stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Hello, recently purchased/installed upwards of 35 insteon devices in my home, along with ISY 99i. Just started writing increasingly complicated programs. Current situation is a keypad near garage entry into home. I want button "C" to use for taking out the garbage. When I press C, I want my front coach lights and side light near garbage cans to turn on full brightness, wait 8 mins and then: 1.) If it's between sunset and 11pm, I have another program for the front coach lights only to run at half brightness. So between these times, if the "C" button on KPL is pressed to turn off the lights or if nothing is pressed and 8 mins passes, then during sunset - 11pm timeframe, the coach lights would revert back to 50% brightness and side light near garbage cans turns off completely. 2.) If it's any time after 11pm, then the both front coach lights AND side light near garbage cans both go off if manually done within 8 mins by pressing the KPL "C" button to off or if 8 mins passes on its own. If From Sunset To Sunrise And Control "Main hallway Keypad C" is switched on Then Set Scene "Garbage Night" On Wait 8 mins Run program "Landscape Lights" (Else Path) Else -No actions- My "Landscape Lights" program basically has the front landscape lights on AND front coach lights at half-brightness between sunset and 11pm, otherwise they're off. This is why I linked to that program's else section which says to just turn those lights all off. So the program works to turn on when "C" is pressed, but the lights never shut off (this was tested past 11pm, so I expected all the lights to shut completely off after 8 mins as per running the Landscape Lights program Else path. What am I missing? Thanks in advance.
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Add (next day) to Sunrise. The time range does not cover the time period desired. Without (next day) it is Sunrise of the same day which is before Sunset. If From Sunset To Sunrise (next day) And Control 'ICON Dimmer 1' is switched On
oberkc Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 I suspect you have several potential problems going on here. So the program works to turn on when "C" is pressed For the reason pointed out by LeeG, this program will never evaluate as true, which suggests that the lights came on for a reason other than the program working (under the program listing, I suspect you will see a status of "false"). Is button C part of any scene as controller? If it's between sunset and 11pm, I have another program for the front coach lights only to run at half brightness. So between these times, if the "C" button on KPL is pressed to turn off the lights or if nothing is pressed and 8 mins passes, then during sunset - 11pm timeframe, the coach lights would revert back to 50% brightness and side light near garbage cans turns off completely. I assume your other program has the sunset-to-11pm condition, correct? Does the else path of this program turn the landscape lights off? If so, then I see nothing in this first program that would distinguish between the pre- and post- 11pm time frames when the 8-minute wait period expires. As written (and given these assumptions), I would expect the landscape lights to ALWAYS turn OFF after 8 minutes, whether before or after 11pm. So...in addition to LeeGs suggestion, I would suggest that your first program might be better as: If From Sunset To Sunrise And Control "Main hallway Keypad C" is switched on Then Set Scene "Garbage Night" On Wait 8 mins Run program "Landscape Lights" (If Path) << Else -No actions- A third potential problem is what happens if you decide to take out the trash less than 8 minutes before sunrise. While this may not be a practical problem, if it ever happens, the 8 minute wait period would be interrupted, the program would turn false, and the lights would never turn off.
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 oberkc Put a (next day) on Sunrise in the last code example
apostolakisl Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 A third potential problem is what happens if you decide to take out the trash less than 8 minutes before sunrise. While this may not be a practical problem, if it ever happens, the 8 minute wait period would be interrupted, the program would turn false, and the lights would never turn off. Solve this by splitting the program in 2. And of course keep the change that runs the "if path" not the "else path" as indicated. If From Sunset To Sunrise !!!!! NEXT DAY !!!!!! And Control "Main hallway Keypad C" is switched on Then Run program 2 'then path' Else -No actions- If no action Then Set Scene "Garbage Night" On Wait 8 mins Run program "Landscape Lights" (If Path) << Else no action In program 2, if you wanted to purposefully interupt it (allow the lights to stay on), you can always add something to the "if" clause that would evaluate false. Alternatively, you could put the stuff in the "else" section and put something in the "if" section that evaluates to true.
oberkc Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 oberkc Put a (next day) on Sunrise in the last code example Indeed I should have included this change.
apostolakisl Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 oberkc Put a (next day) on Sunrise in the last code example Indeed I should have included this change. Yes, that to, I edited my above post.
stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Posted January 8, 2012 Your replies are MUCH appreciated, glad to find solid support on this forum. Can't believe I totally didn't realize the "next day" thing, thanks for correcting that. Is button C part of any scene as controller? Yes, I have a scene set up with the front coach lights and side lights near the garbage cans. I have KPL button C as the controller for that scene. It is not a controller to anything else. A third potential problem is what happens if you decide to take out the trash less than 8 minutes before sunrise. While this may not be a practical problem, if it ever happens, the 8 minute wait period would be interrupted, the program would turn false, and the lights would never turn off. Yes, thanks for catching this also. While I do not expect to be taking out the garbage that late (!!!), I did already create a program (which needs work also, but I will try figuring it out on my own first) to, during the daylight hours, automatically turn OFF ANY outdoor light no matter what. I have to link this and my other outdoor light programs to that program to ensure things aren't left on. If none of this works, I will try to split it into 2 programs as suggested. ...waiting for dark to try these out, thanks again.
oberkc Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Yes, I have a scene set up with the front coach lights and side lights near the garbage cans. I have KPL button C as the controller for that scene. It is not a controller to anything else. This, I suspect, is why your lights come on, rather than your program ever working. The question that you may need to resolve is the difference between this scene, and the one called "Garbage Night". When you press keypad button C, it will initiate the scene for which it is a controller. The program would also immediately initiate another (or is it the same) scene. This seems like a recipe for complications.
stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry, I wasn't clear about this before, but the only scene KPL button C controls is the "Garbage Night" scene which contains the coach lights and side light. Since it's day time, I'm trying to figure out the program I mentioned above to have any outdoor light automatically switched off. The program is pasted below, but my issue is that regardless of what my program says, my ISY does not update the status of the light I'm testing unless I manually query the light. Once I manually query the light, then the program recognizes the light is on and shuts it off based on my program settings. Is this a communication issue or a drawback to the ISY? If From Sunrise To Sunset Or Status 'Side Garage / Side Garage Door Light' is not switched Off Or Status 'Front Yard / Front Coach Lights' is not switched Off Or Status 'Front Yard / Front Landscape Light' is not switched Off Or Status 'Front Yard / Front Yard Holiday Lights' is not switched Off Or Status 'Backyard / Backyard Hut Lights' is not switched Off Or Status 'Backyard / Backyard Fan Lights' is not switched Off Or Status 'Backyard / Backyard Fan Lights' is not switched Off Then Set 'Side Garage / Side Garage Door Light' Off Set 'Front Yard / Front Coach Lights' Off Set 'Front Yard / Front Landscape Light' Off Set 'Front Yard / Front Yard Holiday Lights' Off Set 'Backyard / Backyard Hut Lights' Off Set 'Backyard / Backyard Fan Lights' Off Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 It is either a communication problem or the link records in the light switch or PLM have been lost or are corrupted. Manually changing the state of a device should be reflected to the ISY. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table against the switch that is not showing manual state changes. When the display is complete click the Compare button. If no mismatches try doing a Restore Device. If manual changes are still not being reflected back then communication problems are likely.
apostolakisl Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 A suggestion, Put all of the switches that control outdoor lights in one scene as responders. Call it "outdoor lights". Instead of listing each light in your "then" clause above, you just list the scene. This will decrease traffic and increase probability of proper execution. Also, it might be nice to then have a kpl button in your house that you set as a controller for that scene, so if you wanted to have all the outdoor lights turned on (hear something suspicious), you can just hit one button. I have a button next to my bed that does that. Also, you can use that same button to turn them all off. And you need to figure out why your ISY isn't getting updated. Probably it is an issue with links as mentioned. If the links are wrong, just right click and hit "restore device" and that rewrites them.
stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Posted January 8, 2012 ok, I made an "outside lights" scene as suggested (and did the bedside controlinc for myself and the wife, thanks for that one also)...now, I also tried to compare and restore the links for the switches that don't automatically update in ISY when toggled on/off. Comparing showed one extra link for my coach light, and then I did restore device. When I re-tried toggling on/off it still doesn't update. Then I added the coach light switch to it's own scene. Without adding this scene to the program for auto off, it DOES now work. Why is this the case? Some switches work on their own, others are not working. Thanks.
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Sounds like the PLM lost the link records. Next step is to run Restore Modem (PLM). It can take some time and there should be no Insteon traffic while it is running. The alternative is to delete the device and add it back to reestablish the link records.
stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Posted January 8, 2012 I think you're right. Last week when attempting to relocate my PLM/ISY to another location, I used an awkward multitap to plug it back into its current location and I believe the "SET"button on the PLM had been pressed and possibly reverted back to factory settings (no longer have it plugged into that). It was subsequent to that when none of my ISY commands wouldn't do anything and I went back and re-did each scene. However, since that time, I have various 3-way switches and a 6-way switch that are frequently out of sync. Now that I realize statuses for devices should be updated instantly and that's not happening on my network, I need to re-establish things. Problem is, I deleted the devices from a bunch of those scenes and then re-did them again after the "SET" button fiasco. Do I now have open (dead) links that are still carried along from the previous linking? I have a lot of programs and scenes set up now in the ISY, I do regular backups but I'm hoping I don't just re-instate those dead links if I were to clean everything off and restore the backup. How should I go about doing this?
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Did you run Restore Modem (PLM)? If not do that next. If Restore Device and Restore Modem (PLM) does not resolve the situation the only thing I know to do is delete the device from the ISY and add it back. A Restore Modem (PLM) may have resolved it if done immediately after the PLM was reset. Now that devices have been removed and added back to Scenes I don't know what state the system is in.
stillen_i30 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Posted January 8, 2012 Ok I did the restore PLM and it only worked for some devices. I am realizing I still have many devices that are not updating in the ISY when toggled while some of the others are. This is happening on with devices on the same phase also. After restoring PLM, I did delete one device (that is not a member of many scenes) and re-added it back. It did update instantly (which fixed the problem). Rather than renaming it back to it's original and manually adding it back to all the scenes (from my own memory, albiet only a few scenes for this particular device), I instead restored a backup I created just prior to deleting the device. Now, none of my devices show statuses and many of them do not respond to ISY commands. This is a replay of what happened when my PLM inadvertently reset when plugging in. Only some devices respond but very slowly, and I'm now getting riddled with error messages such as "Failed" or "Cannot access Errorlog" Kinda getting frustrated. It won't do anything when I try "restore PLM" or "restore all devices." I don't want to have to erase the ISY and add-back my numerous insteon devices and re-do all the scenes and programming from my own memory (because I thought that's what the ISY backup was all about)!
LeeG Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Restoring a backup restores the information in the ISY. The Restore ISY does not restore the physical PLM or any of the devices. Try another Restore Modem (PLM) using the backup information. I'm still concerned that the Scene changes may have made changes to the device that are now not in sync with the backup. It may be necessary to Restore Device some of the devices as well.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Hello stillen_i30, Please do contact our support team (links below) and we'll schedule a call to help you out. With kind regards, Michel
apostolakisl Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Michelle will get you out of this. But realize that when you restored a backup of your isy that the any links you created since then would not be known to the isy but would still exist on the devices and plm. And you had a plm which sound like it got erased and then had some links added in. You've now got a hodge podge of devices in various states of linkage and none of it on the same page. I suspect that you may find it easiest to factory reset every single device and then have ISY re-write all links to all devices and the plm. This will for sure put everything back on the same page. Realize that the ISY does know every single link for all devices and the plm and can re-write all of that. But let Michelle guide you through.
stillen_i30 Posted January 9, 2012 Author Posted January 9, 2012 Ok so I painstakingly used the whole day to delete each device, manually copy down all the properties of each one, and then re-added them back to the ISY. For the most part almost every device instantaneously updates in ISY when controlled manually. Some things I'm still not sure about and maybe you guys can tell me if this is by design: 1.) ISY status does NOT change when my ICON dimmer and on/off plug-in modules' "set" button is toggled (toggling the on/off status manually). Some of the modules behave differently also, some will flash the lights on then off quickly, other modules do stay on. Weird, seeing they're all the same version. 2.) I have a 6-way switch (5 switches controlling one set of hallway lights). All switches report status correctly when manually toggled and/or dimmed. When I adjust any of the switches NOT directly connected to the load via the ISY, the statuses all get messed up each one varying from the other. The same is true with my 3-way switches. I imagine this is by design. After doing all this, I saved the backup again. I'm afraid that if I were to ever restore the backup the same problem would happen again. Am I supposed to delete the PLM and re-add the PLM again BEFORE restoring ISY with the backup file? Or do I factory reset the PLM, delete, then restore PLM before restoring ISY? Thanks again, I hope this doesn't happen again!
Brian H Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 #1. Tapping the set button on Icon dimmer modules. Sets the local On level. That would be the brief flash letting you know the new level was accepted. http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?tit ... e_On-Level You should not use the set button to try and toggle them On and Off. They also don't report back to the ISY console if you do manage to turn them On or Off. Appliance types like the Icon On/Off may locally toggle On and Off with the set button, but again will not send an update to the ISY. If you don't have the Full Users Manuals for your modules. There is a link on each models sales page for them or the Smarthome wiki has a set of links also. http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?tit ... 7s_Manuals
LeeG Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 NEVER DELETE THE PLM!!! That would remove all references to the PLM from all devices. Multi-way switch configurations stay in sync because they are all cross-linked to each other. All one big ISY Scene with multiple Controllers. If you want them to stay in sync while being controlled from the ISY use the Scene name that created the multi-way configuration. Turning On/Off an individual device will certainly get things out of sync as individual device control with Insteon Direct commands are NOT propagated to any other device. This is Insteon design. Things got out of hand with the ISY Restore because Scene changes were made after the backup was taken. These changes were rolled out to the devices in the form of changes to the link records in the PLM and the individual devices. Unfortunately none of those changes were reflected in the backup file. When the backup file was restored now the information in the ISY was way out of sync with the information in the devices and the PLM. As I mentioned before, Restore ISY restores the information in the ISY. It does not restore information in the PLM or individual devices. The correct sequence is to take a backup after changes to the system such as Scene changes and/or Program changes have been made. That way the ISY information backup matches the latest PLM and device information. Restoring a backup that was taken before Scene changes are made insures the system is out of sync if the backup is restored. Taking a backup after the system was put back in sync is the absolute correct thing to do. Now should something happen to the information in the ISY itself a Restore ISY would bring the ISY back to the level of information that matches what is in the devices and the PLM. Just remember to take a fresh backup after any significant changes to Scene and Programs. Just so it is not forgotten, NEVER DELETE THE PLM. This is meant for contractors who have used an ISY/PLM to configure an Insteon installation and are not leaving the ISY and PLM as part of the install. All references to the PLM have to be removed so the PLM can be removed. This is never the case for a normal end user. I think this started when the PLM was accidentally factory reset during its relocation. This erased all the link information in the PLM link database. All Scene control from the ISY is gone and no device state changes are reflected in the ISY when the PLM link database is erased. The correct procedure is to do a Restore Modem (PLM) function at that point. All the Scene work after the PLM reset to try and get things functional again was just making things worse 'if' an ISY backup taken before that work was ever restored. Brian covered the local control of ApplianceLincs etc. These changes are not reflected back to the ISY because these devices are Responders ONLY. They have no capability to send local state changes to the PLM. Bottom line it sounds like things are back to normal and a good current ISY backup exists. Just stay away from the PLM Set button.
apostolakisl Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 Ok so I painstakingly used the whole day to delete each device, manually copy down all the properties of each one, and then re-added them back to the ISY. For the most part almost every device instantaneously updates in ISY when controlled manually. Some things I'm still not sure about and maybe you guys can tell me if this is by design: 1.) ISY status does NOT change when my ICON dimmer and on/off plug-in modules' "set" button is toggled (toggling the on/off status manually). Some of the modules behave differently also, some will flash the lights on then off quickly, other modules do stay on. Weird, seeing they're all the same version. 2.) I have a 6-way switch (5 switches controlling one set of hallway lights). All switches report status correctly when manually toggled and/or dimmed. When I adjust any of the switches NOT directly connected to the load via the ISY, the statuses all get messed up each one varying from the other. The same is true with my 3-way switches. I imagine this is by design. After doing all this, I saved the backup again. I'm afraid that if I were to ever restore the backup the same problem would happen again. Am I supposed to delete the PLM and re-add the PLM again BEFORE restoring ISY with the backup file? Or do I factory reset the PLM, delete, then restore PLM before restoring ISY? Thanks again, I hope this doesn't happen again! To point 2. It was already covered but I'll add a little. Keep in mind that devices are set as controllers and/or responders. When you have a virtual multiway, all those devices are controllers for all the other devices (meaning that all devices controll each other and respond to each other). So PHYSICALLY acting on any of those devices (by that I mean actually touching it) propogates through to all of them. HOWEVER, if one of those devices is acted upon by the ISY or some other switch not in the scene, it will behave ONLY as a responder, none of the other switches in that virtual multiway will change. Only a switch that is PHYSICALLY acted upon will control another switch. This is how one switch can respond to multiple scenes where perhaps the other switches are not intended to be changed. So, to have all the switches in a multi-way act in sync, you must program the SCENE to change, not just one device. I hope you now have your items in order. I think you did some extra work there manually rebuilding all your scnes. It would have been easier to simply set the system to restore all devices/plm and then go out to dinner and a movie, but oh well. In the future try not to factory reset your plm by accident But if you do, be sure to restore the plm, not restore an old backup of ISY.
Brian H Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 LeeG, There is a quirk in my older V2.0 LampLincs and V1.3 ApplinaceLincs. Firmware v.28. Along with my V4.1 ApplianceLincs Firmware v.32. If you add an X10 Primary Address to them with Local Control Enabled. When you use the lamps local switch to trigger them On. It sends an X10 On to the Address it was set to.
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