Overhead current? I'm sooooooo confused....

[ergodic]

I mostly want to clamp on the two mains legs. I should think net power factor there is unlikely to be below 30% at least unless the entire house is off. Of course it's easy to think things like that when you're ignorant. But even if it is, I'll be kind of interested to know that.

 

Yeah, I know - It's spec'ed at the usual 2A/1ma resolution at the low range, but who knows how it will do with trickle currents. Can't really afford a $2000 Fluke. So as usual I couldn't resist. OTOH I can't imagine it will be any worse than the little $50 clamp probe I use now

[IndyMike]

Background - the power display on the UPM and Kill-a-watt only have a resolution down to 1 watt. This isn't sufficient to display the actual power being consumed by many automation modules. When you have 50 (or 100) of these devices installed, it makes a big difference if the unit is consuming 1 or .5 watts.

 

By performing a long term kWhr test you can significantly increase the resolution of the measurement.

 

I've accumulated 167.33 hours of power consumption on my Lamplinc using a UPM EM100:

 

Instant current: 0.08 A

Line Voltage: 122 Vrms

Instant power: 0 W

 

Run time: 167 hours 20 min

Accumulated consumption: 0.03 kWHr

 

Avg power = (0.03 kWHr * 1000)/167.33 Hr = 0.179 Watts

 

Uncertainty ( the 0.03 kWHr could range from 0.025 to 0.034)

@ 0.025: 0.149 Watts

@ 0.034: 0.203 Watts

 

Lamplinc is a V1.0 (rev 1.2) and was run without a connected load.

 

The above is quite a bit less than what I was anticipating for the LL (I expected something in the 0.5 W range).

 

Next up - 6 button KPL.

[Zick]

Thanks Mike for doing some testing!

 

Btw, how are you hooking up these devices to your UPM EM100?

[markens]

Avg power = (0.03 kWHr * 1000)/167.33 Hr = 0.179 Watts

 

Uncertainty ( the 0.03 kWHr could range from 0.025 to 0.034)

@ 0.025: 0.149 Watts

@ 0.034: 0.203 Watts

 

Lamplinc is a V1.0 (rev 1.2) and was run without a connected load.

 

The above is quite a bit less than what I was anticipating for the LL (I expected something in the 0.5 W range).

Interesting numbers. I also did a long term test, using a kill-a-watt with a newer LampLinc (V2 2456D3, rev 4.3). Also no load. My numbers were a bit higher:

 

consumption: .15 kWhr

time: 167 hr

avg power: .898 W

 

subject to similar error analysis that IM described. It will be interesting to see what you find for a KPL.

 

--Mark

[apostolakisl]

Great stuff.

 

Maybe your accuracy would improve if you tried plugging 4 or 5 units into the killawatt all at once.

 

I am pleased to see that we are definitely under 1 watt.

[IndyMike]

Hi Mark,

 

Your numbers on the Dual-band LL are intriguing. Since the device is essentially still active (transmitting/receiving RF) I'd expect some increase in the avg power. However, 0.7 W is quite a bit.

 

Either we have a difference in the measurement capability of our devices (UPM vs Kill-a-watt) or the dual-band units are significantly less efficient.

 

What does the power factor look like on these units?

 

Edit: Just noted that the 2456D3 is not a dual band - even more interesting. My unit is an old 2856D2 Icon dimmer.

[markens]

Hi Mike,

 

As you noted in your update, the LL I tested is not dual band. Using the kill-a-watt, I saw no-load readings of 7VA with PF=.14. Multiplying this out yields .98W, which is in the ballpark of the .898W average I measured over the week (subject to all the various precision and rounding issues).

 

Its an interesting question, of course, as to how accurate the kill-a-watt is for this sort of measurement. Mine is repeatable, at least.

 

One thing I noticed is that all my recent devices all show similar instantaneous measurements (2476D, 2476S, 2456S3, 2456D3). I did not measure a KPL, and am quite interested in those results. Also would be interesting to measure an access point long-term. I just tried instantaneous test of an access point, and the readings are not stable at all.

 

I have one old X10-only lamplinc which I measured, and got closer to what you saw: LampLinc 2000SC (rev 2.1), measured 5VA PF=.07 (calculate .35W). Also measured a 1626-10 filterlinc: 11VA PF=.01 (calculate .11W).

 

--Mark

[IndyMike]

Thanks Mike for doing some testing!

 

Btw, how are you hooking up these devices to your UPM EM100?

 

Hi Zick,

 

Sorry for the delay - I had missed your question earlier.

 

The LampLinc simply plugs into the UPM (or the Kill-a-watt).

 

For the KPL, I wired a three prong power cord (Power tool replacement cord - 2 wires + ground) to the KPL. The red wire (load control) is capped.

 

I actually use the power cord to "bench test" every unit prior to installing them in their final location. That way I know I have good links in the device and the ISY. If I encounter a problem at the final destination, it's due to a problem on the local circuit.

 

OK, so I'm a bit anal. The first step to recovery is admitting...

[Brian H]

I made a test board with outlets; Input Line power switch; input line fuse; light socket and a set of terminal strips to tie them together. By moving jumpers around I can test plug in modules and hard wired modules.

 

You are not alone. I test ever module and wired in module before installing it.

 

I also have a list of ID numbers so I don't have to remove wall plates or crawl behind furniture to get an ID.

[Sub-Routine]

I also use the workbench with new devices. Each gets a factory reset then added to the ISY. If I need to use Replace Device I do that on the bench.

 

As IM states:

If I encounter a problem at the final destination, it's due to a problem on the local circuit.

 

I haven't kept a list of numbers since I started using the ISY, the topology has them all.

 

Rand

[IndyMike]

I made a test board with outlets; Input Line power switch; input line fuse; light socket and a set of terminal strips to tie them together. By moving jumpers around I can test plug in modules and hard wired modules.

 

You are not alone. I test ever module and wired in module before installing it.

 

Brian,

 

This doesn't surprise me at all given your background. I actually suspect that you may also disassemble units to look for component and layout changes between revisions (I've done it). While it's interesting to look at how the modules have changed over the years, it does create a bit of a problem for returns. That's most likely why I have a number of "spare units" around.

 

I also use the workbench with new devices. Each gets a factory reset then added to the ISY. If I need to use Replace Device I do that on the bench.

 

Rand,

 

You amaze me guy. During the day you work the high iron, and then come home to mess with trains, Insteon, and software. That's pretty diverse.

 

As a side note, I used your "Group commander" with the PLC in the early days of Insteon. It really helped me to understand the protocol and the device linking process. Thank you!

[IndyMike]

6 Button KPL V.2D Power Consumption

 

Configuration

1) Load unused (capped) and turned off

2) Button 2: Toggle (Linked to my security system)

3) Button 3: Toggle (unlinked)

4) Button 4: Non Toggle ON (always lit)

5) Button 5: Non Toggle ON (always lit)

6) Button 6: Load off button (on)

 

Instantaneous measurements:

Voltage - 122 V

Current - 0.08 A

Power - 3 W

 

Accumulated measurements

Power - 0.21 kWhr

Time - 88.82 hours

 

Average power consumption - 2.36 W

Observed Power factor - .24

 

Next up - 6 button KPL dimmer (ES model). This unit appears to have power factor correction.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi IM,

 

That was my job for 35 years. In June '08 I started to collect my pension. And I am enjoying it very much! That makes me sound old but I was only 19 when joined the union.

 

Group Commander was a fun project, but it doesn't hold a candle next to the ISY!

 

I'm really glad you and Brian and a bunch of other guys take the time to visit our forum and help everyone.

 

Thank you,

Rand

 

Rand,

 

You amaze me guy. During the day you work the high iron, and then come home to mess with trains, Insteon, and software. That's pretty diverse.

 

As a side note, I used your "Group commander" with the PLC in the early days of Insteon. It really helped me to understand the protocol and the device linking process. Thank you!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello all,

 

I just want to mention that Rand was our FIRST ever customer and his first impression about our product was: "this is ugly"!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[IndyMike]

Hi IM,

 

That was my job for 35 years. In June '08 I started to collect my pension. And I am enjoying it very much! That makes me sound old but I was only 19 when joined the union.

 

Rand,

 

You've astounded me again. We're about the same age. Somehow I had formed the impression that anyone doing iron work must be much younger.

 

Now I feel like a real wuss having just been informed that I managed to destroy my shoulder while working on an exhaust system (6 months ago).

 

How in the world were you able to survive setting doors, windows, and stairs all those years?

 

I just want to mention that Rand was our FIRST ever customer and his first impression about our product was: "this is ugly"!

 

Hello Michel,

 

That's an extremely interesting data point. I wasn't involved with the ISY in the early days. I waited for you to add the X10 capability prior to jumping in. At that point it was already fairly mature.

 

If I understand things correctly, Rand was critical of your initial offering. You took that criticism, analyzed it and used it to improved the product. Eventually, you recruited Rand as part of the team.

 

Gotta say, I love your methods as well as the team.

[IndyMike]

6 Button KPL Dimmer Power Consumption (ES model Beta unit with I2 and "beep" function)

 

Configuration

1) Load unused (capped) and turned off (off LED is illuminated)

2) Device not linked (factory reset configuration)

 

Instantaneous measurements:

Voltage - 122 V

Current - 0.02 A

Power - 2 W

 

Accumulated measurements

Power - 0.68 kWhr

Time - 339 hours

 

Average power consumption - 2.00 W

Observed Power factor - .82

 

Lower overall consumption and better power factor than the previous V.2d unit.

[Algorithm]

The old electro-mechanical meters were a work of art (spinning dial meter). Fortunately, with modern microprocessors, we don't need a strong physics/e-mag background to do this anymore.

Hi Mike, this is very interesting, as this type of meter is still in common usage around here, including at my house. Does this type of meter read power any differently than what has been discussed in this thread, i.e. would this type of user be charged for the power drawn by idle INSTEON devices?

[Brian H]

Mine is also a spinning dial type. With the analog pointers.

Though it has a RF board in it so the meter can be read electronically as the power company truck Parks in my driveway.

[IndyMike]

Hello Darrell,

 

At one time I had a link to a really nice description of the Electro-mechanical power meter construction and theory. I can't find that now...

 

With some quick searching, the best description I could come up with is the Wikipedia site - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter

 

These meters use totally analog current and voltage transformers to generate a magnetic force on the aluminum disk. Since it is a true analog system, the force is proportional to the Voltage and current at a particular instant in time.

 

Power that is being drawn out of phase (high current/ low voltage) will create less magnet force on the disk. Power that is being drawn in phase (high current/high voltage) will create high force on the disk.

 

In reality, you will have many devices in your home drawing power at various phase angles. The analog meter, being a true "averaging device", will sum all of these forces on the aluminum wheel and produce a "total in-phase" power equivalent.

 

Being an old ****, I both love and trust the elegance of the analog design. When I read the descriptions of the new electronic meters, my brain begins to hurt.

 

Hope I answered your question,

 

IM

[Algorithm]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks so much for the quick, detailed response.

 

Yes, I think you answered my question, if what I think you answered is what you answered, and what you answered is what I think you answered (confused yet?) .

 

In short, though the two meter types work differently, they produce the same end result (of measuring true power), meaning the power used by the INSTEON modules will register less, the more out of phase it is (i.e. the lower the power factor)?

[IndyMike]

Hi Darrell,

 

From the men-of-few-words department -

 

Yes, I think you answered my question, if what I think you answered is what you answered, and what you answered is what I think you answered (confused yet?) .

 

Thoroughly , but that's my problem not yours...

 

In short, though the two meter types work differently, they produce the same end result (of measuring true power), meaning the power used by the INSTEON modules will register less, the more out of phase it is (i.e. the lower the power factor)?

 

Exactly correct.

 

As I posted in the "other" thread, devices with good PF are friendly to powerline communication and the utilities. Devices with poor PF (CFL's and such) cause problems with both powerline communication and long term problems with utilities. In the past, the current draw from these devices was below the radar. This is beginning to change. Other countries have adopted PF and HD (harmonic distortion) requirements for consumer devices. This will cost more in the short run, but should save us money (infrastructure-ultilities-tax dollars) down the road.

 

So much for the few words attempt. Tried it, couldn't make it work.

 

IM