All devices turning ON at random

[hchain]

For the second time in a few weeks, all my devices (lights and relays) turned ON at a random time. Yesterday was in the evening when I have no schedule event. The eisy was not locked this morning, I did not have to reboot it to turn off the relays (I turned off the lights manually yesterday but did not notice that my pool refill relay was ON and I will have a nasty water bill next month). The eisy is on a UPS (not the PLM).

Is there an event I can catch to trigger an email for instance (I may not be at home when this happens)?

 

[Techman]

Take a look at this link. Under these circumstances the EISY would not be aware of the ALL ON event 

INSTEON Random All On Events - Universal Devices, Inc. Wiki (universal-devices.com)

 

[hchain]

Thanks, Techman. Looking at this article, it's possible that a dead battery in a motion detector be the cause.

I looked at the log but cannot make any sense of it. Can you look at it and tell me if anything draws your attention? I would certainly appreciate it.

The All ON event happened between 16:00 hrs on 3/28 and 8:00 hrs on 3/29. Sorry it's a large range but it would take longer to explain

Note: My motion sensors are indicated as EQT_MT in the device name. All the X10 are virtual devices, i.e., they do not exist. I am creating them to drive buttons on my eKeypad display.

If you do not have the time, I understand and thanks for the link. 

  

UDReport.txt

[Geddy]

@hchain While @Techman does have a point about the "All On" issue I thought that was a thing of the past. There haven't been many (maybe ANY) issues/reports of a real "All On" (bug) reported here. Especially with the eisy. I think Insteon fixed the issue either in a PLM firmware update or device update somewhere a long time ago. Unless your devices are really old I don't think you're having a true "All On" bug issue.

You should check for random programs running the next time this happens. 

And as info the PLM should NOT be on a UPS. Many surge protectors and UPS may interfere with the Insteon line signal and block it from correctly getting to the devices, or the return to the PLM. 

5 hours ago, hchain said:

The eisy was not locked this morning, I did not have to reboot it to turn off the relays

What does "not locked" mean? Do you have other times where you have to reboot something to make it work? If so, that's not normal and you need to troubleshoot that potential issue further. (Perhaps in a support ticket if you're having to reboot the device often.)

[hchain]

No, the PLM is NOT on the UPS, only the eisy is.

Regarding the "not locked," I mean it was working fine, did not have to reboot. (I had some issues in the past where I had to reboot the ISY but I have now added a UPS and I do not expect this to happen again. I think I had it one time with the eisy but that was probably my error when upgrading from the ISY to the eisy.)   

>>> You should check for random programs running the next time this happens.
Is there a log for the program runs? 

[Geddy]

25 minutes ago, hchain said:

Is there a log for the program runs? 

In the admin console. Click on the "Programs" tab. Then below that is a "Summary" tab. 

From there you can sort the columns by clicking on the title. click "Last Run Time" twice to sort from most recent to oldest. If you see an offending program about the time that the lights/devices turned on you can select that program, right click and then "Edit" to modify what's happening. 

Also, you said ALL devices turned on. Are you sure every single device did or just "a lot", "most" or "some"?

If you have program issues you would like to review post the entire program by selecting the program, right click, and select "Copy to Clipboard" (should be the very last option in the menu). Then you can paste the program as TEXT into your forum post. It's easier to read and assist with any modifications by not having to retype or recreate the program.

 

29 minutes ago, hchain said:

No, the PLM is NOT on the UPS, only the eisy is.

Yep, I know. I'm just saying don't change that and put the PLM on the UPS thinking it might help. Your setup is fine. 

30 minutes ago, hchain said:

Regarding the "not locked," I mean it was working fine, did not have to reboot

Ah. Okay. I thought you meant something like you leave the Admin Console running 24/7 (it's not advisable to do that!) and it was still active and not "locked up" or something funky with the IoX access. 

[kclenden]

7 hours ago, hchain said:

Is there an event I can catch to trigger an email for instance (I may not be at home when this happens)?

The "random all on" that people experienced in the past was hard to catch because the affected devices simply turned on without reporting a status change.  People ended up creating "watch dog" programs that monitored a device whose state was tightly controlled and reported if it was in an unexpected state.

Say for instance your "pool refill relay".  If you control it via programs, then whenever your program turns it on, set a variable to 1.  Whenever it turns it off, set a variable to 0.  If you control it via an Insteon switch then have a program that sets the variable to 1 whenever "switched ON" is received from the switch, and sets it to 0 whenever "switched OFF" is received.  Now create a program that queries the status of the relay every X minutes, with X being the amount of time you're comfortable having the relay be ON even though you didn't turn it on yourself.  Finally, create a program which sends you an email if the "pool refill relay" in ON and the variable is 0.

[AustinKirby]

I’m having a similar issue except that it happens randomly. It seems to be related to timed events in programs. Everything just turns on. Quite annoying when it’s 7 in the morning and I planned to sleep in. There’s no one program that triggers it. Any program that uses a timed event including sunrise and sunset can trigger everything on. Any suggestions?

[mbking]

I’m having the same issue. It seemed to start around IoX version 5.5.4 or 5.5.5, but I’m not totally certain of the specific version. I had to disconnect the garage relay because it opened my garage door in the middle of the night. Status is not updated and the log doesn’t show any activity related to those devices that turn on by themselves. I’m running IoX on Polisy. 

Could a failing PLM cause this? Mine is reaching the typical failure time frame for failure. 

[larryllix]

This was thought to be a clash of two or more signals and then some Insteon device decodes it as an All On signal and starts echoing it around your system.

This was thought to be common in devices like the multibutton wall switches where there were many nodes inside one device that all use the same Insteon ID.
For example: when a signal is received from a push button, ISY could immediately set the LED for that button on as an indicator of state. This should have a Wait 1-2 seconds before activating the LED.
This situation can be aggravated by battery operated wireless Insteon devices that do not follow the power line protocols to avoid signal clashes. They have no way to detect the signal clash and in order to ensure success of transmission, repeat their commands several times. While the signal is being echoed by Insteon devices, your ISY device can start sending response signals simultaneously.

It was never known or revealed exactly why this was happening or from where but the work-around seemed to be, not to fire signals immediately after a wireless device sent out a signal.

This ALL ON signal appears to be an Insteon Scene style signal whereas no responses are ever sent so that ISY can detect any status change. This is according to Insteon protocol definitions.
I had one OnOffLinc plug-in device drive me crazy with random Ons and partial Ons (dims) for about a year. One occurrence I recognised the a pattern of lights as a scene that I had programmed and found the logs showing the device in question not responding with an ACK signal when it was commanded on or off. A simple unplugging the device and plugging it back i solved that problem and it never returned for many years now.

Remember these devices contain a CPU running firmware and can run amuck, just like any other computer.

[hchain]

Thanks for the above responses from...

Geddy: I would say 'most' (thinking about it, I realize that at least one garage relay did not go ON, but most is definitely true).

kclenden: I will implement this and see how it helps.

Larryllix: This is a little bit above my head, but I will study it

[larryllix]

Thanks for the above responses from...
Geddy: I would say 'most' (thinking about it, I realize that at least one garage relay did not go ON, but most is definitely true).
kclenden: I will implement this and see how it helps.
Larryllix: This is a little bit above my head, but I will study it

As the simplest explanation without any background if you are turning on KPL LEDs make sure to put a short Wait just before each command.

If you have Insteon MSes insert a Wait 1 second before commanding anything else after detecting motion in your programs

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[hchain]

Larry,

I just found this in the ISY cookbook
If Garage / Garage Door.closed' Status is Off
Then Wait 1 second
Set Scene 'Mudroom / MudRm kpl.LED.A' On
 

Is this what you are talking about?

Same with MS I assume:

If Motion detected
Then Wait 1 second
//Do something//

RV

 

 

 

[TRI0N]

9 hours ago, hchain said:

Larry,

I just found this in the ISY cookbook
If Garage / Garage Door.closed' Status is Off
Then Wait 1 second
Set Scene 'Mudroom / MudRm kpl.LED.A' On
 

Is this what you are talking about?

Same with MS I assume:

If Motion detected
Then Wait 1 second
//Do something//

RV

 

 

 

Since you are now learning about "wait" and "send notification" such. You can make a program "repeat". I'm not sure how you run your Pool Fill event in terms of what makes it turn on. You can make it repeat and on/off sequence at whatever given interval. For example:

If From 10:00 AM to 9:30 AM (not same day)
and Your Pool Fill Device is On

Then
Repeat every 30 minutes (can just also use "wait")
     Your Pool Fill Device Off

Else
Your Pool Fill Device On

Set that to Run at Startup so it start every time the system reboots. 

What that is saying is it will set your device to OFF every 30 minutes unless it's between 9:30 AM to 10:00 AM it will turn our fill device on. Just a little failsafe. Not fool proof, but a little more comfort with a piece of mind. You can also make one that will send an email if the device is on outside the 30 minute fill period, of course I'm just guessing how long you do your fill.

TRI0N

Edited March 31, 2023 by TRI0N