KPL button on-level set to off not working

[apostolakisl]

I have a somewhat older KPL that I believe is working fine, but have repurposed and am not getting it to work right.  It is a 6 button unit and I am using the 4 middle buttons to run a fanlinc.  I have setup 4 scenes and put all 4 buttons in each scene.  The 4 scenes being high, med, low, off.  I have the buttons to toggle on only.  In each scene, I set the 3 buttons that aren't for that scene to have on-levels of off.  That way they are exclusive, only one button will be on at a time.  This is working great when I control the scene from the KPL buttons.  Push "high" and the "off" kpl shuts off for example.  However, when I control the scene from ISY (or in other words from the PLM) it turns all of the buttons on even though I have it set to be off.  I have tried restoring the device from ISY and changed the on-level to "on" and then back to "off" and still.  This should work . . . right?

[IndyMike]

@apostolakisl, in a word "Yes" the above should work.  I have similar KPL's all over my house.  I use the Non-Toggle Off in my installation but understand why you are using Non-Toggle On.

Just to be certain, I set up an old 6 button test KPL using your configuration.  And yes, we are not crazy.  It works, both from the KPL and the admin console.  Based on the screenshot in your post, I do not understand why your "Exercise Rm Fan High" scene would activate all of the buttons.

My configuration - ISY994 V5.3.4

KPL - 2486D (6 button), FW V.41,  V6.0, D.C. 1213 

 

Ideas (SWAGs):

1) Since you are re-purposing, wouldn't hurt to delete the device from the ISY, factory reset, re-include.

2) For this to be happening, the scene responder link in the KPL would need to be missing or incorrect.  Could you do a device link table scan and provide the results?  I would explain why the KPL isn't responding properly.  It would not explain why it wasn't written properly.

3) Not sure if you are using a Eisy, or Polisy.  I would think the scene management would be the same, but maybe the integration of Zwave and other technologies has broken something.

 

 

 

[apostolakisl]

I don't really know how to interpret this, but here are the links tables.  I did a factory reset, but did not remove and re-add it to ISY.

[IndyMike]

You have missing/incorrect records immediately after a restore.  That's not good.  I'm surprised you didn't get any write errors.  This would normally imply device communication issues.  How do your Comms look in the event viewer?

What I have never seen is the errors on the left (ISY link tables) side.  It almost seems that the ISY is saying it's missing records (SDcard issues?)

Curious if you see this on different devices.

The following is a scan of my test KPL.

I turned the "KPL High" scene on from the Admin Console.  The event viewer showed this as scene 00.00.37.

Inspecting the KPL link table I can see where Scene #37 is set to turn button 3 on (FF) and buttons 4, 5, 6 off (00).

Your scene #48 appears to do the same.

Curious if things behave differently now.

 

 

 

 

 

[apostolakisl]

Previously I had tried a restore device without a factory reset.  Coincidentally I was messing with it this morning having no idea you would be responding to my post.  I did a factory reset and restore, it did not give any write errors and it wrote everything on the first go around.  It did take it a few minutes to do the writes.  After the restore, it behaves the same as before.  When I operate the fan from the KPL, the KPL buttons do what they are supposed to do.  For example, if the fan is off, KPL D is lit, If I then push KPL A (high fan) it shuts off button D and sets the fan on high and lights KPL A.  It works the same for all 4 buttons, whichever button you push, it shuts off whichever button was on and turns the one you pushed on in addition to setting the fan speed accordingly.  If I activate any of those same scenes from ISY, it turns on all 4KPL buttons.  It does operate the fan correctly despite all 4 KPL buttons being lit.

I do not have any issues with my ISY (Polisy) that would make me think there is a problem with the sd card.

Perhaps I do need to remove it completely from ISY and start over.  

[IndyMike]

It's possible that the "missing this record" message on the isy link table is simply a difference in presentation between the ISY and PolISY.

Beyond that, I do not see anything in your device link table that indicates the scene should be turning on buttons 3, 4, 5,&6 at the same time.

If deleting/re-installing doesn't work, you may need to try a different device.

[Javi]

If I remember correctly changing the toggle to non-toggle[on/off] required the depreciated button grouping.  When using 5.x scenes the buttons should be left as toggle.

IMO the best way to link KPL buttons with a fanlink is with a single scene similar to the 5.x example on our Wiki.  If you want to keep an OFF button then the setup is slightly modified.  If you want to use AC/UDM/Alexa control the Fan directly, not from a scene, then write the programs/scenes to keep KPL in sync. 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY994i:INSTEON_Device:FanLinc-KPL_FanLinc_KeypadLinc_Configuration

[IndyMike]

Hello Javi, I very much hope that you are incorrect about the non-toggle mode.  I use it rather extensively.  It is actually a hardware feature on the KPLs (documented in the user manuals).  If newer KPL's do not include the feature, that would be a news item.

I have understood that the button grouping was not advised.

[Javi]

14 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

Hello Javi, I very much hope that you are incorrect about the non-toggle mode.  I use it rather extensively.  It is actually a hardware feature on the KPLs (documented in the user manuals).  If newer KPL's do not include the feature, that would be a news item.

I have understood that the button grouping was not advised.

This is only in relation to the v4.x setup for the KPL which references grouping.  The Grouping is depreciated, not toggle mode.

Using the 5.x scene to turn on/off a device which is not a toggle could get confusing quickly.

[IndyMike]

27 minutes ago, Javi said:

This is only in relation to the v4.x setup for the KPL which references grouping.  The Grouping is depreciated, not toggle mode.

Using the 5.x scene to turn on/off a device which is not a toggle could get confusing quickly.

Thank you for confirming that the Non-Toggle is still current for the KPL's.

I did try @apostolakisl's scene setup on a new 2334-2 KPL.  It functions there also.

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, Javi said:

If I remember correctly changing the toggle to non-toggle[on/off] required the depreciated button grouping.  When using 5.x scenes the buttons should be left as toggle.

IMO the best way to link KPL buttons with a fanlink is with a single scene similar to the 5.x example on our Wiki.  If you want to keep an OFF button then the setup is slightly modified.  If you want to use AC/UDM/Alexa control the Fan directly, not from a scene, then write the programs/scenes to keep KPL in sync. 

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY994i:INSTEON_Device:FanLinc-KPL_FanLinc_KeypadLinc_Configuration

I'll get rid of the toggle on only mode for the kpl, but somehow I doubt that is going to fix it.  The toggle on only really isn't necessary anyway.  But I don't have high hopes.

Regarding how scenes work, is the responder to a scene's behavior programmed into the responder, or the controller?  In other words, when you initiate a "scene on" command from ISY, does the PLM send out specific instructions to the responding switch (ie on, off, 15%, etc), or does the PLM just send a "scene on" command and the switch then responds according to programming on it.

[IndyMike]

26 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I'll get rid of the toggle on only mode for the kpl, but somehow I doubt that is going to fix it.  The toggle on only really isn't necessary anyway.  But I don't have high hopes.

Regarding how scenes work, is the responder to a scene's behavior programmed into the responder, or the controller?  In other words, when you initiate a "scene on" command from ISY, does the PLM send out specific instructions to the responding switch (ie on, off, 15%, etc), or does the PLM just send a "scene on" command and the switch then responds according to programming on it.

The responders behavior is mostly contained in the responder link table.  That's what I tried to show in my overly complicated post above.

When I activate my "Test KPL High" scene, the ISY transmits the following group broadcast command to group 00.00.37

In this simple test case, we are instructing button 3 to turn on and buttons 4, 5, and 6 to turn off.  All of that functionality is contained in the device link table.  That's why I was concerned that your link table had issues after a restore.

This is a simple instance with only 1 group responder.  The scene could include every device in your installation.  Each group member would have an entry telling it how to respond to the broadcast group 00.00.37 command

[apostolakisl]

6 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

The responders behavior is mostly contained in the responder link table.  That's what I tried to show in my overly complicated post above.

When I activate my "Test KPL High" scene, the ISY transmits the following group broadcast command to group 00.00.37

In this simple test case, we are instructing button 3 to turn on and buttons 4, 5, and 6 to turn off.  All of that functionality is contained in the device link table.  That's why I was concerned that your link table had issues after a restore.

This is a simple instance with only 1 group responder.  The scene could include every device in your installation.  Each group member would have an entry telling it how to respond to the broadcast group 00.00.37 command

So, basically, it is a failure of the KPL.  The KPL "hears" turn scene on, and then it is supposed to know what that means.  Funny thing is, when it "hears" turn scene on where the other KPL button is the controller, it does the right thing.  Or perhaps, ISY is not setting the on levels correctly and the KPL is doing what it is programed to do.

[Javi]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I'll get rid of the toggle on only mode for the kpl, but somehow I doubt that is going to fix it.  The toggle on only really isn't necessary anyway.  But I don't have high hopes.

Regarding how scenes work, is the responder to a scene's behavior programmed into the responder, or the controller?  In other words, when you initiate a "scene on" command from ISY, does the PLM send out specific instructions to the responding switch (ie on, off, 15%, etc), or does the PLM just send a "scene on" command and the switch then responds according to programming on it.

If the KPL and Fanlink are linked the same way as the single scene in the Wiki the Fan and PLM stay in sync without PLM/ISY connected. Must be link type Insteon, not default or command.

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

So, basically, it is a failure of the KPL.  The KPL "hears" turn scene on, and then it is supposed to know what that means.  Funny thing is, when it "hears" turn scene on where the other KPL button is the controller, it does the right thing.  Or perhaps, ISY is not setting the on levels correctly and the KPL is doing what it is programed to do.

Have you tried air gapping KPL with the pull tab or ~20 seconds?

[apostolakisl]

13 minutes ago, Javi said:

If the KPL and Fanlink are linked the same way as the single scene in the Wiki the Fan and PLM stay in sync without PLM/ISY connected. Must be link type Insteon, not default or command.

Have you tried air gapping KPL with the pull tab or ~20 seconds?

I deleted the KPL from ISY and factory reset it again (air gap, then push it in and hold).  Indeed, this did a successful reset as all setting were gone.  I then added back to ISY and setup all the scenes again.  Same thing.  Works fine when I push the KPL buttons, but when I control the scenes from ISY, all 4 buttons turn on even though 3 of them are supposed to turn off.  And yes, it is set to "Insteon".  I did not change the toggle mode this time, it is default on/off.  Perhaps it is just an old KPL that for whatever reason this doesn't work with.  But I don't get why it works fine when I use other buttons on the KPL as the scene controller.  My issue here is that I wanted to use Alexa to control this scene so I can be on the bike or rower or whatever and just tell Alexa to change the fan speed.

 

[apostolakisl]

New links table.

[Javi]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I deleted the KPL from ISY and factory reset it again (air gap, then push it in and hold).  Indeed, this did a successful reset as all setting were gone.  I then added back to ISY and setup all the scenes again.  Same thing.  Works fine when I push the KPL buttons, but when I control the scenes from ISY, all 4 buttons turn on even though 3 of them are supposed to turn off.  And yes, it is set to "Insteon".  I did not change the toggle mode this time, it is default on/off.  Perhaps it is just an old KPL that for whatever reason this doesn't work with.  But I don't get why it works fine when I use other buttons on the KPL as the scene controller.  My issue here is that I wanted to use Alexa to control this scene so I can be on the bike or rower or whatever and just tell Alexa to change the fan speed.

It looks correct, but as with all troubleshooting, I would recommend starting small. Delete all scenes, then create a single scene and add one device at a time while testing to see if controlling the scene from the AC is behaving as desired.  Continue until something does not work as desired. 

Alexa supports fans natively, so the easiest method for Alexa is controlling the fan directly.

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, Javi said:

It looks correct, but as with all troubleshooting, I would recommend starting small. Delete all scenes, then create a single scene and add one device at a time while testing to see if controlling the scene from the AC is behaving as desired.  Continue until something does not work as desired. 

Alexa supports fans natively, so the easiest method for Alexa is controlling the fan directly.

But if Alexa controls the fan directly, the wall switch will not be coordinated with it.

[IndyMike]

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

New links table.

The device record mismatch @location 0F70 is showing a controller address of 51.1F.B3.  The ISY is showing a controller address of 51.10.B3 at the same location - I'm guessing this is the address of your PLM.  This type of error should NEVER happen.

You either have horrible communication (noise/failing PLM/etc), which you have not observed,  or you have a failing device.

Your KPL address is 05.16.14.  I have 1 remaining device in that address range.  It's an I1 ICON switch.  I would classify that as ancient (and I drive 50 year old cars).

It may be time to let go and try a new(er) KPL.  The one I tested above was from 2012.

[Javi]

48 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

But if Alexa controls the fan directly, the wall switch will not be coordinated with it.

Please see the Wiki Example to keep the KPL buttons in sync.

[auger66]

When I set a few of these up for fanlincs a several years ago, I followed the wiki instructions. I don't remember exactly the problem I had, but it was similar to yours.

My pure accident I discovered that if I deleted and readded the controller of each scene the keypad worked perfectly. I think after I discovered that I started adding the scene's controller last. I can't remember if that worked. Regardless, deleting and readding each scene controller worked for me. I can't explain why that makes a difference, but it was consistent.

Just an idea.

[apostolakisl]

12 hours ago, IndyMike said:

The device record mismatch @location 0F70 is showing a controller address of 51.1F.B3.  The ISY is showing a controller address of 51.10.B3 at the same location - I'm guessing this is the address of your PLM.  This type of error should NEVER happen.

You either have horrible communication (noise/failing PLM/etc), which you have not observed,  or you have a failing device.

Your KPL address is 05.16.14.  I have 1 remaining device in that address range.  It's an I1 ICON switch.  I would classify that as ancient (and I drive 50 year old cars).

It may be time to let go and try a new(er) KPL.  The one I tested above was from 2012.

Yes, it is old.  It is like a first gen device.  But it seems to work except for on level "off" when the ISY controls.  All the scenes as controlled from ISY work, they just turn all 4 buttons on instead of turning 3 off and one on.  So the com and addresses are all working, it is just the KPL seems to not be accepting on level off for the PLM as controller.

Anyway, I guess I'll just buy a new one and use this one somewhere I don't have on levels of off.

[IndyMike]

43 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Yes, it is old.  It is like a first gen device.  But it seems to work except for on level "off" when the ISY controls.  All the scenes as controlled from ISY work, they just turn all 4 buttons on instead of turning 3 off and one on.  So the com and addresses are all working, it is just the KPL seems to not be accepting on level off for the PLM as controller.

Anyway, I guess I'll just buy a new one and use this one somewhere I don't have on levels of off.

I checked my "used device box".  My KPL from the same date range was made in 2007.  This was back when you could buy a KPL for under $20 (Icon's were under $10).  I removed it because it had a nasty habit of corrupting it's link table.

These older devices used a very simple power supply described in Microchip: AN954

They were rather intolerant of input supply variation (poor 120V regulation) and most died an early death because of this.  The fact you and I have devices in this date range still operating indicates we owe our local Power Co. a word of thanks.  

Older devices develop problems regulating their internal 5V supply as the C2 cap begins to fail.  One of the symptoms is inability to maintain voltage during the EEprom write cycle.  I believe this is what you are experiencing now. 

On a good note, the newer devices with switching power supplies draw far less standby power.  You'll be knocking 0.5W off your utility bill.

[apostolakisl]

14 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

I checked my "used device box".  My KPL from the same date range was made in 2007.  This was back when you could buy a KPL for under $20 (Icon's were under $10).  I removed it because it had a nasty habit of corrupting it's link table.

These older devices used a very simple power supply described in Microchip: AN954

They were rather intolerant of input supply variation (poor 120V regulation) and most died an early death because of this.  The fact you and I have devices in this date range still operating indicates we owe our local Power Co. a word of thanks.  

Older devices develop problems regulating their internal 5V supply as the C2 cap begins to fail.  One of the symptoms is inability to maintain voltage during the EEprom write cycle.  I believe this is what you are experiencing now. 

On a good note, the newer devices with switching power supplies draw far less standby power.  You'll be knocking 0.5W off your utility bill.

I don't know, I feel like this is an error in the firmware.  I really am not experiencing any issues writing to the device.  And every time I write new instructions to the device, they all take as expected EXCEPT, when on level is set to off it still turns on when controlled by ISY.  I tried creating a test scene with the device and just added a single KPL button to the scene.  I set the on level to off.  And the same problem.  Turn that scene on, and the button turns on instead of off.  ISY reports it as turning off, but a query corrects the true status to on.  Turn the scene off, and the button turns off.   So, it is either a new kpl or I use programs to do it.

[IndyMike]

5 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I don't know, I feel like this is an error in the firmware.  I really am not experiencing any issues writing to the device.  And every time I write new instructions to the device, they all take as expected EXCEPT, when on level is set to off it still turns on when controlled by ISY.  I tried creating a test scene with the device and just added a single KPL button to the scene.  I set the on level to off.  And the same problem.  Turn that scene on, and the button turns on instead of off.  ISY reports it as turning off, but a query corrects the true status to on.  Turn the scene off, and the button turns off.   So, it is either a new kpl or I use programs to do it.

I understand.  That's why I started by reproducing your scene using two different vintage KPL's on my ISY994.  This, plus that you have link table errors across multiple reset/restore cycles, makes me believe that your device is failing.

Could there be two different things going on? Absolutely.  You could have a failing device and a problem with the Polisy firmware. 

Even so, when I look at your link tables, they appear to be at least partially correct.  The highlighted section below is for group #48.  It should turn button 3 on, and turn off buttons 4, 5, and 6.  It's analogous to your "Exercise Room Fan High" scene.  Unfortunately, that's not what you experienced.  All of your secondary buttons turned on.

The Polisy appears to have written this section of the table correctly.  The device is simply not executing it correctly when you call scene #48 ("Exercise Room Fan High") from the admin console.

If the table is written correctly, and we are ruling out bad communications, that leaves a bad device.