Motion Sensor Only Works in Scenes, not Programs

[gregkinney]

I'm diving into motion sensors for the first time. I have an MS1 and MS2. I created a scene to turn a light on with motion and all went well. As usual I need to add a lot of parameters, so I went to try it in a program and I cannot get either sensor to work. I deleted the scenes, factory reset both motion sensors, and started from scratch. But I cannot get any functionality from the motion sensor in a program. I started my program as simple as I could:

bed nightlight Copy Copy - [ID 0325][Parent 01C3]

If
        '4F.8A.FD.1 Motion' is switched On
 
Then
        Set 'Rooms / Study / Study Cans' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

And nothing happens with the above program. Yet, if I have a scene with the motion as the controller and the 'Study Cans' as responder, it works. Any ideas?

[gregkinney]

Yes, I chose control switched on

[IndyMike]

On 3/31/2025 at 3:27 PM, gregkinney said:

I'm diving into motion sensors for the first time. I have an MS1 and MS2. I created a scene to turn a light on with motion and all went well. As usual I need to add a lot of parameters, so I went to try it in a program and I cannot get either sensor to work. I deleted the scenes, factory reset both motion sensors, and started from scratch. But I cannot get any functionality from the motion sensor in a program. I started my program as simple as I could:

bed nightlight Copy Copy - [ID 0325][Parent 01C3]

If
        '4F.8A.FD.1 Motion' is switched On
 
Then
        Set 'Rooms / Study / Study Cans' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

And nothing happens with the above program. Yet, if I have a scene with the motion as the controller and the 'Study Cans' as responder, it works. Any ideas?

That should work.  If it doesn't your PLM isn't hearing the Motion Sensor or has lost the link for it.

Open the Event viewer and trigger the motion sensor to see if the PLM is registering the communication.  You should also see the program executing your "study cans on" command.  Please post the results.

Other options:

1. Make sure your program folder isn't disabled.
2. Power cycle the PLM and ISY.
3. Check the number of links in your PLM (max 1000)

Edited April 6 by IndyMike

[gregkinney]

1. Program folder is not disabled

2. I power cycled the PLM and ISY

3. Five tests with results: 24, 46, 486, 288, 4

I checked event viewer. When you say "trigger the motion sensor", do you mean basically create motion? I did that. First, I did it with a scene to make sure all was working. I did it with the scene and the motion triggered the light to come on. I did not see anything in the event viewer with the motion sensor - only the address of the light that came on. I then deleted the scene and tried it in the program. I did not see anything in the event viewer, nor did I see anything in the program executing. The small line on the left of the program icon was red, the larger portion on the right was white, and it stayed that color.

[IndyMike]

On 3/31/2025 at 5:20 PM, gregkinney said:

1. Program folder is not disabled

2. I power cycled the PLM and ISY

3. Five tests with results: 24, 46, 486, 288, 4

I checked event viewer. When you say "trigger the motion sensor", do you mean basically create motion? I did that. First, I did it with a scene to make sure all was working. I did it with the scene and the motion triggered the light to come on. I did not see anything in the event viewer with the motion sensor - only the address of the light that came on. I then deleted the scene and tried it in the program. I did not see anything in the event viewer, nor did I see anything in the program executing. The small line on the left of the program icon was red, the larger portion on the right was white, and it stayed that color.

#4 - sounds like you ISY (EISY) is being interrupted during the PLM record read.  You may want to try in "off" hours.

I was asking you to "trigger the  motion sensor" (create motion) to see if the PLM registered the communication.  

Since you did NOT see any communication in the event viewer, you are NOT receiving the signal from the motion sensor.  

Either your PLM is outside the RF/powerline range of the motion sensor (unlikely since your just re-added the sensor),

...or the PLM does not have the correct link records to receive the communication.  Normally, that would imply that you have exceeded the PLM link record capability (~1000 links).  

Edited April 6 by IndyMike

[gregkinney]

Is there a better way to check the PLM link thing? The results were so erratic. I have a ton of stuff. I had an issue years ago and tech support determined it was because I exceeded PLM link capacity. I deleted a whole home scene which was hundreds of links and I've been fine ever since. Wondering if I've crept back up.

[paulbates]

While it won't help at the moment, Insteon announced that a new PLM is coming, hopefully this summer/year. One of the features is a bigger links table.

[gregkinney]

@paulbates yesssssss! That's exciting.

[Brian H]

If it is like the one never seeing the light of day in the FCC Database. It would have a larger faster Link Database; faster processor clock, more universal power supply. Like 120 220VAC  50 60Hz.

Edited March 31 by Brian H

[paulbates]

4 minutes ago, Brian H said:

If it is like the one never seeing the light of day in the FCC Database. It would have a larger faster Link Database; faster processor clock, more universal power supply. Like 120 220VAC  50 60Hz.

Bigger link table and upgraded components is all I found out. I am hoping for i3 comms but didn't get a response on that either way.

[IndyMike]

11 hours ago, gregkinney said:

Is there a better way to check the PLM link thing? The results were so erratic. I have a ton of stuff. I had an issue years ago and tech support determined it was because I exceeded PLM link capacity. I deleted a whole home scene which was hundreds of links and I've been fine ever since. Wondering if I've crept back up.

Sounds like you stepped over the magic line again.  I find it is best to run the PLM test in the early AM when the rest of the house is asleep.

Two consecutive tests with the same # of links is considered a good test.

You could also try performing a "restore modem".  In doing this the ISY may be able to recover link records by consolidating memory from deleted devices and scenes. Perform a ISY backup first to be safe.

I just performed this on my PLM and was able to recover 150 records (I do a lot of adding/deleting during testing).

[gregkinney]

I tried the restore modem, then tried to add another MS1 and it did not work in a program.

Regarding PLM link counting: I tried it this morning and got link results: 4, 27, 268, 6. Abandoning the count method, I tried another way: I took a spare dimmer module I have in the closet. I added it to ISY, set a program to turn it on at a certain time, and it worked. Based on that very long logic, I believe that proves that it's not a link capacity issue.

I appreciate your help but I think I'm at the end of the time I'm going to spend on the project. I have a zwave motion sensor that I was using for luxe. I tried to do my night light project with it in the program using motion, and it works perfectly. So I guess I'll abandon Insteon motion sensors and opt for zwave ones (although I hate zwave tech - I will always opt for Insteon when I can because it's so much more reliable). Oh well. I'll live to fight another day.

[IndyMike]

56 minutes ago, gregkinney said:

Regarding PLM link counting: I tried it this morning and got link results: 4, 27, 268, 6. Abandoning the count method, I tried another way: I took a spare dimmer module I have in the closet. I added it to ISY, set a program to turn it on at a certain time, and it worked. Based on that very long logic, I believe that proves that it's not a link capacity issue.

Not quite.  The ISY knows the address of the dimmer module - it sends that address to the PLM so it can communicate with the device.

If you are over the link limit, the PLM will not be able to find the address of the dimmer.  If you manually activate the dimmer, the PLM will ignore the communication (just as it is doing with the MS).

The Z-wave motion will circumvent the problem for the time being.  No telling how many devices/links you have that are beyond the magic #.

Which Z-wave motion are you using? I'm always on the lookout for reliable motion sensors. 

[gregkinney]

7 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

Not quite.  The ISY knows the address of the dimmer module - it sends that address to the PLM so it can communicate with the device.

If you are over the link limit, the PLM will not be able to find the address of the dimmer.  If you manually activate the dimmer, the PLM will ignore the communication (just as it is doing with the MS).

Is there any way for me to determine whether I am over link limit besides the count? I'll try again first thing tomorrow morning if not but I am losing faith in that method. I remember doing it years ago and it wasn't difficult. The numbers were not all over the place like they are now.

9 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

Which Z-wave motion are you using? I'm always on the lookout for reliable motion sensors. 

I am using Aeotec Multisensor 7. My experience has been great. They were easy to add. I've been using them for lux for a couple years and they have performed well. In my tests for motion, so far they have been instant and accurate.

[gregkinney]

Ok I re-read your post. I went to re-write the program to say if dimmer is switched on, then turn on study cans. When I logged back into the admin, the dimmer was gone. So I added it again, wrote the program, and it did nothing. Guessing these two things point to link limit. Now how to reduce links...

Edited April 1 by gregkinney

[IndyMike]

I don't have a good answer to your question on how to determine PLM link record #'s.  Earlier posts suggested putting the PLM on a filterlinc to "reduce" insteon communication (https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/6979-countingestimating-plm-links/#findComment-55359).  I've actually had limited success with that - probably due to RF communication.

As far as reducing the link count - have a look at your large scenes to see if you have redundancies.  

Unfortunately, if you can't get a good link count, you won't know how many links to delete.

Thanks for the Aeotec info.  

[gregkinney]

Problem solved. I deleted some large scenes and now the MS2 is working via program. So very frustrating. Wish there was a better way to figure out link count. Can't wait for the new PLM. Thank you all for the help.