dishwasher - 20amp circuit switching

[oskrypuch]

Not an ISY question per see, but a lot of experienced folks here.

Q. I need a 110v insteon device that will handle up to 20amp for switching a dishwasher. Any suggestions??

 

Why would I want that, if interested here is the story ...

 

I'm setting up protection against water leaks. Have Waterbug sensors set up in multiple locations in the basement, and water being sensed will deactivate a solenoid that keeps the water supply flowing. All good.

 

Have sensors at the clothes washer and dishwasher, but this will NOT stop a leak from the discharge hoses.

 

I want to be able to kill the power to both of these devices as well in the event of a discharge leak, killing the power kills the pump and stops the leak. There is a 220v 30amp relay for insteon so the clothes washer can be handled.

 

* Orest

[Brian H]

Although this module is listed as a 220 volt unit.

It uses 120 volts for power and is a 30 amp unit.

Has both lines and neutral inputs. You can use the Line that powers it and has a switched output for switching your dishwasher. Ignoring the Isolated Line two input and output if you care to.

It can be used on 120 volts by not using the second line input and outputs that are on a separate relay.

It is also discontinued and the ones still being sold are reconditioned.

I have an early production one and it works fine on 120 volts.

The users manual is avilable if you care to see if maybe something you could use.

http://www.simplehomenet.com/proddetail ... 9357345387

 

Another way would be an ApplianceLinc switching a heavy duty contactor with a 120 volt AC coil.

[oskrypuch]

That unit may indeed be perfect. A shame it was discontinued, and is only available reconditioned "as is".

 

* Orest

[Brian H]

In the downloads tab of the page.

http://www.simplehomenet.com/Downloads/ ... -start.pdf

 

It is also much less in price for the Refurbished ones over the new ones original cost.

[oskrypuch]

Thanks, found the manual.

 

Very tempting, and yes a very good price.

 

The device is defined in ISY, right?

 

* Orest

[oskrypuch]

Do you ship to Canada?

 

* Orest

[Brian H]

You would have to ask Simplehomenet if they ship to Canada.

http://www.simplehomenet.com/

 

I know they list a Canadian Automation dealer on their web site.

[ELA]

When switching something other than a resistive load be careful to check the relay contact ratings.

 

Simplehomenet also advertises this:

 

ZBMLC30-2 - Dual (30/15A) Relay with Energy Meter - Model #4031A

 

As coming soon. It appears to address loads that are not resistive but is more spendy.

 

The Smarthome:

INSTEON 220V / 240V 30 AMP Load Controller Normally Open Relay (Dual-Band)

 

States that it is for resistive loads only.

 

Washers have inductive loads and may eat up the relays if they are not rated appropriately.

[Brian H]

The DB LECTRO NT90RNCS110CB Relays in the EZSwitch30. Have some fairly high ratings. 1 and 1/2 HP for a 250 Volt AC.

I would imagine at 120 volts AC the ratings would be different.

[ELA]

Thanks for the info on that relay Brian. That does look to be fairly robust.

My concern is for the Smarthome unit that only states "For resistive loads only". While it may be ok for motor loads it would be nice if they stated that.

 

Here is a link to the relay you mention:

http://catalogue.dblectro.com/products/687-RELAYS/26-Electromechanic/689-NT90-DBL___NT90.pdf

 

The ratings vary depending upon how you want to use it.

 

You usually see contactors used when switching heavy inductive loads and motors.

[midrar]

Have you looked and verified the exact amp draw of the dishwasher (it should be labeled on the dishwasher or you can look it up online with the model #). From my experience, most dishwashers are installed on a seperate 15 amp circuit while only using 8-11 amps.

 

If indeed you do require a 20 amp circuit, you can buy an inexpensive 20 amp contactor & use a standard insteon relay switchlinc to control when the relay comes on/off.

[Brian H]

A contactor and an ApplianceLinc turning it on and off sounds good.

 

Just one thing to remember is the new HW 4.15 and 4.2 ApplianceLincs default to off after a power failure and not the state they where in at power loss time. Maybe a safer thing to happen. Just you have to make sure default off didn't leave your dishes half washed.

[oskrypuch]

you can buy an inexpensive 20 amp contactor & use a standard insteon relay switchlinc to control when the relay comes on/off.

 

midrar, that is actually a very good idea.

 

Brian - a good heads up, I do have some program logic (driven by a time delay relay) that will detect and correct critical insteon units/relays after a power loss. The ISY itself has a UPS to keep it alive.

 

* Orest

[apostolakisl]

I totally concur with using a properly rated relay. I would suggest a double throw relay and hook the dishwasher up to the NC side. In this way powering the relay will disconnect the appliance. Since the relay will spend 99.9999% of its life with the appliance powered, you probably don't want the coil constantly energized. You can use an Insteon lamplinc or appliancelinc to power the coil.

 

I have water protection in my house but have hard wired everything. Insteon almost always works, but I prefer the higher reliability of hard wired for my security and water protection.

[oskrypuch]

Since the relay will spend 99.9999% of its life with the appliance powered, you probably don't want the coil constantly energized.

 

Actually, in more critical applications, it would be better to run it electrically NO. Otherwise, if the relay should fail, you wouldn't know until you actually needed it.

 

I set up my water shutoff valve along the same way, the main supply solenoid/valve is normally flow closed, it needs to be powered to allow flow.

 

Odd about the terminology, that an electrical NO = a plumbing NC.

 

* Orest

[Brian H]

Same thing for security systems.

In my electronic training a magnetic switch that is NO means it is open when no magnet is next to it. In a security system it is for a NC type system where the switch is closed for normal operation.

[apostolakisl]

Since the relay will spend 99.9999% of its life with the appliance powered, you probably don't want the coil constantly energized.

 

Actually, in more critical applications, it would be better to run it electrically NO. Otherwise, if the relay should fail, you wouldn't know until you actually needed it.

 

I set up my water shutoff valve along the same way, the main supply solenoid/valve is normally flow closed, it needs to be powered to allow flow.

 

Odd about the terminology, that an electrical NO = a plumbing NC.

 

* Orest

 

True, but by leaving a relay energized all the time you are inviting it to fail and then you will be stuck without a dishwasher until you get around to fixing it. When the only down side is the water that is in the machine getting pumped to the floor, it wouldn't be the end of the world if it failed.

 

The whole house water valve would be another story.

 

With a water valve you should use one of the actuated models, not a solonoid model. The elk WSV for example. I do have the relay the signals the actuator in the energized position when open, which means a failure of the relay would close the water valve. But that doesn't protect you from a failure of the actuator. I have my Elk WSV shut the house off 30 minutes after the system arms away so it gets operated several times per day. I can see and hear it actuate as I drive the car into the garage upon returning.

[oskrypuch]

Well, it is pretty easy to short the wires around the relay, or even wire in a breaker to provide a bypass in the event of relay failure. Don't think either approach is wrong, depends on priorities.

 

A bit of a story ....

 

Just recently, our main floor clothes washer dumped its entire load of water, from all of its cycles, on the floor. The water moved to the wall along a built-in raised floor area (raises the washer to chest level), ran down the drywall at the back to the lower level, where it took out a dozen dropped ceiling tiles, which then rained down on the carpet and furniture. It was a big mess, not a disaster, but a real nuisance. After cleaning up, I am now running fans all over to try to dry everything out, and debating whether I should chop into the drywall to check the in-wall state.

 

The above, is the reason I want to kill that pump!

 

BTW, I was just about to install a water sensor in that location, frustratingly it was still in the box on top of the washer. Without a pump kill it would not have stopped the water, but at least would have warned my wife to run up and shut the darn thing off.

 

 

Also, I spoke generically when I said solenoid, thanks for correcting. As you say, what I indeed have is a gear driven, slow open/slow close, non-restricting valve that my plumber recommended. I was rather surprised at how expensive it was.

 

We also kill the water when we are away for any period of time, by setting away mode.

 

* Orest

[apostolakisl]

Sorry to hear about your mess. I have a bunch of water sensors installed but haven't got around to doing all of them yet. I also have a whole house surge supressor sitting in a box waiting to get installed on my second breaker box. I keep thinking I better get to it or I'll be sorry!

 

Even if you had the water sensor in place without the kill switch on the machine but it at least shut off the whole house water, it would have cut the water spillage down to just one cycle instead of three (or however many your maching is set for).

 

And yes, I feel your pain on how pricey those water valves are. I think I spent like $300 on mine. However, I do know of multiple people who have suffered extensive water damage which makes $300 seem like nothing.