Interference from Ganged SwitchLinc Dimmers?

[mlennox]

Hello,

 

I've just started setting up an Insteon system with an ISY-99i and SwitchLinc Dimmers. I have had 2 instances of problems with double-ganged SwitchLinc Dimmers.

 

In the first scenario, the ISY did not find the dimmers during the linking process, however I was able to resolve the issue by doing a factory reset on the 2 dimmers and re-linking. No problems since then on these ones.

 

In the most recent scenario though, I had the same problem linking 2 SL dimmers. A factory reset resolved the issue with one of them, however the other one simply wouldn't link. Finally I tried pulling out the "air gap" from the successful dimmer (to turn off its power) and then attempting a link. This worked.

 

The problem I have now is that for either of these 2 dimmers, in order to be able to write updates successfully to them, I ALWAYS have to pull out the power tab on the OTHER dimmer, otherwise communication does not work. It's 100% repeatable, if I have both dimmers powered up, ISY cannot write updates to either, if I turn off one, ISY can write updates to the other.

 

The interesting thing is that ISY can turn them on and off without issue even when both powered up. They are both 0.37 firmware dimmers.

 

Any ideas???? Do I have a defective dimmer maybe?

[IndyMike]

Hello Mlennox,

 

This actually sounds like a classic case of signal absorption. Each Insteon device absorbs a certain amount of signal. If these units are at the end of a long circuit, or if there is a signal absorber between them and the circuit panel, it's conceivable that adding a second Insteon unit would be enough to drag the signal level below the noise threshold.

 

I wouldn't call this normal by any means. I've never encountered it in a home - only in test cases.

 

A few things to check -

1) Please check the ISY settings under the menu item Link /Management/Advanced options. Make sure that you're using the "automatic" programming mode.

2) Look for signal absorbers on your circuit branch (PC's, TV's, Audio components) and disable - retry the communications. If you find a problem device, it's a candidate for a filter.

3) If you know how the circuit is physically run through the house, try putting an Insteon device on the branch between your problem units and the circuit panel. This unit should act as a repeater and boost the level at your problem units.

4) Phase coupling - let us know how you are coupling the phases (Accesspoints or Passive coupler). Are these units on the opposite phase from your PLM?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi mlennox,

 

In addition to the comments by IndyMike, would you be kind enough to let me know what does ISY's Admin Console report for the firmware on your SLs? If v35, then I strongly recommend getting them replaced immediately since the symptoms are classic symptoms of SwitchLinc version 35.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[mlennox]

Thanks guys.

 

To answer questions, this particular branch circuit does not have much on it. Basically a bathroom circuit with the bedroom light on it. I have a phase coupler wired directly at the panel with a 2-pole 15 breaker.

 

All my SLs show in ISY console as 0.37 firmware.

 

One thing further from my most recent posts. I noticed that with one of the 2 SLs, when I was able to communicate properly with it, for some reason it's ignoring my dim level and ramp rate settings set from ISY. All SLs installed to this point have accepted the ISY dim and ramp levels.

 

I took the problematic switch and put it on another bedroom circuit. Again, no signal absorbers on this circuit. Communications are fine this time, but I still cannot set the dim level and ramp rate from ISY.

[mlennox]

Further to my last post, I put a new SL into the double-gang box in place of the problematic switch that I relocated. Similar problem, though not quite as bad. Initially I could not set the ramp rate on the new switch from ISY, but I was able to set dim level. After some factory resets and disconnecting the ganged switch, I've been able to get it setup.

 

But as soon as I reconnect the other switch in the gang, communication problems start.

 

This problem in conjunction with IndyMike's post have me really nervous about my plan to install over 30 SLs in the house. My understanding from reading is that more insteon devices should IMPROVE communication issues, not exacerbate them. Once I've got 30+ SLs in place, can I expect so much signal absorption that nothing will work?

[Sub-Routine]

You have done a lot of testing. All I can think of now is to replace both SLs with known good devices. If they don't function correctly it is probably something on the circuit.

 

For signal absorption I have read of cases where >~25 Insteon devices on one circuit had some problems.

 

Rand

 

Further to my last post, I put a new SL into the double-gang box in place of the problematic switch that I relocated. Similar problem, though not quite as bad. Initially I could not set the ramp rate on the new switch from ISY, but I was able to set dim level. After some factory resets and disconnecting the ganged switch, I've been able to get it setup.

 

But as soon as I reconnect the other switch in the gang, communication problems start.

 

This problem in conjunction with IndyMike's post have me really nervous about my plan to install over 30 SLs in the house. My understanding from reading is that more insteon devices should IMPROVE communication issues, not exacerbate them. Once I've got 30+ SLs in place, can I expect so much signal absorption that nothing will work?

[IndyMike]

Hello mlennox,

 

I'm sorry if my post led you to believe that adding SLs would cause additional problems. That was not the intent. Your understanding that adding Insteon units improves the signal level is in general correct. I have currently 60+ units installed, and others have well over 100.

 

In general, having Insteon units "spread" throughout the home, will improve communications since each unit will repeat the transmissions.

 

I'm inferring that you are just getting started and have very few Insteon units installed. If that is indeed the case, you have few "repeaters" in your system and may be suffering from low signal level on this particular branch circuit.

 

Your previous post mentioned that your problem circuit was tied into your bathroom. Bathrooms typically require GFCI outlets which have been known to absorb powerline communication. If your problem circuit is wired "downstream" of a GFCI, this could be the problem. While I wouldn't call this a typical installation, it's worth checking. Try popping the breaker (test button) to confirm whether your SLs are downstream.

 

In general, you're trying to determine where a signal absorber might be located on your circuit (between your SLs and the panel). You can then filter the offending device or install a Insteon device (repeater) between the absorber and the panel to boost the signal level.

 

PANEL---------------------Absorber-------------------SLs

 

But as soon as I reconnect the other switch in the gang, communication problems start.

 

This problem in conjunction with IndyMike's post have me really nervous about my plan to install over 30 SLs in the house. My understanding from reading is that more insteon devices should IMPROVE communication issues, not exacerbate them. Once I've got 30+ SLs in place, can I expect so much signal absorption that nothing will work?

[mlennox]

Thanks for that clarification IndyMike.

 

The circuit in question connects the master bedroom lights, one of the master bathroom lights and the master bathroom fan. No GFCI on this circuit, though I have noticed communication problems on my ApplianceLinc which is downstream of a GFCI in the master bathroom.

 

I wired the house myself so I'm quite familiar with the various branch circuits. I've got some filterlincs on order and will be installing a lot more switches, so hopefully this will help. I also plan to run a dedicated circuit for the PLM and ISY-99i

 

I've installed the in-line phase coupler, though it has no indication of whether it's actually on or doing anything (no status lights)...

 

There's definitely something happening with the 2 ganged switches, but perhaps with more devices this will help.

 

I'll keep tinkering.

[IndyMike]

mlennox,

 

The fact that you wired the house puts you ahead of 90% of the people using powerline devices. Most have to go through quite a lot of pain to determine the branch runs.

 

Can you tell whether your problem devices appear to be on the phase opposite from your PLM? If so you could try plugging your ApplianceLinc into this phase at some point near the panel. It should be able to hear the coupled signal and then repeat it to the other devices on this phase.

 

What model phase coupler do you have? There are two different styles:

 

1) L-C coupler: Smarthome 2406H and others wire directly across the phases (two wires + ground).

2) Tuned transformer: ACT CP000 uses two L-C ckts and two transformers (two hot + 2 neutral connections). While very nice for X10, these couplers invert the signals between phases for 220V X10 operation. I have a feeling that this inversion would be a problem for Insteon (I have one of this en-route for evaluation).

[mlennox]

mlennox,

 

What model phase coupler do you have? There are two different styles:

 

 

I've got the 2406H version, so I should be good. I'm a little annoyed that the 2406H doesn't have any visual LED indicator that it is ON... for all I know it could be fried and you'd never really know. The only thing I can be confident it is is that it's being supplied 240V right from the panel...

 

I've only begun my insteon installation and I've got a lot of work installing switches and other devices. Once I've got more devices hooked up I should get a better picture of what communication issues I may face.

 

I also plan to run a dedicated circuit to the attic for the PLM/ISY combo so that I can be sure there are no signal losses from the ISY to the panel.

 

I will post again once I've got more information, but for now I'm pretty sure I've got a faulty SL (the one that I can't set the local ramp and dim levels from ISY).