Migrating to eisy from ISY with ELK module Failure

[CoolToys]

I finally got around to migrating from the ISY I have used for at least 12 years to the new eisy.  Just about everything that could happen did.  I am not writing this to beat up UDI, but I learned if you need to write a manual, there is a better way to do it.....  I have been doing a lot of reading as a 10 plus year ISY/Insteon/Elk user for what is called an "eisy upgrade".

After failing miserably, I wiped the eisy and started over following the wiki step by step.  Sorry it is no where near complete and at the same time has way too much information that isn't needed.  As of now the eisy can see every device.  I can use the buttons on the admin console to turn them on or off.  Most of my programs use the status of the alarm as an energy saving feature since geofencing eats my phone battery.  None of the ELK information migrates.

There are two main issues.

First, none of the motion sensors are being read (seen) by the eisy.  I can query and fill in everything but activity and status boxes.  The four sensors do a lot of the heavy lifting after the elk to trigger programs and save energy.  Any ideas?  I can't find anything on Insteon Motion II in the forums or wiki other than press the button to activate or program. 

Second the Elk module.  I am still working on it, out of time today.

Everything below is what I am finding out, but not much progress.

I found all of this digging around the forum after several hours of frustration and I still can't get the eisy to do anything but act as a button.

Use caution upgrading packages, you also need to delete and download a new Start.jlnp so you get a new admin console or they are not compatible.  You don't find this out until after you upgrade and can't access the admin console.

None of my programs worked, and none of the motion sensors are being read by the eisy.  

Most programs said "not loaded" and "out of memory".  These errors are misleading.  After digging around the forum I found a note that said check the programs, there is a device/variable missing.  Sure enough, all non loaded programs were related to the status of my ELK security system. The module did not transfer with the upgrade from backup.  Every line in every program with an elk module was an error.   Which there is no documentation on the Wiki for and you can not "purchase modules" in the eisy as the wiki says to do.  I assumed from the reading that there is something in the polyglot.  

Finally got it loaded and started to configure.  Another hour of reading and it still isn't set up or working.  

 

[kzboray]

@CoolToys, it's important to understand that not only did you change hardware but you  also changed from a dedicated ISY Elk Module to the new ELk Polyglot Node Server (NS) which replaces the older ISY Elk Module. On eisy there is no longer any module support so that is why you need to purchase and install the new Elk NS before you can do anything.

I believe from the last line of your post that you have done this. If not, then open your web browser and type in https://your_eisy_IP:3000. This will start the Polyglot server interface. You will be promoted to sign in if you haven't already. The default user is <admin> and the default password is also <admin> if you have changed the password in AC then you should use that password instead.

Now that you are logged in you will need to click on <Node Server Store> Top menu. Then scroll down to Elk and click on the name Elk on the far left. Now find the button labeled <More Info> and click on that.

Now you need to read all of this thoroughly. You should also check out the Elk NS Configuration Help section. Use this link as the one on the above page is broken ATM.

Now that you have some idea of what the Elk NS can do, it's time to change every single program that used the older Elk Module on your ISY manually. There is no migration available for this complex Elk update, you have to manually update each program for the new Elk NS commands that replace the older ISY Elk module.

If you don't have copies of your old ISY programs this is going to be difficult. Hopefully you have that information available. If not you will need to rebuild from scratch all your programs that used to talk to the ISY Elk Module.

A quick way to see which programs are broken is to start AC and then go to <Programs><Details> and click the small + button on the top ribbon. Every program that is broken will be shown with a yellow icon. These are the ones you need to look at and rebuild.

As far as the MSII's they are not part of the Elk setup nor were they ever. Recently there was a post about the MSII's no longer being found by IoX on eisy. I don't have any verification of this as I don't use MSII's and no longer have any to test with. The recommendation I saw posted was to migrate to a supported z-wave device like the Aeotec MultiSensor 6.

https://aeotec.com/products/aeotec-multi-sensor-6/

The newer MultiSensor 7 was not recommended by the posters. Your call.

If you find the MSII is indeed not being discovered by IoX on eisy then you can also open a support ticket at...

https://www.universal-devices.com/my-tickets/

Edited September 5, 2023 by kzboray

[CoolToys]

Thanks for the updates and yes I did understand that I was going down the Poly rabbit hole.  There can be a better way but that isn't going to change today or even this year.  I had planned to upgrade as soon as the eisy came out but had the same frustrations so I delayed it as long as I could.  The failure of Insteon and rebirth with i3 was the beginning of the end of the ISY and since the ISY support will end at some point I decided now was the time.

After loading the Elk NS, and following the directions in the help section a new light bulb icon appeared in devices with two sub-devices labeled ELK Controller.  I have no idea what these do and this doesn't match the help files so I am still reading everything I can find.

I found on the Programs>details tab from another post that all of the "Out of Memory" programs had an elk status or zone in the If statement.  I had to remove the Elk <unknown> lines and then disabled the programs so I wouldn't lose them but could start eliminating the errors.  I should have mentioned that as a workaround for anyone else so they don't just delete all their work.  I bet there is a way to comment out programs, I just don't know how.  

You are correct, The MSII's were used to set "state variables" so that lights wouldn't turn off if I sat still for 5 minutes, not as part of the ELK.  I agree these are two separate issues.  Using MSII's like this was the most reliable way I found to do it and then I found I could create cool scenes based on the order.  Someone leaving the guest room, turned on one path to the kitchen, someone leaving the master a different set based on which MSII was triggered first before hitting the one on the stairs.  You get very used to the house doing things for you and now two days of zilch.  

The MS II's are discovered, and I can read everything except the motion status.  Thanks for the link to the MS 6.  I realize it is time to upgrade away from Insteon, I was just hoping to not have to toss 10 years of systems building to upgrade my ISY to an eisy.  

[CoolToys]

9/5 Evening Update,  After I left the system for several hours, the Elk icon changed and the information populated.  Not in the way I expected from the help files, but using standard ELK terminology that I understood and could use.

One of the MSII's started working, no idea why.  I came home and the kitchen scene worked all by itself.  I tested the other three MSII's and the "activity block" is still blank.  Working through it.  

9/6 Morning update - A second MSII is now "sending" or being "received" by the eisy.  One shows the temperature and battery status as well as "Status" in the Activity event, and on the "motion" page it shows blank.    The second one only shows "Status". and "off" on the motion page.  For the two that the eisy is not receiving, one shows the temperature and battery status the other is all blank.  Factory reset and restore did not work.  Next is to remove and start over as a new device I think.

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by CoolToys
Status change in the morning

[CoolToys]

Ok so things are really looking up.  My system has been stable for many many years so I don't mess with this and forget more than I know for sure.  ISY to eisy migration almost completed with ELK module.  I am still working on the mini remotes.

1. Elk module.  I didn't understand the variables so I tried "elk all" for name and the number of the user and it's pin I programmed in ELK RP that the old elk module used to connect non secure on port 2101.  I have two areas but the second one I do odd things with in elk so I changed to one area, restarted the elk Node Server with these three adjustments and within seconds everything populated and I just needed to correct the If lines in my programs where the old elk conditions were remarked out.

2. Motion Sensors II aka MS II or MSII - One at a time, I put them in multi link mode, removed them from the system and quickly re-added before they timed out and all are working well.  

I hope this helps someone!

[CoolToys]

One other question, the "Daily Query" program didn't migrate to eisy.  I didn't see anything about that in the forum or wiki.  If anyone knows why, thanks, if I find it I will post here.

 

[Techman]

If it didn't migrate you can recreate the "Query All" program.

IF

    Time is 3:00 AM

THEN

    Set ISY Query

ELSE

 

[CoolToys]

22 hours ago, Techman said:

If it didn't migrate you can recreate the "Query All" program.

IF

    Time is 3:00 AM

THEN

    Set ISY Query

ELSE

 

I thought it would be that easy, but while in the "Then" area of the admin console I haven't found "ISY Query" on the eisy.

Under "action" Then "your devices" it is only individual devices now, the "ISY" isn't there.

 

[Geddy]

@CoolToys look at the bottom of the list (I think). It’s whatever name you’ve given your eisy. It probably isn’t just ISY now. 
 

Neither the Polisy or eisy “shipped” with the query program as a default program. Many have just gone without, but many will add it (like yourself).  It is used to update status for devices. If you don’t have an issue of out of sync devices you might not need it. 

 

[Techman]

1 hour ago, CoolToys said:

I thought it would be that easy, but while in the "Then" area of the admin console I haven't found "ISY Query" on the eisy.

Under "action" Then "your devices" it is only individual devices now, the "ISY" isn't there.

 

Take a look towards the bottom of the devices list, it might be located somewhere in your scenes

[CoolToys]

@Techman - Found it, Thanks!  I was looking for ISY or eisy...

 

[JSchumann]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:12 PM, CoolToys said:

1. Elk module.  I didn't understand the variables so I tried "elk all" for name and the number of the user and it's pin 

CoolToys, Where you mention number of the user and it's pin, where and how exactly did you enter that on the server - on the user code line?  What format did you use.  I just put the pi in and not sure it is working right.

I have ####.  Should it be # ####  Where first # is user number and last 4 are the pin?

Thanks,

John

[Jimbo.Automates]

15 hours ago, JSchumann said:

CoolToys, Where you mention number of the user and it's pin, where and how exactly did you enter that on the server - on the user code line?  What format did you use.  I just put the pi in and not sure it is working right.

I have ####.  Should it be # ####  Where first # is user number and last 4 are the pin?

Thanks,

John

It's just the PIN, you can use your personal PIN but it's recommended to create a new user in ElkRP2 with it's own PIN.  You will know it's actually working if you can arm/disarm the system in the Admin Console.

[CoolToys]

@JSchumann, First question is do you have an eisy or ISY?  
For the ISY with ELK module, click on ELK and fill in the fields  

I used a PC with ELK RP 2 to build a user with the name Cal, which is the nickname of my ISY (now eisy).  As @Jimbo.Automatessuggested, I used the pin from the new user so I can track who comes and goes better and trouble shoot if I do something idiotic to my eisy.  I do sometimes blindly build programs that crash other programs so I am trying to track things better.

For the Eisy, using the  The Elk Node Server instead of the module was a bit more work.   Figuring out where to put the pin wasn't quite as easy as the module that integrated into the admin panel.  I am on the road so I can't see the system, but I am pretty sure I needed the IP address of the ELK M1 network module in addition to the pin.  That took some click and seek work to find.  Once I found it, entered the ip address and pin,  I selected "connect".  Very quickly the Admin panel populated all of the sensors on my elk system.  

I like the new Elk Node with eisy a lot better.  Among other upgrades, now I get instant notifications any time I am not home and a zone is violated since I have UD Mobile on my iPhone and watch.

I'll check back when I get home if you don't find it, let me know I'll post better information then.

 

[Jimbo.Automates]

It's not difficult, go to the PG3x UI, select the Elk node server -> Details -> Configuration page and enter the values as described in the help message.

To Configure the ELK Nodeserver

Custom Configuration Parameters

• Set temperature_unit to F or C
• Set host to the host or ip address and port, e.g. 192.168.1.15:2101
• Set user_code, suggested to create a unique usercode for this NodeServer
• Set areas to the range of areas you would like to include
• Set outputs to the range of outputs to include
• Set change_node_names to true makes ELK the source of node names so if they are changed then ISY names will be changed to match.
• Set light_method to ELKID to check for ELKID=n on ISY Nodes, or ELKNAME to check if the Elk Light Name matches and ISY Node name or address.
  • ELKALL
    • This creates an ISY Light node for every definded Light node on the ELk
  • ELKID
    • This works by right-clicking on a node in the ISY and adding a note with "ELKID=n" where n is a unique integer
    • After changing to ELKID method, you must wait until you see "Export Completed" warning message in the Log.
    • Then click on the "export" like provided below
    • If you change an ELKID on a node then you must restart the nodeserver for it to be seen.
  • ELKNAME
    • This attempts to match the name of an ISY Node with the Name of an ELK Light node to control. The table on this page will show the matches.
  • NONE
    • No need to control ISY lights from your Elk

Note that if you remove an Area, it will not be removed from the ISY or Polyglot. This is intentional just in case it's an accident and your scenes or programs reference the nodes.

If you change light_method from ELKALL to another method, the Light nodes will not be removed.

You can go to the Nodes Page in the Polyglot UI and delete leftover nodes from changing ranges or light_method using the X to the right of the node.

Ranges

A range can be comma seperated to include just those numbers, or seperated with a dash to include numbers in between. For example 1-3,5,7-8 will be 1,2,3,5,7,8 All ranges start at one just like the numbering the Elk uses.

[CoolToys]

It wasn't until I set  "light_method" to "ELKALL" that the ELK and all the zones appeared in my admin panel.  Don't know why and didn't experiment since it was working.