Issues after installing Tesla powerwall 3

[jkraus]

It turns out that all of my flicker lights are on one breaker.  Do you think the breaker is going bad?...although happened after Powerwall installation so kind of coincidental

[bigDvette]

1 hour ago, jkraus said:

It turns out that all of my flicker lights are on one breaker.  Do you think the breaker is going bad?...although happened after Powerwall installation so kind of coincidental

I mean maybe the breaker, could be a loose neutral or you could have a grounded neutral (I found one of those when rewiring all my switches). My situation was the whole house, every can light, under counter light, sconce would flicker occasionally (never constantly) and only when the battery is doing this stupid charge process that turns inverter on and off every minute or so trying to top up the battery.  If I set backup to 99% is does it less because evidentially 100% is 99.9 +.1 and you only need to lose .1 to make it kick back on the charger but 99% is like 99.5 and comes back on at 98.9.

 

i also had red blinking less lights on my switches showing comm issues. I had like 75 dimmer switches.  Now that they are almost all gone I have no comm issues with these remaining KPLs which now control no loads directly or the remaining switchoinc, outletlinc or wireless devices.

 

[richtimpa]

4 hours ago, CoolToys said:

Anyone tried the Leviton 42120?  I had some issues when I added solar.  I can't say for sure this fixed it but it is a whole house filter?  It might filter out both sides though.  X-10 recommended it to me 30 years ago so they have been in every house since.

What issues did you have and what did you think it helped with?

[jkraus]

I wanted to recap my situation as it may help others:

·        I had several dimmer switches controlling lights that we now flickering and Blinking after I installed solar.  I distinguish “flicker” as the constant 60hz kind of strobe effect, and “blinking” as the random blinks every few second, but random in timing

·        I had three Dimmers that we having this problem.  Two of them were Insteon, one was just a standard Lutron controlling some under cabinet LED strip lights

·        I could not seem to find an exact problem, but I think it was worse when the batteries were powering the house

·        I also had poor Insteon communication, slow downs and sometimes would not work.

·        I replaced one of the insteon switches with a non smart switch, problem solved on that one

·        I replace one of the other with a Youlink dimmer, better, but not perfect

·        I finally found out that all there light were on the same circuit, so I thought “bad breaker”, strange that would occur exactly after the installation.

·        I changed the circuit to another breaker, and the blinking got MUCH better…so a bad breaker, right?

·        Well I still have the dimmer for the under cabinet light flicker (not blinking), and I still have slow insteon communication, but mostly on the leg of the circuit that I moved

So…what is the issue, I don’t really know, but Powerwalls seem to be introducing noise…Was one breaker more sensitive to this more than another?

 

Still trying to debug

[Guy Lavoie]

Was the old breaker an ordinary breaker, or a special one (like GFI or AFCI)? A breaker producing noise would be quite unusual, unless it was very old and the contacts were worn, producing arcing or something like that.

[jkraus]

agreed, just a regular breaker, strange, for sure.  Old but nver had one fail like this, very coincidental

Edited January 22 by jkraus

[IndyMike]

@jkraus, another possibility might be that you had a device "misbehaving" on that circuit.  When you replaced the breaker, you may have inadvertently corrected the issue by power cycling all the devices on the circuit.

Only way to tell would be if the problem re-occurs, or to re-installing the suspect breaker.  I am NOT asking you to re-install... Just keep in mind that if the circuit acts up again, you can try power cycling.  If that works, you can narrow down to individual devices from there.

[CoolToys]

@jkraus To start with I agree with @IndyMike & @Guy Lavoie.  Breakers do fail. If it doesn't have full contact or it is way overloaded and trying to open but can't for some reason the breaker will introduce noise.   Both situations are bad.  I live near the coast and breakers corrode and start acting up at about 25 years.

So on to the rest of your issues.  

The under cabinet LED are they dimmable?  Many "non-dimmable" will dim and introduce a lot of noise to the line.  I had GE under cabinets that did this.

The Insteon Dimmer, model number?  Powerline only or dual band.  Old insteon or new.  I almost went full lutron when old insteon was gone and I started having switches fail.  Sadly old insteon fails too.

The lutron dimmer, slider analog or digital?  Dimmable LED's all dont' work with the older sliding style lutron dimmers.  If you have them, try 2477 or the newer digital Lutron designed for LED like a casita in all three?

The "slow" and not working insteon signals?  Can you be more specific?  How big is your system, how much is power line only?  How many "Dual band" do you have?  I try to keep one dual band on every circuit breaker.  When I replace the power line with the dual band in any place I also do the crazy thing of removing and replacing any devices not reliable hoping the communication routes will repair and will find a better path.

To answer your earlier question, I have installed a Leviton 42120 in every house since I started installing X-10 a long long time ago.  For budget reason I delayed at this house until my solar went in, and looking back I did something else at the same time.  Every bulb in the house went from incandescent to LED (20120-2012 model LED lights).  Flickering was just one of my new issues, and I think I was using an ISY 99i with a serial PLM.  For budgetary reasons, the 42120 was delayed in this house until after solar.  I could hear a change in the music in the house after solar, so my first inclination was to filter power.  I upgraded the power filters to UPS/Filters for the cleanest power in both AV racks and for every computer.  Things got way worse and I isolated that to a Cyberpower UPS from Costco.  It is gone and all Cyberpower are now APC.  The audio was fixed but there was still reliability problems with the ISY so the 42120 was next.

The other thing I did was install very cheap LED light bulbs the day after solar went in.  Many flickered when dimmed at all. Walking the house, I can see that about half of the lights are still those original LED's so I believe the 42120 fixed those.  Others I upgraded to newer models with better "flicker free" dimming.   Also the larger circuits of 6 bulbs or more are the ones that still have the older bulbs so it could be load related if your load is too low.

There are still two original old LED that flicker whenever there is an insteon command traveling the line. Two 5W LED bulbs dimmed to 50%  It is an interesting phenomenon and I leave it to watch certain programs run instead of watching the AC.  It has been spot on.

[richtimpa]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:13 AM, CoolToys said:

@jkraus To start with I agree with @IndyMike & @Guy Lavoie.  Breakers do fail. If it doesn't have full contact or it is way overloaded and trying to open but can't for some reason the breaker will introduce noise.   Both situations are bad.  I live near the coast and breakers corrode and start acting up at about 25 years.

So on to the rest of your issues.  

The under cabinet LED are they dimmable?  Many "non-dimmable" will dim and introduce a lot of noise to the line.  I had GE under cabinets that did this.

The Insteon Dimmer, model number?  Powerline only or dual band.  Old insteon or new.  I almost went full lutron when old insteon was gone and I started having switches fail.  Sadly old insteon fails too.

The lutron dimmer, slider analog or digital?  Dimmable LED's all dont' work with the older sliding style lutron dimmers.  If you have them, try 2477 or the newer digital Lutron designed for LED like a casita in all three?

The "slow" and not working insteon signals?  Can you be more specific?  How big is your system, how much is power line only?  How many "Dual band" do you have?  I try to keep one dual band on every circuit breaker.  When I replace the power line with the dual band in any place I also do the crazy thing of removing and replacing any devices not reliable hoping the communication routes will repair and will find a better path.

To answer your earlier question, I have installed a Leviton 42120 in every house since I started installing X-10 a long long time ago.  For budget reason I delayed at this house until my solar went in, and looking back I did something else at the same time.  Every bulb in the house went from incandescent to LED (20120-2012 model LED lights).  Flickering was just one of my new issues, and I think I was using an ISY 99i with a serial PLM.  For budgetary reasons, the 42120 was delayed in this house until after solar.  I could hear a change in the music in the house after solar, so my first inclination was to filter power.  I upgraded the power filters to UPS/Filters for the cleanest power in both AV racks and for every computer.  Things got way worse and I isolated that to a Cyberpower UPS from Costco.  It is gone and all Cyberpower are now APC.  The audio was fixed but there was still reliability problems with the ISY so the 42120 was next.

The other thing I did was install very cheap LED light bulbs the day after solar went in.  Many flickered when dimmed at all. Walking the house, I can see that about half of the lights are still those original LED's so I believe the 42120 fixed those.  Others I upgraded to newer models with better "flicker free" dimming.   Also the larger circuits of 6 bulbs or more are the ones that still have the older bulbs so it could be load related if your load is too low.

There are still two original old LED that flicker whenever there is an insteon command traveling the line. Two 5W LED bulbs dimmed to 50%  It is an interesting phenomenon and I leave it to watch certain programs run instead of watching the AC.  It has been spot on.

Cooltoys 

first of all, let me thank you for the large write up and you went over a lot of information. My question is regarding Insteon communications. Putting in the whole house filter and surge protector help with communicationsinsteon? Did you find that communication and queries improved?

[CoolToys]

Yes,  the 42120 filtered the noise coming in from outside the house, and my X10 and insteon reliability improved.  I can't say it was a 100% solution but a large piece of the puzzle.  That said the biggest troublemaker I have ever been 100% sure of was a Cyberpower UPS.  As soon as I unplugged it, the house went from 40% reliable to 99% reliable.  I was pretty sure it was the issue since problems started as soon as I plugged it in.  

There is a thread on Tesla Motor club about power line noise, and everyone pointing fingers but "surge protectors helping"  I think they mean noise filters but.  

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/whole-house-power-filtering.171562/

Unfortunately I checked the catalog and the 42120 has been replaced by the M2120, and the equivalent LeGrand product is now also off the market.  Lots of Din Rail single phase options out there, but not so much two phase for US style panels.  I think this is the only one left.

I got this from Leviton Contractor Support this morning "Yes, the M2120 features EMI/RFI filtering, per the UL 1283 standard."

[ELA]

EMI filter vs Insteon:

While in general, adding an EMI filter at the service entrance may be good for protecting electronics, it may be a negative for Insteon communications.    Often times Insteon users with communications issues complain about "Noise" when the real issue is often that a device is a "signal sucker".   

      Often times it is not all that important to understand which of those two that the offending device is.   Adding an Insteon Filterlinc can be the solution for either.   The Filterlinc both filters Noise from the line side and can also  "isolate" a signal sucker from the line.

With a large current device like the Power Wall it is much more important to attempt to understand whether it is a noise issue, a signal sucker issue or both.  From the descriptions written here thus far it does sound like it may be a little of both.  

It is important to be clear on the terms Surge Suppressor vs. EMI filter.    There are lots of Surge Suppressor -only devices that can be added without affecting Insteon communications.   However there are a lot of EMI filters, especially those with a simple capacitor only filter, that will degrade Insteon comms.

If Insteon offered a Filterlinc with large enough current capability that could be a solution. Since they do not, finding a custom EMI filter that that both suppresses noise from the line, but also isolates the load side may be difficult to identify and expensive.

The M2120 mentioned does not provide enough data as to what the EMI portion of it consists of.  Many inexpensive EMI filters are simply a capacitor.  The capacitor alone suppresses a wide range of frequencies, usually including the Insteon freq.  That makes it a "signal sucker" to insteon.     So adding an EMI filter at the service may actually degrade the Insteon performance unless it is one that also incorporates large inductors to isolate the load side from the capacitance.

The Power Wall vs Insteon issue is much more difficult due to the high currents involved.  An Insteon user can buy a filterlinc and install it as a fix without incurring a large expense.  If it does not work they are not out all that much.   A Power Wall size filter would be very expensive to purchase in "hopes" that it might help.

      

Edited Thursday at 12:47 AM by ELA

[bigDvette]

Communication issues applies to all this filter conversation.

 

the flickering of the loads attached to dimmers is not really affected by any of the filter recommendations. 

[ELA]

The filter discussion was primarily for the OP -Richtimpa.   He stated the communications issue was important to him.

Flickering or strobing could possibly be improved with the appropriate filter at the Power Wall.

For Flickering - As a first attempt I would try the Jasco LED bypass that I referred to in my first page post.   Have you tried those?   

They are mounted directly at each Dimmer or its load.  They can be a big help in some cases but not all.  Unfortunately they are showing out of stock presently.   They are most helpful when the dimmer is lightly loaded with an LED load.

A dimmer is susceptible to having its triac triggering upset when there is "noise" or " a "zero-cross waveform distortion" occurring with a minimal LED load.   The Jasco device turns on only near the zero-cross point in the waveform to provide a more stable load for the dimmer triggering circuit,  - at a time when the LED load is not yet conducting much current. 

[jkraus]

Rather than put in the LED bypass, is there a dimmer (higher end one) that solves it just as well?

Edited Thursday at 04:11 PM by jkraus

[bigDvette]

I’ve covered all the things I’ve done in previous posts. 
 

yes to all of them.  I have moved away from this by moving all my automation except 1 room (waiting for Tesla to come out) to inovelli matter / thread dimmers.  No flickering.

i have filters in the Powerwall / power side, TVSS noise suppressors with emi filtering.  Added them, removed them …

I can confirm it is when the inverters / chargers turn on and off or when the load is very low on the batteries.  
 

if you turn off batteries problem disappears.

its hard to isolate the pw3 as the same lines that charge the batteries also are used for discharge.  I have a bigger problem that I effectively have 2 Powerwall systems off a single meter so i need power and communications to flow across the system and filtering at the interior panel filters out signals from coming down (noise) but also up.

i think the Insteon  components are susceptible to either small changes in frequency or voltage as you can see the status leds flicker as well.

Then you get to communication issues which I was able to address by moving my plm far away (electrically) from the panel.  I have so many dual devices I assume it was just working.  The only time it really got Christmas light weird as the routine I use to change all the led brightness of switches at night and back in morning.  Lots of commands.

 

[btreinders]

Has anyone had Keypadlinc issues?  I have one that sometimes turns on the first LED and sometimes all of them randomly.  The other two Keypadlincs I have are not misbehaving so I am wondering if I have a bad one or if the Tesla Powerwall 3s are causing this?  It's the furthest from the Powerwalls too.

Edited Friday at 12:48 PM by btreinders

[paulbates]

2 minutes ago, btreinders said:

Has anyone had Keypadlinc issues?  I have one that sometimes turns on the first LED and sometimes all of them randomly.  The other two Keypadlincs I have are not misbehaving so I am wondering if I have a bad one or if the Tesla Powerwall 3s are causing this?  

It was a number of years ago, but I had a keypad that had random key behaviors: individual keys, the middle 4 of an 8 key keypad flashing on and off.. sometimes a random beep. It didn't happen very often and I seemed to be the only one that noticed.

[IndyMike]

On 1/30/2025 at 11:10 AM, jkraus said:

Rather than put in the LED bypass, is there a dimmer (higher end one) that solves it just as well?

Hard to say - not many people with Tesla powerwall's to test.  I you are willing to move away from Insteon, there are likely cost effective options out there than CAN communicate and Don't flicker. 

Obviously there are dimmers with better powerline filtering.  I happen to like the Zooz Z-wave dimmers.  They have some rather high end features (available reverse phase dimming) and I have never had an issue with flicker.  Of course I don't have a powerwall.

https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zen77-s2-dimmer/ 

Moving toward the high end of the cost scale, there's Lutron.  I linked to a Lutron white paper that explained their RTISS system that specifically addresses flicker.  From what I can see, the RTISS capability is included on the PRO products.  The links below are for their "dumb" dimmers.  The include features like selectable forward and reverse dimming control.

Amazon Maestro Pro

Lutron Maestro Specifications

If you want smart dimmers Lutron also makes the RA3 line.  In the past, Lutron did not allow Homeowners to purchase/install their RA3 products.  You have to register with them and take a training course in order to buy.  Not exactly DIY.

https://radiora3.lutron.com/us/en/lutron-advantage

Personally, I would start at the low price end and "test drive" various dimmers until I found one that I liked.  Just make sure that you've evaluated the dimmer for flicker over various Powerwall load conditions.   

 If you do find a solution - PLEASE post your findings.

[jkraus]

@bigDvette  do you think the inovelli will stop the flicker on some LED strip lights?  I ask because sometimes with a transformer involved (to low voltage) and low current demand, it can be more difficult?