Wiring question

[jwelton2]

I started to install a KPL and ToggleLinc on a 3-way for my garage overhead lights this afternoon. When I took the existing switch out, I found the white neutral wire was switched (with red traveler) and the blacks were tied together. I have about a dozen hard wired ToggleLincs and KPLs and this is the first time I've had a problem with wiring.

 

Any thoughts? I want to put the KPL in the garage switch so I can also control outside spots and a bench lite.

 

Thanks, John

[apostolakisl]

It is hard to know without seeing it. But, I would tackle this way.

 

1) Turn off the breaker.

2) Disconnect all wires at both switches (except bare grounds) and the fixture, make certain none of the bare wire ends are touching anything.

3) Turn the breaker back on.

4) Test with a volt meter each wire against the bare ground for 120v. There should be only one total between the three boxes. Cap it.

5) Turn the breaker off.

6) Put one lead of your ohm meter on the bare ground, test each of the other wires for continuity (zero or nearly zero ohms). You should have just one and it should be in the same box as the hot and should be in the same jacket as the hot. Label it neutral.

7) Now test the other wires for continuity between the three boxes. One at a time, connect the remaining wires to ground in one box, then go to the other box and test each wire for continuity to ground. Label the wires A, B, C etc at both ends.

 

Now you know what wires are what.

 

Connect your wires such that you can get a neutral at all three locations and a hot at both switch boxes. Find a third wire between either of the boxes and the fixture to carry your switched hot (load). Always use a white for neutral, a black or red for a hot if possible. If not, use colored tape to redesignate the wires.

[Brian H]

If the original switch didn't have a on indicator in it. The white is not neutral. It is part of a three way switch setup.

The tests apostolakisil outlined should help in determining the next step.

 

If it is in a three way setup. Both switches have to be changed to an Insteon enabled device. You can't keep one original mechanical switch. Though you could wire around one. As I have done with a switch that was never used.

[oberkc]

apostolakisl' method is, in my mind, the best way to go about figuring your wiring out, because it helps one better understand wiring concepts. Keep in mind that three-way wiring with conventional switches has multiples ways in which it may be accomplished. One of the variables is where power is first introduced into a circuit: fixture, or one of the two switch boxes. You will need to identify where power is first introduced for this for this installation.

 

One clue that is often helpful is the color of screws on the switches, themselves. A three-way switch includes a common and two travelers. The common screw is often differentiated by being a different color, ususally black or brass from my experience. Wires connected to these screws are the "common", which gives an important clue about what wires go where. While this may sound stupid, it is also important to confirm whether your lights originally worked properly (I have found it not unusual to find mis-wired three-ways.)

 

Go to your favorite search engine and find a wire diagram for various three-way installations. Understand the basic concept and variations. I suspect you will find it possible to match up your wiring to one of the variations.

 

Having said all that, feel free to describe your wiring here. There are many who can help. Describe each cable coming into each box, and each color conductor in each cable. For example one box might have two cables, one with black and white, the other with black, white, and red conductors. The other box might have one cable, with black, white, and red conductors. You may ignore ground (bare, or green). If your boxes have more than one switch, it is often necessary to describe some of their wiring, to the degree that the wiring is shared between devices.

 

And...don't take your old switches out without taking notes about how they were wired.

[jwelton2]

Thanks guys, looking forward to some quality homeautomation time tomorrow.

 

John

[jwelton2]

Following up (and thanks again for the post)

 

Note: this is switching a florescent overhead light

 

Two switches Garage (GAR) and Laundry (LAND)

 

For GAR:

Wire 1: Black | White

White is hot against ground and this is the main feed

Black does NOT have continuity with the bare ground wire??

 

Second wire goes to the laundry

For LAND:

White and Red are switched and match the switch in the garage (the hot white being the one switched)

Black returns to the garage box and it in the same wire nut as the black from the main feed wire.

 

I'm mostly worried about the black which appears to be the neutral but is not showing ground on the ohm meter.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

John

 

 

 

 

It is hard to know without seeing it. But, I would tackle this way. . .

[apostolakisl]

Did you forget to unhook all the wires at the fixture as well (the ceiling where the light is)?

 

It would be very very unlikely that your main hot feed into the system is a white wire.

 

I think your power is probably entering the system at the fixture.

 

You need to unhook all the wires at all three locations and test them at all locations.

[jwelton2]

OK that's making more sense to me now. . . glad it's a nice day here in FL to be crawling around in the attic.

 

John

[apostolakisl]

OK that's making more sense to me now. . . glad it's a nice day here in FL to be crawling around in the attic.

 

John

 

You shouldn't need to go into the attic. You will probably need to drop the flourescent light fixture however. Certainly you can unhook the two leads going directly to the lamp by just taking the lens off, but there are probably other wires spliced in there that require taking the entire fixture down.

 

It is probably just held up there by 2 or 4 screws.

[oberkc]

I would not bother removing the fixture. This is a standard three-way switch loop with power supplied at the fixture. Unfortunately, you will require an inlinelinc to make this work with existing wiring (switch boxes are single gang, correct?). Alternatively, you can add a conductor between fixture and switch (either one).

 

White is correctly connected to black in fixtre box (should be remarked black, typically with tape or marker) and is hot. Black between fixture and switch is switched power to fixture. There is no neutral in the switch boxes.

[apostolakisl]

I would not bother removing the fixture. This is a standard three-way switch loop with power supplied at the fixture. Unfortunately, you will require an inlinelinc to make this work with existing wiring (switch boxes are single gang, correct?). Alternatively, you can add a conductor between fixture and switch (either one).

 

White is correctly connected to black in fixtre box (should be remarked black, typically with tape or marker) and is hot. Black between fixture and switch is switched power to fixture. There is no neutral in the switch boxes.

 

Yeah, probably you have this:

 

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/infor ... ption2.htm

 

Since there are only two wires from the fixture box to the first switch box, there is no way to take hot, neutral, and load wire to the switch.

 

Either an inline linc, or if you can go into the attic and get access to the top plate over the wall with one of the switches, you can drop some romex from above and get another wire.

 

Edit: But, you still have to drop the light. You would probably want to try to put the inline linc in the box if at all possible, or you would need to get to the box to pull another wire.

[jwelton2]

I'm pretty sure the URL is what I have. To make matters even more challenging, I was all set to wire up two overhead hall lites, both on 3-way switches, and again, it appears to be wired the same as the URL. And the kitchen nook lite also on 3-way is the same as well. Not a very productive Saturday. I don't like the idea of a inline switch for all 4 lights, then I'd have to do something with 8 switches??

 

I may just declare diy defeat and call in an electrician and rewire so I can use the Insteon switches.

 

At least I got the garage bench lite wired on a togglelinc

 

John

[apostolakisl]

I'm pretty sure the URL is what I have. To make matters even more challenging, I was all set to wire up two overhead hall lites, both on 3-way switches, and again, it appears to be wired the same as the URL. And the kitchen nook lite also on 3-way is the same as well. Not a very productive Saturday. I don't like the idea of a inline switch for all 4 lights, then I'd have to do something with 8 switches??

 

I may just declare diy defeat and call in an electrician and rewire so I can use the Insteon switches.

 

At least I got the garage bench lite wired on a togglelinc

 

John

 

If you have attic space over the top plates it is a doable project. If not, it will be spaaansive (expensive). Tends to require cutting out drywall and stuff.

 

Thought for you. Do you have a regular outlet near either of the switch boxes? Like in the same stud cavity. You can jumper a Romex between it and your switch box for your hot/neutral.

[oberkc]

Not a very productive Saturday.

 

I understand. Very frustrating.

 

I may just declare diy defeat and call in an electrician and rewire so I can use the Insteon switches.

 

All you will need is an extra wire between fixture and switch(es). I don't see this as especially DIY unfriendly. Of course, I have not seen your house. Fortunately, the experts who publish the NEC have made a change that would make your wiring scheme obsolete in new, and modified, houses and more favorable to smart switches. Unfortunately, that does not help you.

 

But, you still have to drop the light.

 

I agree, but only when it comes time to make a change. There is no need to drop the light just to confirm your wiring.

 

Do you have a regular outlet near either of the switch boxes?

 

Outstanding question!

[jwelton2]

If you have attic space over the top plates it is a doable project. If not, it will be spaaansive (expensive). Tends to require cutting out drywall and stuff.

Yes, single story house on a slab with direct access to all parts of the house from the attic that will require rewiring. I did look at the kitchen nook light box from the attic and it had 4 wires in/out, I can account for the 2 switches but the other 2 ran off under the insulation to other parts of the house. Not something I really wanted to deal with today. It's a time/money issue, I had until today to finish out the main project. Actually did well with abt a dozen switches wired and working well and 3 plugins.

 

Thought for you. Do you have a regular outlet near either of the switch boxes? Like in the same stud cavity. You can jumper a Romex between it and your switch box for your hot/neutral.

Great idea, unfortunatly no local outlet on the same stud

 

I appreciate all the help today, just putting my feet up this evening with a glass of bubbly and enjoying the low ambient light scene I crafted in the family room

 

John

[apostolakisl]

Not a very productive Saturday.

 

But, you still have to drop the light.

 

I agree, but only when it comes time to make a change. There is no need to drop the light just to confirm your wiring.

 

 

Ahhhh, but you forget what Confuscious say, "light fixture dangling from ceiling make wife kick but to get done"

[apostolakisl]

If you have attic space over the top plates it is a doable project. If not, it will be spaaansive (expensive). Tends to require cutting out drywall and stuff.

Yes, single story house on a slab with direct access to all parts of the house from the attic that will require rewiring. I did look at the kitchen nook light box from the attic and it had 4 wires in/out, I can account for the 2 switches but the other 2 ran off under the insulation to other parts of the house. Not something I really wanted to deal with today. It's a time/money issue, I had until today to finish out the main project. Actually did well with abt a dozen switches wired and working well and 3 plugins.

 

Thought for you. Do you have a regular outlet near either of the switch boxes? Like in the same stud cavity. You can jumper a Romex between it and your switch box for your hot/neutral.

Great idea, unfortunatly no local outlet on the same stud

 

I appreciate all the help today, just putting my feet up this evening with a glass of bubbly and enjoying the low ambient light scene I crafted in the family room

 

John

 

Actually this may be pretty easy. The traveler wire between the two switches probably goes up the wall into the attic. Just cut that wire in the attic, install a box in the attic and rewire things up there. No need to go down the wall at all. You will only need to pull one wire between your new box in the attic and your ceiling box to make it work.