Linking new insteon devices not working

[ta2four]

Hi,

First question: How do I upgrade my isy994i(1120)? A link to the firmware would be great. I'm currently running v4.9.0

I'm trying to add some new devices and most of them are failing to be added. Not sure if the devices are "too new" for the firmware.

One device, a 6 button KeypadLinc gets added but the "A", "B", "C", "D" buttons don't show up. The device (according to the isy) is a: 2334-2 KeypadLinc Dimmer 5 Buttons v.45. However only one device is added (the A,B,C,D buttons are not added) when I click add. 

The other devices are just regular 2477D Dual band SwitchLinc Dimmer v.45. When I click "Finish" the "Status" in the "New Insteon Devices" window changes to "Add Failed" and the only error I get is "Cannot Add Insteon Device".

Not sure if there are logs I can look at to figure out why it is failing. A link to the trouble shooting guide would be helpful. 

I'm hoping that this is a firmware issue and upgrading the firmware will fix the problems.

Thanks for your help. Let me know if you need screenshots.

[Guy Lavoie]

Look here. But if you're having trouble adding device types that are the same as some you already have, then something else might be wrong, like your PLM going bad.

 

 

[ta2four]

Thanks. I'm not using z-wave... hopefully it is not a requirement to use my new switches. Since I'm not using z-wave, I really hope that I don't have to worry about the possibility of "rebuilding your network" talked about in the notes section. I have lots of switches, scenes and programs that would take months to rebuild. I was actually wondering if I hit the limit on the number of switches that I can add to the ISY. Is there a limit?

[Guy Lavoie]

There is a limit of the number of links that the PLM can have. It's something around 1000 (or 1024). You really need a large amount of devices (a couple of hundred) to hit that. You see how many you have by going in Tools -> Diagnostics -> Show PLM Links Table. Click on Start and wait for the links to be retrieved. Then click on Count.

[Geddy]

@ta2four ****BEFORE YOU RANDOMLY UPDATE****

Know that there is a huge change from 4.x to 5.x. Hopefully you haven't updated yet. You need to prepare yourself for the update. 

Make a copy of all your programs - on program tab right click the "My Programs" (root) folder and select "Copy Folder to Clipboard" (note COPY...do not "export"). Paste that into a text editor (Windows PC use Notepad). SAVE THAT FILE!

You should be able to add devices you're adding to your existing ISY994 with 4.9.0 firmware. You might want to resolve that issue first. Only things that would have issues is if you're adding i3 devices from Insteon (the newest devices they've released). Legacy type items should add without issue to 4.9.0.

[ta2four]

Thanks. I have 477. So should be ok, I guess.

[Geddy]

2 hours ago, ta2four said:

"Cannot Add Insteon Device"

How are you linking devices? Are you typing in the code or using automatic linking? I would try the automatic way and see if that adds everything for you.

Wiki info: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Link_Management_Menu

I usually just use the "Start Linking" option. I don't get into the specific type. It's simple enough. If the devices are new you might still want to perform a factory reset (see Insteon's manual for steps for each device you're adding). It's usually a good thing to remove any links found as even "new" devices can have ghost links from any factory testing performed. 

[ta2four]

6 minutes ago, Geddy said:

@ta2four ****BEFORE YOU RANDOMLY UPDATE****

Know that there is a huge change from 4.x to 5.x. Hopefully you haven't updated yet. You need to prepare yourself for the update. 

Make a copy of all your programs - on program tab right click the "My Programs" (root) folder and select "Copy Folder to Clipboard" (note COPY...do not "export"). Paste that into a text editor (Windows PC use Notepad). SAVE THAT FILE!

You should be able to add devices you're adding to your existing ISY994 with 4.9.0 firmware. You might want to resolve that issue first. Only things that would have issues is if you're adding i3 devices from Insteon (the newest devices they've released). Legacy type items should add without issue to 4.9.0.

Ok. I'm on board with that! This is a relatively low priority item right now and I have 10 other things in my life that are causing me grief right now so I really don't need to blow away my smart lighting on top of it! Thanks for the heads up. If the devices should link without the firmware update then I'll avoid the extra headache.

The new devices that I'm trying to add are quite a distance from the isy and/or plm. I purchased a signal booster at one point and haven't installed it yet so maybe I will try that. Having the devices show up on the ISY when I "link" them but raise an error when I try to "add" them is puzzling. Could it be that they are too far away from another device that is already mapped? Having said that, I was able to link one device a few months ago and the new devices that do not link are inches away (basically in the same switch bank). The device that I was able to link is the same (2477D V.45). Any thoughts on how to debug it would be helpful.

[Geddy]

2 minutes ago, ta2four said:

Any thoughts on how to debug it would be helpful.

I'm not 100% sure if works in the linking method, but open event viewer and set it to level 3. It might show stuff while items are trying to link, but not sure...I've never attempted it. If you're "FAR" away from the PLM it makes me wonder about the PLM itself or noise in your electrical system that isn't letting the Insteon traffic get back to the PLM or ISY994. How old are most of your other Insteon devices? If all/most are recent (last 10 years) then they're usually 2 methods of communicating via powerline or RF. As long as you have other devices close they should be repeating the signals and should be able to add something you have within inches of another. 

[ta2four]

1 minute ago, Geddy said:

How are you linking devices? Are you typing in the code or using automatic linking? I would try the automatic way and see if that adds everything for you.

Wiki info: https://wiki.universal-devices.com/ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Link_Management_Menu

I tried both ways. The "Automatic way" (clicking on the "start linking" button and then pressing the tab on the switch until it beeps) gets me to a point where the device shows up in the list. Then when I click "Finish" it says failed to add. I added a screenshot.

[ta2four]

1 minute ago, Geddy said:

I'm not 100% sure if works in the linking method, but open event viewer and set it to level 3. It might show stuff while items are trying to link, but not sure...I've never attempted it. If you're "FAR" away from the PLM it makes me wonder about the PLM itself or noise in your electrical system that isn't letting the Insteon traffic get back to the PLM or ISY994. How old are most of your other Insteon devices? If all/most are recent (last 10 years) then they're usually 2 methods of communicating via powerline or RF. As long as you have other devices close they should be repeating the signals and should be able to add something you have within inches of another. 

Yep. That's my thinking too. The old devices are at most 12 years old. The new devices could be brand new (1 year) or at most 5 years old - sitting in a box-unopened until they were installed a 6 months ago. I have a spare PLM. The original PLM died many years ago but was able to solder in some new capacitors (etc - can't remember what I replaced off the top of my head) to get it working again so I never used the PLM I bought to replace it. Maybe I'll try to find the "Line booster" or whatever it was that I bought... and  install it.

I tried level 3... "failed to add device - reason 1"

[ta2four]

I plugged in the "2922-222 Insteon Plug-in Range Extender, Repeater and Access Point" and tried to link it. The ISY found it but gave me an "Unsupported device:0.29" error. The failure reason in the event log was reason 10. Let me know what you think when you have time.

[Brian H]

25 minutes ago, ta2four said:

I plugged in the "2922-222 Insteon Plug-in Range Extender, Repeater and Access Point" and tried to link it. The ISY found it but gave me an "Unsupported device:0.29" error. The failure reason in the event log was reason 10. Let me know what you think when you have time.

Like the Access Point devices. You do not physically link them into your ISY994i. They just process Insteon messages and resend them back into the system. You can use the built in Communications aka the 4 Tap. To see how it is working with modules.

[ta2four]

32 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Like the Access Point devices. You do not physically link them into your ISY994i. They just process Insteon messages and resend them back into the system. You can use the built in Communications aka the 4 Tap. To see how it is working with modules.

Thanks. I wasn't expecting that the device would be completely plug-n-play. Not sure what " 4 Tap" is... no need to explain unless it is easy to do so. I'll trust that it is completely plug-n-play.

After plugging the repeater back in, I tried to add one of the switches that was failing with reason = 1. It still fails so the repeater didn't help.

Tried a factory reset on the switch by pulling out the tab and then pressing it in for 10 seconds. Still didn't help. 

I tried putting the switch into linking mode before putting the isy into linking mode. With the device flashing green I put the isy into linking mode. In this state the ISY doesn't find the device at all. Not sure if that's helpful in debugging.

Another thing that may be important... I have two electrical panels in my home... I have devices on both panels that are connected to the ISY and they work fine. I was originally surprised by this but I guess they are getting the signal via RF instead of the PLM?? Forgive me if I got the terminology wrong. Anyways, all of the devices that are failing are on the panel that IS NOT connected to the PLM. My guess is that the RF signal isn't strong enough to traverse the 100' to the nearest switch on the panel with the PLM. This may explain the issue but doesn't really explain why I was able to get one switch to link.

If the double-electrical panel is the issue, how do I bridge across the two neutrals so that the devices will all communicate correctly? Is there are special insteon product that does that?

[Guy Lavoie]

If you have spare dual band lamp modules handy, try putting one on each panel. They will act as phase couplers. If your nearest working device is 100' away from your new ones, then that would probably explain your problems with linking. Try temporarily bringing one of the new switches near your working ones and try again.

[ta2four]

2 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

If you have spare dual band lamp modules handy, try putting one on each panel. They will act as phase couplers. If your nearest working device is 100' away from your new ones, then that would probably explain your problems with linking. Try temporarily bringing one of the new switches near your working ones and try again.

Great. Thanks. I have a range extender but I don't think I'm using it correctly. I put it near to the devices that were not working (on phase2) but I suspect it was too far from other devices and plm (on phase1) to bridge the gap. However, I moved it (keeping it on phase2) but closer to the plm. I think this should have worked, but it didn't help, unfortunately. Is a PLM/ISY device reset required to sync everything up again? I'm out of ideas now. (Not sure what you mean by "Try temporarily bridging one of the new switches near your working ones and try again". I could put a lamp module on the end of an extension cord plugged into phase1 and bring that lamp module closer to the devices on phase2 that are not working (is that what you are getting at). I can't move the switches that aren't working any closer to the plm or the phase1 network since they are wired into the wall (lol).

[Guy Lavoie]

What I said was "bring" it, not "bridge". Basically, install it temporarily near other working devices, and try linking. If it's a wall switch, connect the white and black wires to a power cord and plug it in. The idea is to determine if it's the switch itself that's the problem, or it's location.

Plugging a lamp module into a long extension cord to bring it close is also a viable thing to try.

[ta2four]

Yep. I'm with you now. I brought the lamp module (on phase1) halfway to the non-working devices (on Phase 2) and tested the lamp module to make sure it was still getting signals over the extension cord. No issues there. Linking the new devices still failed. So, I guess I'm at the point of taking one of the switches out of the wall, moving it closer to the network and seeing if it will sync at all. ugh. I have some new switches in a box. Maybe i'll try one of those first. I'm spent for today. Thanks for your help. I may not get back to this tomorrow (or until next year) but since I had your ear it was worth giving it a try today. 

[Brian H]

FYI The Range Extender is actually a 2457D3 Lamplinc with the dimmer parts not installed. Just for a quick fun. Look at the FCC Number on the Range Extender and your Lamplinc. It will be the same.

It may be a device on the effected electrical box. Making power line noise or is a signal sucker and killing the power line signal but the RF maybe still functioning.

https://cache.insteon.com/pdf/2992-222-us.pdf

[Techman]

@ta2four

Take a look at these troubleshooting tips. Your issues appear to be with communications between the devices and your PLM.

 

INSTEON: Troubleshooting Communications Errors - Universal Devices, Inc. Wiki

INSTEON Signal / Noise Troubleshooting - Universal Devices, Inc. Wiki

https://youtu.be/NMx5yHTU2g4

[kclenden]

12 hours ago, ta2four said:

I tried level 3... "failed to add device - reason 1"

The Event Viewer log you posted does not show a communication issue.

9 hours ago, ta2four said:

I have some new switches in a box. Maybe i'll try one of those first.

I'm 99.9% sure you'll get the same result with the new switches.

13 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

There is a limit of the number of links that the PLM can have. It's something around 1000 (or 1024).

Guy is correct, there is a limit, though it depends on whether you have the PRO model, or not.  Given your result, I'm guessing you don't have the PRO model which means your limit is much lower.  Here is a link to a discussion from 2019 which I think covers your issue:

 

Edited 16 hours ago by kclenden

[Brian H]

From the above thread. With no PRO module added. Your limits are much lower.

Posted October 12, 2019

The sales page shows. The ISY994i has Max Nodes 254, Max Programs 300. Pro models Max Nodes 1023,  Max Programs 1024.

The early 2412S link database is like 417 links later 2412S was ~2000 but 800 was what most found before a time out was caused. 2413S is 1000.

Edited 10 hours ago by Brian H

[IndyMike]

.

Edited 7 hours ago by IndyMike

[Guy Lavoie]

The "Pro" thing is a node limit in the ISY994i, which is different from the link limit in the PLM. It might still be worth checking out though.

[ta2four]

I deleted a few devices (a lamp controller and two remotes I wasn't using) and was able to add 2 devices without issue. 

So, it would appear that I did hit a limit of some sort.

I haven't programmed the devices yet, but at least I got them added. 

I'll look into upgrading to a PRO ISY device. Is replacing the ISY with a PRO version as simple as doing a backup and restore? or is there more to it?