RPerrault Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 37 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: The RF is tied to the power line signal. With that said, the power line signal travels faster than the RF so RF only will be a tad slower. how?
apostolakisl Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 3 hours ago, upstatemike said: @apostolakisl 1) I think they need to use the existing line, already UL approved and tooled at the factory, as a quick way to resume cash flow but I think both the look and the feature set will need to be refreshed ASAP to give new customers a reason to consider Insteon. 2) I agree on licensing but it might be hard to find anybody who wants to at this point, especially if there is much of a fee involved. (Of course without the revenue from licensing there is not much reason to do it.) 3) Maybe a compromise is a dealer network that can do firmware upgrades without trying to support the headache of letting end users do it. 4) PLC is the magic bullet that lets you add devices anywhere without "building out" a radio path to remote devices. It is already in the protocol, it just needs to be marketed better. I don't buy the theory that PLC interferance degrades RF communication. 5) Specialty items are great but it is more important for them to get profitable at this point so I don't see them tying up capital in low volume products right away. If they do invest in specialty devices it should be strategic such as a new Fanlinc module that is the size of a Micro Module so you can actually fit it in an existing electrical box. Competing protocols still don't have a viable offering to address the need to control both fan and light in a location that wasn't wired for it. 6) Insteon has always had a "cut off our nose to spite our face" attitude when it comes to UDI. I have always wondered what the real story is behind that and I don't know if things will change. It would also be interesting to know why the UDI purchase offer was rejected... did this group of "users" really have a better offer? Or was it just "No to UDI no matter what"? 1) Not sure why you need a "fresh" look. Nearly every home built in the US uses decora or toggle style switch. If people wanted something else, then regular switch manufacturers would be changing up the look as well. While there are some "fresh" switches out there, once you commit to one of those, you have committed to all of them. . . from now on. And who wants that? What happens when that company decides to "freshen up" again and stop selling that old design, now you have to redo all of them or have a mismatch. Also, what if you just want a select few switches? Standards exist for a reason, and mix and match between brands is a major selling point. The only folks doing these "fresh" style switches are the ones spending $100k+ on HA with 100% of their home on the system . . . like maybe Crestron. 5) That is my point. The specialty items drive profit in the non-specialty items. You can't make a profit on the profitable switches when you don't close the deal for any switches because you failed to sell the buyer on the system as a whole. It is a major angle for marketing to show all these devices to the prospective customer and say, "see, this system can handle all of your current and future needs like no other brand". 1
RPerrault Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, RPerrault said: the controller can report what it sees and made available by the protocol with network problems - for problem isolation - a tool for powerline and rf communications that captures traffic would solve lots of problems without the guessing and theories - like a sniffer or wireshark that is not the responsibility of ud to make one - i am npt bashing ud or insteon someone posted a thread on how to make your own rf antenna that can capture the rf signals - i think it can provide some formatting too - and i suppose an oscilloscope could capture powerline signals it would be interesting to see the traffic which is a big plus when an existing open standard is used and not being held hostage to proprietary protocols - one reason i think matter would be a good thing for ha
lilyoyo1 Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, RPerrault said: how? In dual band devices, timing is still based off the zero crossing regardless of how transmitted.
MrBill Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 1 hour ago, upstatemike said: Interesting. I guess there is a link. I'm still not in favor of RF only over dual band though. neither am I. But a better system than it is now. And @apostolakisl can no longer test... the noisy deep fryer bit the dust, the replacement doesn't create the problem.
lilyoyo1 Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 22 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: 1) Not sure why you need a "fresh" look. Nearly every home built in the US uses decora or toggle style switch. If people wanted something else, then regular switch manufacturers would be changing up the look as well. While there are some "fresh" switches out there, once you commit to one of those, you have committed to all of them. . . from now on. And who wants that? What happens when that company decides to "freshen up" again and stop selling that old design, now you have to redo all of them or have a mismatch. Also, what if you just want a select few switches? Standards exist for a reason, and mix and match between brands is a major selling point. The only folks doing these "fresh" style switches are the ones spending $100k+ on HA with 100% of their home on the system . . . like maybe Crestron. 5) That is my point. The specialty items drive profit in the non-specialty items. You can't make a profit on the profitable switches when you don't close the deal for any switches because you failed to sell the buyer on the system as a whole. It is a major angle for marketing to show all these devices to the prospective customer and say, "see, this system can handle all of your current and future needs like no other brand". It amazes me that so many folks on here complained about insteon and lack of changes but yet, all want things to stay the same as they used to be. If insteons look was that fresh, they never would've struggled (even before COVID). People would've been snapping them up and business would've boomed. Yes, nearly every home in the US uses toggle or decora style switches. However, it must be said that those swapping them out want something better than the standard fare. It's nice to keep things the same for existing users but how does that help long term growth? Existing users are already capped out for the most part. How many devices would they really purchase that would be sustainable for long term viability? Both old and new users OTOH would purchase multiple devices in order to rebuild their networks which means more sales over time. At one point, insteon did have great looking devices but it's grown stale when compared to other offerings. With looks being subjective, that does minimize the debate. However there are some things that can be quantified such as how a device feels and responds. Compared to zooz and the Nokia devices, build quality is much better on those. Switch response is as well. No cheap sounding click when a device is operated. Also, devices are much quieter when pressed. No super bright LEDs that needs to constantly changed because they're too bright in a dark room in addition to the understated classical elegance both bring to a home. The last part allows for easier integration into any decor. Refreshes happen all the time. That's how companies re-energize their base to get them to upgrade and attract new customers. That's why today's cars look nothing like they did 20 years ago. Home interiors are designed differently today than they were 10 years ago. Ditto for TV's, appliances, etc. Hell, even apple will redesign the iphone after a couple of years. 1
RPerrault Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: In dual band devices, timing is still based off the zero crossing regardless of how transmitted. not sure i see the relation
Techman Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 @lilyoyo1 You should post a copy of your comments and concerns on Ken Fairbanks comment page. He's soliciting feedback Here's the link Tell us what you think — Insteon 1
upstatemike Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 2 hours ago, MrBill said: neither am I. But a better system than it is now. And @apostolakisl can no longer test... the noisy deep fryer bit the dust, the replacement doesn't create the problem. Best possible outcome! 1 1
lilyoyo1 Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 2 hours ago, RPerrault said: not sure i see the relation If RF is waiting for a clear zero crossing, then the signal would not be sent to another device causing delays. This is why you see people with responders still not communicating with a controlling device properly even when in RF range
LFMc Posted June 12, 2022 Posted June 12, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Techman said: @lilyoyo1 You should post a copy of your comments and concerns on Ken Fairbanks comment page. He's soliciting feedback Here's the link Tell us what you think — Insteon Everyone on this forum that use an ISY or Polisy and Insteon should post immediately on this link. They are asking for input. Keep your input concise and focused on the benefit UDI brings to the success and longevity of Insteon and how much Insteon needs to support UDI and make the PLM available, improved and/or licensed to UDI. If enough of us do this we may get their attention and move this issue up their priority list. They want to know what will help make Insteon successful, so tell them and let them know you want to continue to buy from them. I would avoid a long laundry list and it will only water down our primary focus on Insteon's success by partnering with UDI. Make your voice heard! Edited June 12, 2022 by LFMc 4
RPerrault Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: If RF is waiting for a clear zero crossing, then the signal would not be sent to another device causing delays. This is why you see people with responders still not communicating with a controlling device properly even when in RF range not following a 'clear' powerline or rf zero crossing?
mwester Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, RPerrault said: not following a 'clear' powerline or rf zero crossing? The voltage on the powerline reverses direction, aka "alternates" -- hence "AC" or Alternating Current. If one plots the voltage over time, it forms a sine wave, with peaks at about 170 volts positive and 170 volts negative (the "average" -- actually RMS -- value is about 120 volts). The Insteon power-line signal is injected onto the power line during the period where the signal crosses the zero volts mark -- it's at this point in time that it's: a) easiest to synchronize all receiving devices so that they're listening at the correct point in time, and b) the relatively weak Insteon signal (a few volts) is more easily discerned. The Insteon power-line system doesn't know anything about "clear", whatever that might mean -- the only thing it knows is the zero-crossing point occurring at about the right time according to its internal timers. This has worked well up until the last decade or so, since the "purity" of that zero-crossing (meaning that it is both unambiguously detectable and at the correct time) was preserved by most transformer-equipped power supplies, and of course incandescent light bulbs had no effect on the waveform either. What's changed in the past decade is that switching power-supplies have become ubiquitious. And these devices have characteristics that distort the sine wave, making the zero-crossing point difficult to detect and even appearing to "jitter" around, showing up at the wrong times. Insteon devices on the power line get quite confused by this. None of the above has anything to do with RF. Unfortunately, though, it seems the *implementation* of the dual-band devices connected the RF and the power-line, at least in terms of timing. For some reason, when the devices get the timing on the electrical line messed up due to inability to find the exact zero-crossing point, they also seem to lose the ability to correct decode incoming RF signals. Perhaps they also mess up sending the RF -- I'm not sure anyone has studied that too much. Note that the dual-band devices were designed before switching supplies became part of pretty much everything in the home, including each and every LED light bulb, so one can't really blame the designers. It was less than ideal, and I'm sure they knew their implementation was flawed, but it probably saved a few dollars and worked well enough. The point is that the RF/Powerline interconnect thing is almost certainly solveable, if someone was willing to do so. Net of all this: the modern electrical system in a typical house is no longer suitable for Insteon's power-line signal and that same electrical system effectively renders Insteon's RF implementation unreliable as well. This can be fixed. Let's see if anyone in the new Insteon management will do so. 4 1
apostolakisl Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: It amazes me that so many folks on here complained about insteon and lack of changes but yet, all want things to stay the same as they used to be. If insteons look was that fresh, they never would've struggled (even before COVID). People would've been snapping them up and business would've boomed. Yes, nearly every home in the US uses toggle or decora style switches. However, it must be said that those swapping them out want something better than the standard fare. It's nice to keep things the same for existing users but how does that help long term growth? Existing users are already capped out for the most part. How many devices would they really purchase that would be sustainable for long term viability? Both old and new users OTOH would purchase multiple devices in order to rebuild their networks which means more sales over time. At one point, insteon did have great looking devices but it's grown stale when compared to other offerings. With looks being subjective, that does minimize the debate. However there are some things that can be quantified such as how a device feels and responds. Compared to zooz and the Nokia devices, build quality is much better on those. Switch response is as well. No cheap sounding click when a device is operated. Also, devices are much quieter when pressed. No super bright LEDs that needs to constantly changed because they're too bright in a dark room in addition to the understated classical elegance both bring to a home. The last part allows for easier integration into any decor. Refreshes happen all the time. That's how companies re-energize their base to get them to upgrade and attract new customers. That's why today's cars look nothing like they did 20 years ago. Home interiors are designed differently today than they were 10 years ago. Ditto for TV's, appliances, etc. Hell, even apple will redesign the iphone after a couple of years. Kind of a jump from saying I want a decora switch appearance to wanting everything to "stay the same". Perhaps you want to tear out every single switch in your house, even the ones that get used once per year (or less), have absolutely no need in the world to automate, just so it LOOKS "fresh", but not me. I mean seriously, I just want regular looking switches that work great, not "fresh" looking switches that may or may not work great. And I don't want to replace every switch in my house to avoid a mish mash of switch appearance. I'm not interested in impressing my visitors with some weird *** looking switch that they never saw before and need a tutorial on how to use, I just want switches that work great and that don't require replacing all 300 switches in my house, even the 200 I barely use. And once you go for this "fresh" look, you are at the whim of THAT manufacturer, who may stop making that look or just go out of business. If Insteon fails this time, it may actually be the end, and that isn't the end of the world, I'll keep my Insteon switches, which look like decora, and replace them with other switches as they fail that also look like decora and could be made by anybody. I mean, if it were to happen that some industry consortium comes out with some new style and they all agree to adopt it, OK, that might work, basically that is how decora came to be 50 years ago or whatever it was. But if Insteon stops decora and starts some unique looking thing, I will be moving on. And the bulk of new customers who might want a 5 or 10 switches, or might want to just try it out and see if they like it, won't ever buy the first one cause it won't match. 2
lilyoyo1 Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: Kind of a jump from saying I want a decora switch appearance to wanting everything to "stay the same". Perhaps you want to tear out every single switch in your house, even the ones that get used once per year (or less), have absolutely no need in the world to automate, just so it LOOKS "fresh", but not me. I mean seriously, I just want regular looking switches that work great, not "fresh" looking switches that may or may not work great. And I don't want to replace every switch in my house to avoid a mish mash of switch appearance. I'm not interested in impressing my visitors with some weird *** looking switch that they never saw before and need a tutorial on how to use, I just want switches that work great and that don't require replacing all 300 switches in my house, even the 200 I barely use. And once you go for this "fresh" look, you are at the whim of THAT manufacturer, who may stop making that look or just go out of business. If Insteon fails this time, it may actually be the end, and that isn't the end of the world, I'll keep my Insteon switches, which look like decora, and replace them with other switches as they fail that also look like decora and could be made by anybody. I mean, if it were to happen that some industry consortium comes out with some new style and they all agree to adopt it, OK, that might work, basically that is how decora came to be 50 years ago or whatever it was. But if Insteon stops decora and starts some unique looking thing, I will be moving on. And the bulk of new customers who might want a 5 or 10 switches, or might want to just try it out and see if they like it, won't ever buy the first one cause it won't match. I'm not understanding your point. Regardless of what you use, you are at the mercy of any mfg. that you buy from. No one is saying you have to rip anything out. If insteon wasn't purchased what would people have done? By keeping the same underlying technology to a point, a person can slowly upgrade over time while keeping the core system intact. If a person doesn't want to upgrade- their devices still work. With 300 devices and 200 you barely use- are you really sounding like a customer that insteon can depend on to keep them in business? From a business standpoint, you're a supportive customer but they've made what they're going to make from you with the old stuff. What benefit do they have to gain but rehashing the same stuff to keep you happy? Sure, you may replace devices over time, but that's not enough. It's the new customers with nothing that matter more to future growth At what point did I say insteon (or anyone) would create a weird looking switch? You can still create fresh new look without changing the form factor of something. Look at phones. They're still a rectangular slab. By changing a few design elements, they've kept them modern and with the times. Most of the stuff out there (including Nokia) are still decora style switches. Those buying 5 or 10 switches to "try out" would still have different switches until fully swapped so it doesnt matter.
ryarber Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 When Jobs came back to apple, he dramatically simplified their product line. He eliminated many of their machines and eventually only had 4 minimally configurable machines that focused on different target markets. He took them from bankruptcy to the most valuable company in the world. As he forced them to refocus, they eventually added new product lines. He also ended the Mac clone market that was killing the company and producing lower cost, inferior products. Bottom line is that Insteon needs to refocus on what they are best at first. It seems to me that there has been far more innovation in the z wave world with updatable devices, new updated chips/protocols, improved range, etc. There should be some R&D put in to improving the reliability, upgradability, as well as the look and feel of their base offerings. For them to survive, they have to become profitable quickly. Therefore, hubs need to be on subscription. Hubs will also eventually need to work with Matter and Thread. I imagine that won’t come cheap either. If it were me, I’d probably limit initial offerings to high volume devices eg PLMs, switchlincs, keypadlincs, mini remotes, plug in modules, outdoor on/off switches, motion sensors, and IOLincs. I’d probably put fanlinc, micro modules, open/close sensors, LED bulbs, and ballasts on the back burner for now. Any licensing of the technology would be for specific purposes when someone could bring something valuable to the protocol (eg UD). And not to someone who would be competing with me on everything I sold.
RPerrault Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 9 hours ago, mwester said: The voltage on the powerline reverses direction, aka "alternates" -- hence "AC" or Alternating Current. If one plots the voltage over time, it forms a sine wave, with peaks at about 170 volts positive and 170 volts negative (the "average" -- actually RMS -- value is about 120 volts). The Insteon power-line signal is injected onto the power line during the period where the signal crosses the zero volts mark -- it's at this point in time that it's: a) easiest to synchronize all receiving devices so that they're listening at the correct point in time, and b) the relatively weak Insteon signal (a few volts) is more easily discerned. The Insteon power-line system doesn't know anything about "clear", whatever that might mean -- the only thing it knows is the zero-crossing point occurring at about the right time according to its internal timers. This has worked well up until the last decade or so, since the "purity" of that zero-crossing (meaning that it is both unambiguously detectable and at the correct time) was preserved by most transformer-equipped power supplies, and of course incandescent light bulbs had no effect on the waveform either. What's changed in the past decade is that switching power-supplies have become ubiquitious. And these devices have characteristics that distort the sine wave, making the zero-crossing point difficult to detect and even appearing to "jitter" around, showing up at the wrong times. Insteon devices on the power line get quite confused by this. None of the above has anything to do with RF. Unfortunately, though, it seems the *implementation* of the dual-band devices connected the RF and the power-line, at least in terms of timing. For some reason, when the devices get the timing on the electrical line messed up due to inability to find the exact zero-crossing point, they also seem to lose the ability to correct decode incoming RF signals. Perhaps they also mess up sending the RF -- I'm not sure anyone has studied that too much. Note that the dual-band devices were designed before switching supplies became part of pretty much everything in the home, including each and every LED light bulb, so one can't really blame the designers. It was less than ideal, and I'm sure they knew their implementation was flawed, but it probably saved a few dollars and worked well enough. The point is that the RF/Powerline interconnect thing is almost certainly solveable, if someone was willing to do so. Net of all this: the modern electrical system in a typical house is no longer suitable for Insteon's power-line signal and that same electrical system effectively renders Insteon's RF implementation unreliable as well. This can be fixed. Let's see if anyone in the new Insteon management will do so. Thanks! i knew there was a real nerd out there somewhere. thanks for taking the time to reply
lilyoyo1 Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, ryarber said: When Jobs came back to apple, he dramatically simplified their product line. He eliminated many of their machines and eventually only had 4 minimally configurable machines that focused on different target markets. He took them from bankruptcy to the most valuable company in the world. As he forced them to refocus, they eventually added new product lines. He also ended the Mac clone market that was killing the company and producing lower cost, inferior products. Bottom line is that Insteon needs to refocus on what they are best at first. It seems to me that there has been far more innovation in the z wave world with updatable devices, new updated chips/protocols, improved range, etc. There should be some R&D put in to improving the reliability, upgradability, as well as the look and feel of their base offerings. For them to survive, they have to become profitable quickly. Therefore, hubs need to be on subscription. Hubs will also eventually need to work with Matter and Thread. I imagine that won’t come cheap either. If it were me, I’d probably limit initial offerings to high volume devices eg PLMs, switchlincs, keypadlincs, mini remotes, plug in modules, outdoor on/off switches, motion sensors, and IOLincs. I’d probably put fanlinc, micro modules, open/close sensors, LED bulbs, and ballasts on the back burner for now. Any licensing of the technology would be for specific purposes when someone could bring something valuable to the protocol (eg UD). And not to someone who would be competing with me on everything I sold. The Nokia line included everything you stated except for matter support which can probably be added Edited June 13, 2022 by lilyoyo1
ryarber Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: The Nokia line included everything you stated except for matter support which can probably be added That line is not backward compatible with Insteon, is it? I was speaking to Insteon viability. Now, Insteon has a competitor for hardware using their own protocols.
elvisimprsntr Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 That line is not backward compatible with Insteon, is it?Backwards compatible with Insteon RFhttps://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=23986&share_tid=34472&share_pid=324881&url=https://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?/topic/34472-Insteon-Replacement%3F/page__view__findpost__p__324881&share_type=t&link_source=app
apostolakisl Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 12 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: I'm not understanding your point. Regardless of what you use, you are at the mercy of any mfg. that you buy from. No one is saying you have to rip anything out. If insteon wasn't purchased what would people have done? By keeping the same underlying technology to a point, a person can slowly upgrade over time while keeping the core system intact. If a person doesn't want to upgrade- their devices still work. With 300 devices and 200 you barely use- are you really sounding like a customer that insteon can depend on to keep them in business? From a business standpoint, you're a supportive customer but they've made what they're going to make from you with the old stuff. What benefit do they have to gain but rehashing the same stuff to keep you happy? Sure, you may replace devices over time, but that's not enough. It's the new customers with nothing that matter more to future growth At what point did I say insteon (or anyone) would create a weird looking switch? You can still create fresh new look without changing the form factor of something. Look at phones. They're still a rectangular slab. By changing a few design elements, they've kept them modern and with the times. Most of the stuff out there (including Nokia) are still decora style switches. Those buying 5 or 10 switches to "try out" would still have different switches until fully swapped so it doesnt matter. You are not at the mercy of the manufacturer if they build to a standard, that standard would be decora. I can put "dumb" decora switches in, z-wave, or any number of probably 1000 different brands that make a decora style switch. What is behind the paddle can be lots of things, but the look should continue to be decora. I don't want a "fresh" look. It will soon be dated and it won't match anything else, not today, not tomorrow, not ever. I have no idea what you have in your mind that is a "fresh" look, that I could mix and match with my other decora switches that won't look like a patch job. And to say that Insteon is done with me as a customer is just a bizarre thought. I would venture to guess that people like me were their best customers on an ongoing basis. I probably spent on average $500+/year with them for years on end. The vast majority of HA people did not set out to automate their entire house. I didn't. I started with about 10 or so. Give them something that swaps out with their current switch and doesn't stick out like a patch job or they aren't going to buy it. At least in the early days, Insteon (and to some extent x-10) were the only products that you could ease your way into. The protocols main feature was just that, it worked over standard wiring. Now there are others, like z-wave, but it still holds. Heck, google "zwave switch" and search the "images" section. They pretty much all look like decora. There is a reason for that. If Insteon wants to go the way of Crestron and make it an all or none home setup, then fine, but good luck with that. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: You are not at the mercy of the manufacturer if they build to a standard, that standard would be decora. I can put "dumb" decora switches in, z-wave, or any number of probably 1000 different brands that make a decora style switch. What is behind the paddle can be lots of things, but the look should continue to be decora. I don't want a "fresh" look. It will soon be dated and it won't match anything else, not today, not tomorrow, not ever. I have no idea what you have in your mind that is a "fresh" look, that I could mix and match with my other decora switches that won't look like a patch job. And to say that Insteon is done with me as a customer is just a bizarre thought. I would venture to guess that people like me were their best customers on an ongoing basis. I probably spent on average $500+/year with them for years on end. The vast majority of HA people did not set out to automate their entire house. I didn't. I started with about 10 or so. Give them something that swaps out with their current switch and doesn't stick out like a patch job or they aren't going to buy it. At least in the early days, Insteon (and to some extent x-10) were the only products that you could ease your way into. The protocols main feature was just that, it worked over standard wiring. Now there are others, like z-wave, but it still holds. Heck, google "zwave switch" and search the "images" section. They pretty much all look like decora. There is a reason for that. If Insteon wants to go the way of Crestron and make it an all or none home setup, then fine, but good luck with that. What are you talking about? Who said anything about a switch not looking like a switch (decora or toggle)? Even your comparison to Crestron! You're arguing stuff that no on has said Just like smartphones, you can still make decora switches that carry a premium look and feel. An example is lutron's sunnata dimmers/switches.The Nokia line design carries a classic look that's elegant at the same time. Ditto for Control 4 and Savant. There are many other switches out there as well with unique designs (some better than others). Read for context not argument. I didn't say they're done with you as a customer. I stated that with you having 300 devices in your home (with 200 that you barely use) the likelihood of you buying more in such a way to be sustainable (for them) is greatly diminished. They are better off focusing on new customers as well as giving new customers something to be excited over so they can upgrade. Edited June 13, 2022 by lilyoyo1
lilyoyo1 Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, ryarber said: That line is not backward compatible with Insteon, is it? I was speaking to Insteon viability. Now, Insteon has a competitor for hardware using their own protocols. Yes. They had created a new line and licensed Nokia's name. They shut down before releasing it. There is no competition making insteon devices at this time. It uses the same code and can be manually added to existing switches. Should UDI get their hands on the developer documents and add them to the Isy, you could use them in native insteon scenes just like normal insteon devices Edited June 13, 2022 by lilyoyo1
ryarber Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, elvisimprsntr said: Backwards compatible with Insteon RFhttps://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=23986&share_tid=34472&share_pid=324881&url=https://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?/topic/34472-Insteon-Replacement%3F/page__view__findpost__p__324881&share_type=t&link_source=app Thanks for that. I hadn’t seen that before. A couple questions… did they bring anything to market under Nokia name? If not, could that potential be lessened by the current group buying Insteon/SH? It seems as if Smartlabs must have realized there were insurmountable issues with dual mode mesh and they abandoned power line technology. Should we expect new devices from Insteon to be RF only? The Nokia spec has 2.4GHz as well as Bluetooth. That sounds like Thread compatibility.
apostolakisl Posted June 13, 2022 Posted June 13, 2022 39 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: What are you talking about? Who said anything about a switch not looking like a switch (decora or toggle)? Even your comparison to Crestron! You're arguing stuff that no on has said Just like smartphones, you can still make decora switches that carry a premium look and feel. An example is lutron's sunnata dimmers/switches.The Nokia line design carries a classic look that's elegant at the same time. Ditto for Control 4 and Savant. There are many other switches out there as well with unique designs (some better than others). Read for context not argument. I didn't say they're done with you as a customer. I stated that with you having 300 devices in your home (with 200 that you barely use) the likelihood of you buying more in such a way to be sustainable (for them) is greatly diminished. They are better off focusing on new customers as well as giving new customers something to be excited over so they can upgrade. The vast majority of businesses know their best customers are their current customers. I'm sure any marketing consultant that Insteon might hire at this point would focus heavily on the current customer base. Repeat business is the cheapest to attain and repeat customers also tend to be referral sources. You already have their email, delivery address, and you market to them for basically free. The cost of attaining new customers is generally significant tp the bottom line, especially in consumer electronics. It sounds like your "fresh" look is just decora switches with a different gloss? I don't know, you don't like the "click". Not sure, I like the click, but I would be OK with a different click. Insteon switches as they are sit right next to regular old home depot decora switches and the color and texture is the same. The led's are the only difference. The Nokia line appears to just do away with the leds, not sure, only seen pictures of them. If the color and texture match, fine. I would not want a different set of leds, no leds is fine. Different leds would mean I have to replace all the Insteon with the Nokia, at least in that room. I don't want a mix and match, and I suspect most people would say the same.
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