Insteon acquired and servers coming back up

[apostolakisl]

Well I can say this.  The name "matter" is just a terrible name.  You should never name something using a word that already means something totally different, especially something as bland as matter.  And then it confounds doing searches on it.  Yes, you can google "matter home automation", but still, for God's sake, just have some imagination and make up a new word.  "Matter", come one, how freakin boring.  The drug companies have this one figured out.  If you ever need a good family dinner entertainment game, play "what's that drug" where each person makes up a name for a drug and the other people have to figure out what the drug theoretically does.

[upstatemike]

3 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I fall into the latter category. With the lack of details on how it improves upon what i have, i don't see the point (from an advanced controller standpoint) other than being able to connect to devices that i may or may not be able to connect to already. To me it's like the "Emperor's new clothes story". Sounds wonderful but with zero details, there's nothing to see

You are completely missing the point!

Matter is going to be great because you don't need so many apps on your phone. You just add a new Matter device using any Matter compatible app and you will be able to configure all of the basic features (like really braindead basic). Of course if you want to adjust any of the advanced features (ie most of the features) you will still need to use the actual manufacturer app for that product... so skip over that one.

But with Matter you won't need a hardware hub for each technology. You just need a Matter "Edge Router" (another name for a hub) to talk to all of your Matter devices. Of course some manufacturers won't put Matter in endpoint devices but will instead put Edge Router functionality into their own hub and let that translate to their native protocol which means you still need all your existing hubs in addition to the official Edge Router hub... so let's skip that one as well.

But Matter will let you control things from multiple platforms at the same time! Imagine if you could control your Hue lights either from the Hue app OR by talking to Alexa... which is pretty much how it works now so skip that too.

What was the point of Matter again?

[larryllix]

39 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

You are completely missing the point!

Matter is going to be great because you don't need so many apps on your phone. You just add a new Matter device using any Matter compatible app and you will be able to configure all of the basic features (like really braindead basic). Of course if you want to adjust any of the advanced features (ie most of the features) you will still need to use the actual manufacturer app for that product... so skip over that one.

But with Matter you won't need a hardware hub for each technology. You just need a Matter "Edge Router" (another name for a hub) to talk to all of your Matter devices. Of course some manufacturers won't put Matter in endpoint devices but will instead put Edge Router functionality into their own hub and let that translate to their native protocol which means you still need all your existing hubs in addition to the official Edge Router hub... so let's skip that one as well.

But Matter will let you control things from multiple platforms at the same time! Imagine if you could control your Hue lights either from the Hue app OR by talking to Alexa... which is pretty much how it works now so skip that too.

What was the point of Matter again?

Sounds like the Wink Hub miracle. Luckily I got my money back after experiencing their app that could connect to many other hubs that could connect to ....

[apostolakisl]

11 hours ago, upstatemike said:

You are completely missing the point!

Matter is going to be great because you don't need so many apps on your phone. You just add a new Matter device using any Matter compatible app and you will be able to configure all of the basic features (like really braindead basic). Of course if you want to adjust any of the advanced features (ie most of the features) you will still need to use the actual manufacturer app for that product... so skip over that one.

But with Matter you won't need a hardware hub for each technology. You just need a Matter "Edge Router" (another name for a hub) to talk to all of your Matter devices. Of course some manufacturers won't put Matter in endpoint devices but will instead put Edge Router functionality into their own hub and let that translate to their native protocol which means you still need all your existing hubs in addition to the official Edge Router hub... so let's skip that one as well.

But Matter will let you control things from multiple platforms at the same time! Imagine if you could control your Hue lights either from the Hue app OR by talking to Alexa... which is pretty much how it works now so skip that too.

What was the point of Matter again?

I appreciate your tongue in cheek response.  As I continue to look at this, I can see that if the format is truly embraced by the manufacturers, they would then use the Matter framework as the sole app to control their device.  A universal GUI if you will.  Matter would sort-of work like an OS where companies write their own "apps", or plug-ins that work inside the Matter framework.  The Matter framework could make this look seamless to the end user, as if all the various manufacturers come together in a single GUI that seems like it is all from one company.

All of this of course would be quite analogous to what UDI is doing with node servers and their app.  UDI just doesn't have the clout and financial backing to drive their product to the fore-front.  

[Dub]

....I will just leave this here

[larryllix]

Isn't Matter just another WiFi in disguise with a new name?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[Dub]

50 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Isn't Matter just another WiFi in disguise with a new name?

From what I understand no.  I understand Matter uses IPv6 addresses, but it doesn't communicate over WiFi.  It uses Thread in the communication layer where WiFi is  It will need the gateway to bridge it to traditional IP networking connect to the internet.  Thread is purpose built smaller data.  An article I'm reading now to verify this says Thread was developed in 2014 by Nest.  Also for what it's worth IPv6 has less overhead than IPv4.  I think IPv6 is a good choice for identifying the device uniquely because there is plenty of capacity and already has an allocation and assignment process vs using something like Insteon ID's that is smaller limit of usable addresses and managed privately.  When I think of WiFi and home automation, I think of WiFi as using something WiFi wasn't designed for in mind, while thread is designed for Home Automation.  You can definitely send similar data traffic over both...but since Thread is made for smaller data it wouldn't support things like streaming, big file downloads, etc...

EDIT:  INFO ADDED:  Also thread is a mesh network which makes it different than a traditional Wi-Fi where dedicated repeaters are needed.  Devices can communicate and repeat directly from each other.  Also Thread is designed to be less power hungry like WiFi which should give better battery life.  It also operates in the same band as Zigbee.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Dub aka WHaas
Info added in Italics

[Dub]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Isn't Matter just another WiFi in disguise with a new name?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

The short version of my response above.

It's more like Zigbee in disguise than WiFi in disguise.

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

....I will just leave this here

oh so it's finally someone else turn to post that..... i've dumped it in a few dozen threads...lol

[Dub]

5 minutes ago, MrBill said:

oh so it's finally someone else turn to post that..... i've dumped it in a few dozen threads...lol

Hahaha.  I wasn’t sure where I had seen it, but it’s absolutely perfect and has stuck with me every time matter comes up!!! Thank you for giving me good material!

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

From what I understand no.  I understand Matter uses IPv6 addresses, but it doesn't communicate over WiFi.  It uses Thread in the communication layer where WiFi is  

I do believe it will use standard wired/wireless IP as well as this thread technology.  Otherwise nothing that is already out there could use it since the "thread" radio would not be there, plus, somewhere, I read that. 

Kind of sounds a lot like Insteon with their low power limited data mesh network, along with a hub (plm + ISY + Node server) all controlled from the ISY phone app now doesn't it?  Basically, if Insteon protocol were to be open sourced, and the PLM/ISY/Node server where all packaged into a single box, then it would pretty much be the same thing.

EDIT: It did occur to me, however, that Insteon protocol doesn't have any security, and I am pretty sure that "thread" does.  So that would be a significant difference.  While I really don't think anyone would ever bother to hack my Insteon network just so they could turn lights on/off, if I had more important things on that network, I would want security.

Edited August 7, 2022 by apostolakisl

[Dub]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

EDIT: It did occur to me, however, that Insteon protocol doesn't have any security, and I am pretty sure that "thread" does.  So that would be a significant difference.  While I really don't think anyone would ever bother to hack my Insteon network just so they could turn lights on/off, if I had more important things on that network, I would want security.

Totally agree with this.  I think it’s more effort than it’s worth to hack an Insteon network. Maybe in a contested area in a multi tenant facility you might have someone that plays around and does it, but most likely those types that want to do that are on IP networks.  I would think it would be more of a targeted attack for an Insteon network.  Matter is supposed to have security built in and here’s something to think on….NAT typically masks our private IPv4 address from the internet and private IPv4 addresses used in our home networks are not even routable to the end device without a static nat translation on a routing device. IPv6 as I understand all addresses are routable and NAT is not used.  A gateway device for the Matter network “should” provide some level of protection if implemented correctly.  But some things to think about that concern me are what happens when we start using IPv6 from our internet providers, and few iterations of Matter….it’s not out of the imagination these devices could be accessed from the internet directly since their IPv6 is a routable address.  The Insteon ID is not routable by itself without a gateway so while there is no security to me it’s 2 different levels of risk.

Edit:  To put this clearly.  Insteon IDs are not routable.  I realized after re-reading it might sound like they are.  Hubs or ISY have to “speak the Insteon language” so their will always be a gateway device like a PLM or Hub translating to the Insteon network from the IP network.  

Edited August 7, 2022 by Dub aka WHaas
Clarification.

[larryllix]

16 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I do believe it will use standard wired/wireless IP as well as this thread technology.  Otherwise nothing that is already out there could use it since the "thread" radio would not be there, plus, somewhere, I read that. 

Kind of sounds a lot like Insteon with their low power limited data mesh network, along with a hub (plm + ISY + Node server) all controlled from the ISY phone app now doesn't it?  Basically, if Insteon protocol were to be open sourced, and the PLM/ISY/Node server where all packaged into a single box, then it would pretty much be the same thing.

EDIT: It did occur to me, however, that Insteon protocol doesn't have any security, and I am pretty sure that "thread" does.  So that would be a significant difference.  While I really don't think anyone would ever bother to hack my Insteon network just so they could turn lights on/off, if I had more important things on that network, I would want security.

I looked at this a year ago or so and came to many conclusions, even with the mystery surrounding the sales hype being put out.

It will mostly be using existing WiFi, once the standard is actually released and exists. Some have already built it into their 2.4GHz router APs.

WiFi6 with mesh will the closest thing to describe it and likely be focused on for it's lower and hardware OSI layer.

Many standards and industry co-operations will likely destroy it, due to no common hardware protocols in place when it is released in devices. Many HA companies will want to use the lower band frequencies for better building penetration, and that may defeat the whole "one for all, and all for one" concept they are attempting to sell it on.

We'll see but IMHO we have been here many times before and all wee see is failing HA protocols, so far. Insteon has faired quite well until lately. Hope...hope...

[RPerrault]

mystery solved

[upstatemike]

So my take away from this conversation is:

1. Matter will provide a common protocol where everything works together so the only differentiator from one product to the next will be price. So Amazon will simply provide cheaper matter devices than anyone else and will soon be the only source for IoT products.

2. The Matter protocol will emphasize security over performance so any group of lights will s l o w l y respond one by one like Z-Wave instead of simultaneously like Hue or Insteon or Lutron.

3. Matter will borrow heavily from Wi-Fi and Zigbee and therefore add congestion to the already overloaded 2.4GHz frequency range while sacrificing the longer range and better material penetration you get from 900MHz or 300MHz based products.

I can't wait!

Edited August 7, 2022 by upstatemike

[RPerrault]

or those without a subscription

https://www.forbes.com/sites/moorinsights/2022/01/11/ces-2022-matter-and-thread-win-the-iot-connectivity-wars/?sh=1dba658d19b1

CES 2022: Matter And Thread Win The IoT Connectivity Wars

Bill Curtis

Contributor

Moor Insights and Strategy

Contributor Group

Jan 11, 2022,05:18pm EST

 

CES 2022 product announcements signal the end of the consumer IoT “connectivity wars” that began over 20 years ago. Two complementary industry standards are transforming the Internet of Things from a hodge-podge of incompatible gadgets into a scalable industry with interoperable, plug-and-play products from multiple suppliers:

1. Matter – “Lingua franca” for the Internet of Things
2. Thread – IP-based mesh network for low power devices

Gold Rush

 

 

With Matter and Thread, consumers can buy connected products such as door locks, window shades, light switches, thermostats, and cameras that plug-and-play with existing Wi-Fi networks and home ecosystems such as Alexa, Google Assistant, HomeKit, and SmartThings. There’s no vendor lock-in, nothing extra to buy, no complicated hub to configure, and setup is a few clicks on a smartphone app. Although this vision sounds too good to be true, the open specifications that make it possible have been in the works for years and are now widely adopted. At CES, big consumer brands and chip companies demonstrated Matter running in real-world devices, dozens of companies announced new products supporting Matter and Thread, and hundreds more are on the way. The trend towards Matter and Thread is rapidly becoming a gold rush as influential companies stake claims. Thread and Matter are eliminating IoT scaling barriers by making multivendor interoperability practical over industry-standard networks using off-the-shelf silicon. Here’s how it all works.

Thread

After eight years of development, Thread is now a first-class wireless device network alongside Wi-Fi. Thread and Wi-Fi carry the same kinds of Internet Protocol messages, but Thread is suitable for low-power devices that run on batteries, even coin cells. Also, Thread is a mesh network. Some Thread devices (typically mains-powered ones) act as routing nodes, automatically extending the network by relaying messages from one device to another. Consequently, a Thread mesh typically has better residential coverage and reliability than Wi-Fi, especially for low-power devices.

Although Thread has been around for years, it has been slow to catch on, partly because it does not specify an “application layer” – a standard set of commands and data formats that enable device communication. Like Wi-Fi, Thread defines the network protocols but not the message content. That’s intentional – it’s a feature, not a bug. Thread is an IP-based network by design, so it is inherently message-agnostic. Your home Wi-Fi router doesn’t care about the content of the messages that flow through it. Those messages can be web pages, audio, video, photos, or documents. Likewise, Thread doesn’t care if you’re sending messages to unlock a door, turn on a light, set the temperature, or raise a window shade. But without a standard that defines the content of those messages, devices from different manufacturers don’t interoperate. That’s where Matter comes in. Matter is an application layer that runs over Thread and other IP-based networks.

 

Matter

Matter, founded two years ago within the Connectivity Standards Alliance, normalizes the messages that flow to and from IoT devices, enabling Matter products from various manufacturers to communicate with one other over Thread, Wi-Fi, and Ethernet. In other words, Matter defines a common language for IoT networking, making multivendor IoT product interoperability practical.

Although creating a lingua franca for residential IoT is a very ambitious project, Matter is likely to succeed because its sponsors include some of the biggest brands in consumer electronics – Amazon, Apple, and Google. These companies, plus over 200 others, agree that removing undifferentiated friction from the IoT marketplace is more important than any perceived competitive advantage from using proprietary networks or messages. So, industry-leading companies have assigned senior-level talent to the project and are already incorporating Matter into consumer product portfolios. This year, the first wave of plug-and-play Matter products hits the market, creating an inflection point in IoT industry growth. Matter is likely to rapidly displace the non-interoperable “walled gardens” that dominate consumer IoT today.

 

Here’s a slightly more technical view of Matter from an IoT device perspective (Figure 1). At the top of the stack, IoT devices and ecosystems send and receive Matter network messages via standard Internet protocols – TCP/IP and UDP, with IPv6 addressing. Wi-Fi and Thread networks deliver these messages to Matter-enabled products. Matter also uses Bluetooth LE to simplify adding nodes to a Matter network via smartphones. With three types of radios and a Matter API, IoT products from any manufacturer can plug and play with other products and ecosystems.

An old argument for using proprietary messaging is that products need differentiating capabilities that are not necessarily part of a universal standard. But how many different ways do we need to set a temperature or turn on a light? The correct answer is “one.” However, some products have unique features that Matter does not define. In these cases, manufacturers are free to define proprietary messages because IP networks do not restrict message content. So, functions common to many products such as transmitting well-known commands and data types and setting up new devices on a network work predictably across all Matter devices without restricting manufacturers from using non-interoperable product-differentiating messages where appropriate.

 

Thread border router

Thread is an integral part of the Matter vision. Although Wi-Fi is great for cameras, thermostats, and other plug-in devices, Thread is better for small, battery-powered things. Low power mesh networks such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Insteon, and others have been around for 20 years, so why do we need another one? The legacy networks do not use IP protocols, so each requires “protocol translation” by a hub or gateway to communicate with the IP-connected world. In contrast, Thread doesn’t need protocol translation because it uses the same IP protocols as Ethernet and Wi-Fi. Therefore, Thread does not need a hub or gateway device. Matter messages are routed directly to any device connected by Wi-Fi, Ethernet, or Thread. 

Thread devices can plug and play on existing home networks, provided that there is at least one Thread border router to act as a bridge between Thread and Wi-Fi (Figure 2). But consumers don’t want to buy and manage another router or hub specifically to enable Thread. Like I said above, we’re trying to get rid of hubs. That’s why Amazon, Apple, Google, and other consumer electronics ecosystems are busy incorporating Thread border router capabilities into new products such as smart speakers, Wi-Fi routers, and TV streaming boxes. With one or more of these devices installed in a home, Thread devices “just work” when first plugged in without special hubs or routers. 

 

Border router silicon

Matter’s success largely depends on the universal availability of popular networked consumer products (such as smart speakers) with built-in Thread border router capabilities. In homes with one or more of these products, Matter-enabled Thread devices plug and play without buying additional hardware. 

Market leaders Amazon, Apple, Google, and others are already shipping a few products with integrated Thread border routers, and many more are on the way for this year. One way to accelerate the growth of Thread and Matter is to reduce the cost and development time for adding Thread border router capabilities to smart-home products. Manufacturers need complete Thread border router subsystems that easily integrate into cost-sensitive consumer products.

Border routers need three radios – Thread (802.15.4, the same radio used by Zigbee), Wi-Fi (for connecting with the home network), and Bluetooth LE (for adding new Thread devices). Although chips and modules for all three of these radios are readily available from many silicon suppliers, integration is surprisingly complicated. For instance, all three radios share the same 2.4GHz ISM band, creating gnarly coexistence problems. Also, developers need software stacks that work together across all three radios, and regulatory certification must be straightforward. A single chip with converged, ready-to-use software stacks would certainly decrease product cost and time-to-market. That brings us to the NXP IW612.

NXP IW612 tri-radio SoC

At CES, NXP announced the IW612 with complete subsystems for Thread (802.15.4), Wi-Fi 6, and Bluetooth LE on a single chip (Figure 3), including RF power amplifiers. Integrating all three radios in a single monolithic SoC addresses the three-radio coexistence challenges while unifying the software stack, reducing the cost and development time for adding Thread border router capabilities to connected products. The chip runs Matter over both Thread and Wi-Fi while using Bluetooth LE for connecting new devices. NXP demonstrated an IW612 based border router at CES 2022. The chip has been sampling since early 2021, with consumer products targeted for 2022. 

NXP IW612 Tri-Radio SoC 

NXP

The IW612 paves the way for universal availability of Thread border routers in every smart home, and we expect similar SoCs from other suppliers in 2022.

Summary

After 20 years of incompatible radios, proprietary protocols, vertical product silos, annoying hub (gateway) devices, bafflingly confusing device onboarding procedures, bewildering shopping experiences, and unnecessarily high device costs, the consumer electronics industry is rapidly adopting two new practical, scalable, and open connectivity standards – Matter and Thread. The vision of buying a smart home device from any manufacturer with confidence that it’ll work with your existing Wi-Fi network and chosen ecosystem(s) is finally becoming a reality. Rapid adoption is likely because Amazon, Apple, Google, and over 200 companies are on board and announcing products. 

Let the gold rush begin!

 

 

[RPerrault]

for those interested in the architecture

https://www.nxp.com/products/wireless/wi-fi-plus-bluetooth/2-4-5-ghz-dual-band-1x1-wi-fi-6-802-11ax-plus-bluetooth-5-2-plus-802-15-4-tri-radio-solution:IW612

no subscription needed

 

[Dub]

28 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

1. Matter will provide a common protocol where everything works together so the only differentiator from one product to the next will be price. So Amazon will simply provide cheaper matter devices than anyone else and will soon be the only source for IoT products.

Not to split hairs on this one and I think you get it, but technically what I read Matter is at the Application layer.  I'm thinking of the OSI model where Protocol is in a different layer, but there are so many terms it is easy for the conversationto get complicated.

30 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

2. The Matter protocol will emphasize security over performance so any group of lights will s l o w l y respond one by one like Z-Wave instead of simultaneously like Hue or Insteon or Lutron.

I don't know that this has really been addressed in detail, but to me more of the modern products tend to be more secure than older.  Emphasizing over performance I don't know.  I don't think anyone will address the popcorn effect and Matter because it may be up to the individual manufacturers. I think we messaged about that earlier in the thread.  I read today that Hue will be upgradeable to Matter, but their Wiz lights wont be.  I'm guessing it is the difference in the Zigbee vs non-Zigbee product.  The fact that Hue can do it should to me mean it is possible, whether it is important to manufacturers or not, who knows....Now that I get its an application layer technology, more than anything, it will probably be up to the manufacturer since its more about communication than common feature sets.  For the record I hate the popcorn effect and will spend more to not deal with it.

33 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

3. Matter will borrow heavily from Wi-Fi and Zigbee and therefore add congestion to the already overloaded 2.4GHz frequency range while sacrificing the longer range and better material penetration you get from 900MHz or 300MHz based products.

I think if folks aren't careful and buy things with WiFi radios that are for Matter this is entirely possible.  If they stay on the Thread radio, I don't see how there could be any affect.  I think the bigger issue to this point is one more thing to troubleshoot....Is it a Matter device, ok is it my WiFi network, is the BLE, is it the Thread radio???? Who knows....

I'm gonna use a term a heard recently...Confusionopoly.  Creating so many choices consumers can't identify clearly what the differences are and they spend more money.🤣  I think a good slogan for Matter is "It doesn't matter". Could be taken either way!!

I worked with @Athlonrecently through us upgrading our Z-Wave switch firmware so ramp rates for on and off could be used with Progarms/Scene/Automations and Voice, not just at the paddle.  This was frustrating to think a manufacturer releasing a product that wasn't capable of this basic functionality, that in Insteon world works right out of the box(Not arguing for locked firmware).  This was a little preview to me of what we can expect with Matter.  I may be totally wrong and hope I am, but is Matter just another product with planned obsolescence and confusion....to force more upgrades later.  

Personally I like to get a few product types that work well and stick with them, but as I said in an earlier post, I wont let my apprehension about Matter affect me wanting the capability in my eisy(when I get it).

 

[RPerrault]

4 minutes ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

Not to split hairs on this one and I think you get it, but technically what I read Matter is at the Application layer.  I'm thinking of the OSI model where Protocol is in a different layer, but there are so many terms it is easy for the conversationto get complicated.

 

see block diagram above

i think we all have different definitions of the word protocol here - and the word matter

matter uses existing network technology to deliver packets to the application - technically, matter is the application layer - people use the term to refer to all the layers

insteon is the same

[Dub]

8 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

i think we all have different definitions of the word protocol here - and the word matter

Totally agree and appreciate you sharing the drawing that’s what got me to looking at it in more detail before posting.  It’s close to the OSI model but really the drawing looks a mix between the OSI and TCP/IP model. Confusionopoly.🤣

 

[apostolakisl]

So, I think I get it.  But some of this is just academic.  The fact that thread uses IP means that there need be no "hub".  But you still have to have a "border router" to connect it to the traditional wifi/ethernet IP backbone or your phone/tablet/pc will never know it is there.  So some products will have a border router built-in.  Basically, this is a hub built into a product that also does something else.  And what if you have multiple devices with built-in border routers?  Must you designate one to do the job, or will you get multiple devices all trying to relay the same message from thread to wifi/ethernet?  Functionally, I see no difference between a device (like say an Echo) with a built-in edge router and having a PolISY or Eisy with a built-in PLM.  The main difference would be that each device is its own IP labeled target vs the entire system of pieces (light switches on your ISY) being a single IP target with the content of the message defining the individual device rather than the IP label.  But the end-user should be oblivious to this. 

Assuming UD adds some of the final pieces to the phone app, adding an Insteon device would, for example, involve opening the app, clicking add device, then clicking the button on the device.  As far as I can tell, with Matter/Thread, you would do the exact same thing using a Matter phone app.  

It just keeps coming back to me seeing only one real difference, and that is that Insteon mesh is not encrypted.  Otherwise, the whole thing is all about the quality of the phone app.  

So, who is it that writes the phone app for Matter?  Will there be lots of competing apps where each app is completely under the control of that developer?  Will there be a generic Matter backbone app that each device manufacturer creates a plug-in with the specifics of their device?  It could get very messy.  Like if you have a bunch of lights all from different companies but you want to control them all with a single button.  I know how ISY/UDI handles that, but how will Matter handle it?

[Dub]

13 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

So, who is it that writes the phone app for Matter?  Will there be lots of competing apps where each app is completely under the control of that developer? 

My understanding is anyone can write the app.  Seriously in some links its called an Application Standard and in others it's called a Home Automation Protocol. Confusionopoly. I think you will see lots of communication apps from vendors and independent software developers too.  One other point I read is that Matter will let the hardware manufacturers do what they do best is make hardware and don't have to worry about about the software. Right now there is an official Hue App but several other Apps that work with Philips Hue.  It will be more like that if the vision is completed.

18 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

It could get very messy.  Like if you have a bunch of lights all from different companies but you want to control them all with a single button.  I know how ISY/UDI handles that, but how will Matter handle it?

I think that is one of the points that makes more technical folks like on UDI forums more apprehensive about the standard for the masses, where some sub Reddits it will be the end all be all.

With eisy and the UDI user base it will just be another thing we can communicate with and control.

[upstatemike]

So my take away from the above is:

1 I probably misused the term protocol when I should just say platform to identify a particular technology.

2 While it is possible for a routed technology to avoid the popcorn effect it would take some attention from the manufacturer to prioritize that and none have published any intent of addressing it. Insteon being a broadcast technology avoids the issue automatically.

3 Popcorn effect really really really sucks and we need better channels to communicate to manufacturers that fixing this is important. I suggest any device sold on Amazon deserves a question about smooth group actions to deliberately emabarrass any product manufacturer who did not make an effort to provide this in their offering.

4 Most of the benefits of Matter will only be realized when end point devices speak Matter natively (so plan to replace everything you have). The kluge of having a hub do translation is just a way to get by in the near term.

5 Products like Lutron, Insteon, Hue, Broadlink Fastcon. and Yolink LoRa, will do a bare minimum Matter integration to get the logo but will otherwise ignore it as it provides less advantages to consumers than the native versions of those products.

 

 

[RPerrault]

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

So, I think I get it.  But some of this is just academic. 

more conceptual

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

The fact that thread uses IP means that there need be no "hub".  But you still have to have a "border router" to connect it to the traditional wifi/ethernet IP backbone or your phone/tablet/pc will never know it is there. 

see the link i posted to nxp - wifi is part of their chip - buy that chip to put in your light switch and you can choose how you want to communicate - or i suppose, all 3

from the forbes post

"Thread devices can plug and play on existing home networks, provided that there is at least one Thread border router to act as a bridge between Thread and Wi-Fi (Figure 2). But consumers don’t want to buy and manage another router or hub specifically to enable Thread. Like I said above, we’re trying to get rid of hubs. That’s why Amazon, Apple, Google, and other consumer electronics ecosystems are busy incorporating Thread border router capabilities into new products such as smart speakers, Wi-Fi routers, and TV streaming boxes. With one or more of these devices installed in a home, Thread devices “just work” when first plugged in without special hubs or routers."

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

So some products will have a border router built-in.  Basically, this is a hub built into a product that also does something else.  And what if you have multiple devices with built-in border routers?  Must you designate one to do the job, or will you get multiple devices all trying to relay the same message from thread to wifi/ethernet? 

one hub is needed - buy another single function device if you want - as above - to act as a bridge between Thread and Wi-Fi

how does insteon prevent eternal rebroadcasts? (hop counts) - how does any network prevent it?  not a wheel that has to be reinvented

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

Functionally, I see no difference between a device (like say an Echo) with a built-in edge router and having a PolISY or Eisy with a built-in PLM.

insteon lost - it is not part of 'matter' - a matter border hub will not talk to insteon - if you want that, build a hub that can ride both the insteon network and the existing network options matter embraced - insteon might make one - but unless they license out something, it won't be - bridging the network is just one part of that hub - still have to address the application layer (something ud has brilliantly done for us with z-wave)

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

It just keeps coming back to me seeing only one real difference, and that is that Insteon mesh is not encrypted.  Otherwise, the whole thing is all about the quality of the phone app.  

here is one - i have a wifi network - i can spend money on other things as opposed to 'building out' insteon and z-wave and zigbig - i have a matter border router already - added 3 cents to the cost of something i was already buying 

as i understand it, matter won't have a phone app - so the pretty and function of whatever matter compatible phone app you choose is up to you - at least there will be competition 

1 hour ago, apostolakisl said:

So, who is it that writes the phone app for Matter?  Will there be lots of competing apps where each app is completely under the control of that developer?  Will there be a generic Matter backbone app that each device manufacturer creates a plug-in with the specifics of their device?  It could get very messy.  Like if you have a bunch of lights all from different companies but you want to control them all with a single button.  I know how ISY/UDI handles that, but how will Matter handle it?

insteon lost - not in matter - i doubt insteon will have the time and resources to be matter compatible - best hope is ud for that - their new z-wave device (not matter either) also has zigbig (which i am unsure if it is formally part of thread) - but their new devices have wifi (i think) and ethernet - if they can use those interfaces to matter, they can be in the game (with a TON of work to get there)

yes, you will be able to control a ge and lutron (when they make one) with one button

if you want the how, that has been speculated about - but at the matter level, brand won't be concerned with the brand - if they are dimmers, command 41a will be sent to both devices - those devices will either know that 41a means dim or convert 41a to ge or lutron dim command - or have matter send the command to your ge hub or lutron hub to convert 41a to lutron or ge and deliver the packet

i think its interesting to speculate on how matter will overcome the obstacles but i know this - no obstacle presented here is something matter has not thought of and overcome 

[RPerrault]

10 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

2 While it is possible for a routed technology to avoid the popcorn effect it would take some attention from the manufacturer to prioritize that and none have published any intent of addressing it. Insteon being a broadcast technology avoids the issue automatically.

multicasting?