LeeG Posted December 15, 2010 Share Posted December 15, 2010 Illusion Can you post another motion On from that motion sensor. It would be good to know if there are always multiple Group Cleanup messages from the motion sensor or multiple Group Cleanups only when the failure happens. There may a marginal communication problem with that motion sensor most of the time or perhaps the retries are indicative of an intermittent RF problem. Also, what is the PLM revision level? Lee Link to comment
LeeG Posted December 15, 2010 Share Posted December 15, 2010 Illusion More data on the unsolicited On message. I checked the trace on the PowerHome forum describing a similar situation. It is very close to your trace. In the Powerhome case the motion sensor is issuing an Off sequence. Immediately following the Group Cleanup with the max hop count of 1 from the motion sensor there is a Group Cleanup from another switch. No initial Group Broadcast message from the other switch which is the same as your situation. The only difference is on the PowerHome trace the motion sensor receives the ACK and does not retry the Group Cleanup with the max hop count 3. Two traces does not make the case for sure but it is looking like either an issue with the motion sensor, the switch firmware where it is reacting to the motion sensor sequence, or the PLM. I am asking the same questions on the PowerHome forum .... motion sensor version ? switch type and firmware revision ? PLM type and firmware revision ? Perhaps a commonality between the two configurations can be found. Lee Link to comment
Illusion Posted December 17, 2010 Author Share Posted December 17, 2010 Lee. Here is a level 3 event trace from each of my Motion Detectors in succession. PLM is Version v.92 Pulled switch and replacement switch are both v.27 Switchlinc Dimmers All MDs are REV 1.1 I have added the pulled switch back into my system without a load. I Factory Reset it and the only link it should have is to the PLM I had this pulled switch in system for a long time without any issues. While this issue only surfaced after the new PLM was put in the system, I am not understanding how it could possibly be caused by the PLM. To me as a lay person, it seems the first hint of the switch in the event trace is the report from the switch to the PLM saying it has been turned on, and I know for a fact the light in the bathroom is indeed really on as a result of this. Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.31 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.31-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [ A 3C 31 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.31 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.31-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.31 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:55 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.31-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:56 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.31 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:56 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3C.31-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3F.38 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3F.38-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [ A 3F 38 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3F.38 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3F.38-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3F.38 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:28:59 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3F.38-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:00 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3F.38 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:00 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3F.38-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:01 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.FB 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:01 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.FB-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:01 PM : [ A 3C FB 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.FB 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.FB-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.FB 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3C.FB-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3C.FB 13.24.AA 42 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:02 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3C.FB-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:18 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:18 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3E.E6-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:18 PM : [ A 3E E6 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3E.E6-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [standard-Group][0A.3E.E6-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3E.E6-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 13.24.AA 42 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3E.E6-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0A.3E.E6 13.24.AA 42 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:19 PM : [standard-Cleanup][0A.3E.E6-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9B.18 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [standard-Group][11.9B.18-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [ 11 9B 18 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9B.18 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [standard-Group][11.9B.18-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9B.18 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:31 PM : [standard-Group][11.9B.18-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:32 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9B.18 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:32 PM : [standard-Cleanup][11.9B.18-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Group][11.9E.0B-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [ 11 9E B 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Group][11.9E.0B-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Group][11.9E.0B-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Cleanup][11.9E.0B-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 13.24.AA 42 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Cleanup][11.9E.0B-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.9E.0B 13.24.AA 42 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:46 PM : [standard-Cleanup][11.9E.0B-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:51 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.A1.45 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:51 PM : [standard-Group][11.A1.45-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:51 PM : [ 11 A1 45 1] DON 1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.A1.45 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [standard-Group][11.A1.45-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : Duplicate: ignored Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.A1.45 00.00.01 C7 11 01 LTONRR (01): Process Message: failed Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [standard-Group][11.A1.45-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=1 Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.A1.45 13.24.AA 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) Fri 12/17/2010 02:29:52 PM : [standard-Cleanup][11.A1.45-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Link to comment
LeeG Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 Thanks for the additional motion sensor traces. I’ll sum up what I see in the hopes it will generate some ideas from others. The symptom is a SwitchLinc physically turns On coincident with the SwitchLinc sending a Group Cleanup message to the PLM as though the paddle was pressed (there was no paddle press). This has occurred on three SwitchLincs at different firmware revisions (v27 & v39). Although only two failure traces, one from ISY and one from PowerHome, both occur at the same point in a motion sensor state change Group message sequence. One was a motion On and one was a motion Off. There have been rumors about a new command but to this point nothing has been documented that the motion sensor could send to the SwitchLinc to cause it to change from a Responder to a Controller and send the Group Cleanup message. In both traces the Group Broadcast from the SwitchLinc is not present. It is not a false message generated by the PLM to the ISY/PowerHome as that would not explain the SwitchLinc physically turning On. Group Broadcast from motion sensor – Group On and Off Group Broadcast from motion sensor = Group On and Off Group Broadcast from motion sensor – Group On and Off Group Cleanup from motion sensor to PLM – Group On and Off Group Cleanup from SwitchLinc to PLM – Group On To summarize, this is not a symptom that can be explained within the Insteon command protocol I am familiar with. The actual failure appears to be the SwitchLinc tact switch but it has occurred with three different SwitchLincs at two different firmware levels and so far always coincident with a motion sensor Group On or Off message sequence. Thoughts from others would be appreciated. Link to comment
Illusion Posted December 18, 2010 Author Share Posted December 18, 2010 Lee, The first instance of this for me that started this post reinforces your summary of the pattern. While not an event trace I am able to tell from the original log that the same sequence of events preceded the original failure. I would like to add that the motion detector that may have tripped the first failure in the switch was not the same as the one for which I sent you an event trace. Based on the 3 lights that turned on outside just before the bathroom vanity turned itself on I can tell that that was a motion detector in my front yard. It was dark out and the ISY triggerd my front flood lighting scene in response to the motion event. The event trace I posted was from a motion detector in my back yard, during the day, where the ISY did not subsequently trigger any scene due to time of day. Link to comment
LeeG Posted December 18, 2010 Share Posted December 18, 2010 Illusion, Thanks for that added information. In the Powerhome case it would obviously be a third motion sensor. Also, that was a motion Off message sequence which would seem even less likely to trigger something that resulted in the SwitchLinc turning On. How the motion sensor sequence enters into this problem is not clear. There is a piece of information that is yet to be understood. Maybe something locked up in a confidential file at Smartlabs, something that makes this at least a theoretical failure. I'm sure less so from your perspective since you have a visual effect but this is a fascinating problem. Normally a symptom can be explained by some activity, some event that falls within the capability of the published protocol, even if it is very unlikely. In this case I cannot relate the end result to any known published capability. Lee Link to comment
Illusion Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Added data point: I installed a new switch during this test some time ago. The switch I removed was factory reset and installed in my home with no load. It was then added to only the ISY and programs were built to watch this switch as well. It is called 'Test Switch' Today the problem event occurred again. The bathroom vanity "was turned on". The test switch did not react. Sorry Lee, no event trace. I think my next step is to remove the bathroom vanity switch from the ISY, factory reset it, and then add it back in not restoring it, but building it from scratch. Maybe there is something getting programed in there somehow. The previous problem switch that now sits just for monitoring purposes has never "been turned on" by a ghost. Link to comment
Michel Kohanim Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Illusion, This reminds of my early days of testing KPLs versions 2A and 2D both of which intermittently caused other devices to turn on. Do yo have any of those in your system? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment
Illusion Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Yeah, I have a couple of v.2D KPLs. So you have seen a device cause another device to report that it has physically been turned on before? My issue is not a mysterious turning on issue, it is that the problem device is reporting that it has been physically switched on locally. Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There are now three traced events on the Powerhome forum for this situation. In all three cases a motion sensor message sequence precedes the switch sending a message that is was turned On. No known command can cause this result. The motion sensors are not linked to the switchs. Different systems involved. Have not heard of a solution so far. Link to comment
dnl Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have been following this thread with much interest. I am a new user of Insteon devices and the ISY so I probably can't add much to this issue but I do have two questions. Is it known for certain that the Insteon device itself is issuing the messages? Is it possible that a bug in the PLM could cause the PLM to issue a bogus event in response to what it receives from the motion sensor? Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Is it known for certain that the Insteon device itself is issuing the messages? There is no absolute about this but the message has the from Insteon address of the switch and the switch has turned On. Is it possible that a bug in the PLM could cause the PLM to issue a bogus event Since the switch turns On it is not a false message generated by the PLM. Link to comment
dnl Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Hi LeeG, Sorry, I did not mention the thought that the switch might be responding to a command the PLM sends out. I mention the PLM because apparently the problem for Illusion started after he replaced his PLM. I thought maybe the new PLM might have a different firmware version -- maybe with a new bug or with an old bug now revealed because something else in the firmware changed. I also thought the PLM would be able to generate a valid device address because (I think) device addresses are stored in the PLM -- correct? Even so, I guess it is unlikely that the PLM would keep picking the address for the switch in this particular location. I offer the thoughts for whatever they are worth. Maybe they can stimulate better ideas. Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There is no known command that a device can send to another device that will turn the device On and then have that device send a message that occurs only when the paddle is pressed. Yes, the PLM contains a link database just like any other Insteon device. The PLM will not pass powerline messages to the application (ISY in this case) unless the PLM has at least a Responder record for the device that sent the message. Appreciate your thoughts. I would really like to know the cause of this symptom. Link to comment
TJF1960 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I think my next step is to remove the bathroom vanity switch from the ISY, factory reset it, and then add it back in not restoring it, but building it from scratch. Maybe there is something getting programmed in there somehow. The previous problem switch that now sits just for monitoring purposes has never "been turned on" by a ghost. Illusion, I was just going to ask if the new switch was "Replaced" via the ISY or if it was "built from scratch." Since the problem followed thru to the new device this does seem to be a logical next step. Although if that fixes it the root cause may never be known. Lee, I was wondering if all of the reported cases were using 2412S plm's? I too am following this with fascination! Thanks, Tim Link to comment
Illusion Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Tim, I have not wiped the switch just yet. I do find it interesting that the original problem switch has not "Ghosted On" since the factory reset. I will wait till I am really frustrated before I rebuild the bathroom vanity switch from scratch. But at this point I am not sure what I am waiting for. I have no idea how to proceed from here otherwise. I do not know what additional data I could provide to help find the root cause of something that cannot happen in theory. What do you think of my new term "Ghosted On?" Any other ideas for a cool name for this event? Link to comment
TJF1960 Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I like it! In fact early on in the thread I was going to suggest it was a ghost or poltergeist but you beat me to it. Or how about “the poltergeist effect.†I wonder if this switch were a controller of a scene if the scene would turn on. I guess that it probably would. I guess at this point anything and everything you do and try will be a step forward in figuring this all out. Link to comment
Illusion Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 “the poltergeist effect†I like it, but not for the event, for the overarching cause, as in: Due to the poltergeist effect, my device again ghosted on. This way we get to use both terms... Link to comment
Illusion Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Bathroom vanity ghosted on again last night in response to motion event. Test switch did not react. When I get some time next month I am going to do the rebuild from scratch. Before I do this, is there any info I can pull from the switch's database that could be helpful in troubleshooting this. The link table looks fine to me but I am not a link table expert. Link to comment
LeeG Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 With the symptom being location specific, not unique to a physical switch, it suggests the switch is being commanded to turn On. I guess it could be electrical in the sense that the power to the switch is fluctuating causing the switch to turn On but that would not explain the Motion Sensor coincidence. Also because of the coincidence of motion being sensed it is more likely to be commanded rather than noise. It would be a good idea “Save†the link database information just in case. Link to comment
Illusion Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Posting mostly for record keeping here. Over the last several months the switch has continued to ghost on. The original switch that was replaced and is in system as a test has never ghosted on. Today, 2-28-2011, I upgraded to 2.8.16 and removed the vanity switch from the ISY. I then factory reset it and added it back to the ISY. I then put it in all the scenes and programs in the ISY manually, just like it was a new device. I do have programs that watch this switch at all times and I will report back here if it ever ghosts on again. Fingers crossed. If this does not work... I am all out of ideas after this. Link to comment
Illusion Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Bathroom vanity ghosted on again today. So, completely deleting it and adding it back in did not fix the issue. I am out of ideas. I have 162 nodes in my Insteon install and this is the only one with this issue. Down right baffling. Link to comment
dnl Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Illusion, Have you tried keeping the switch connected to a light but not adding it to the ISY? or having a friend without a ISY wire it into his house? This might confirm the switch is doing this on its own and is not being acted on by something else. Link to comment
Illusion Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 The original switch that displayed this problem has been factory reset and has been powered up for months without an errant ghost on. It is not connected to a load however. Link to comment
dnl Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Illusion, I offer these ideas for things to try so that you might discover what is unusual to your situation. You mentioned this switch is a 2476D. You could try a different model of switch, especially one that does not have a dimmer. I do not know what type of load you have. You could try a different type of load (especially if you eliminate the dimmer) or at least you could swap out the lights you have been using. It seems unlikely the load could cause this problem but the problem itself is unlikely. Any chance you could try a different PLM? Didn't this problem start after you changed PLM? These thoughts may not be very helpful. Maybe they will give rise to better ideas. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.