Zick Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Ok, I am at a total loss here. I had one keypadlinc P2486DWH8 V5.0 start shorting out. It was making a strange arcing sound and all the keypad lights would turn on and off constantly. I could not communicate w/ it and a factory reset didn't do anything. Alright, I figured I had one go bad no big deal. So in the mean time I decided to move one of my other keypadlincs (also P2486DWH8 V5.0) from another location (had been working fine right before disconnecting) and put in place of the bad one. As soon as I connected the good keypadlinc up, that one also starting doing the exact same thing! Had anyone seem this before and why might it be happening? I checked the voltage and it was 124V and I also have two other 2476D Switchlincs connected in the same spot (3 gang box) on the same circuit and those are both working fine. I've connected the bad keypadlincs up to an extension cord and tried plugging them into different outlets w/ the same shorting effect happening. Here is a video, sorry for the poor quality (camera phone). If you use headphones you can hear it clicking, but you can't seem to hear the arcing sound in the video. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v359/ ... EO0004.mp4
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 What is/was the KeypadLInc dimmer connected to? Sounds like the load took out both KeypadLincs.
Zick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 It's not actually connected to any load, just line voltage is all. I've got kind of an unusual setup. All of the wall switches are just connected to line voltage, no loads. I have another set of switches housed in a cabinet in a mechanical room that all the load wires run to. The switches in the mech room basically act as relays. I just program the wall switches to turn on a switch(s) in the mech room that is connected to the load I'm trying to power on.
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 First guess would be the neutral and load powering that KeypadLinc do not belong to each other.
Zick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 First guess would be the neutral and load powering that KeypadLinc do not belong to each other. Sorry can you expand on that a little more, not sure what you mean exactly?
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 For each circuit breaker there is a White (neutral) and Black (Line). Only Whites for the same circuit breaker should ever be tied together. I would check that the wires the KeypadLinc are connected to actually belong to the same circuit breaker. I’m guessing the White and Black the KeypadLinc is connected to do not belong to the same circuit breaker circuit.
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Also Line (Black) feeds from different circuit breakers should not share the same neutral (White).
Zick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 Ok, that I understood. Our entire house was done in conduit and pretty much everything was a home run back to the mech room. There are only the two wires coming into that box (Yellow(hot) & White(Neutral)), except for a passing pair of yellow wires going to our doorbell. The neutral & hot wire should be a direct line to the panels and nothing else should be tied into it. Now I'm no electrician but doesn’t all white wires get tied together in the panel on the neutral bus bar?
gatchel Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Ok, that I understood. Now I'm no electrician but doesn’t all white wires get tied together in the panel on the neutral bus bar? Typically yes. Unless the white has been re-purposed as a hot wire and it goes to a breaker. It should be marked with tape somehow. Since you said that it's all in conduit I don't see this being done, but anything is possible. Essentially it sounds like these switches are just controllers of sorts with no load. What voltage are you getting between the white and yellow wires? If there is no load and you properly capped the load wires from the switches then its bad switches or you have some sort of voltage issue that's burning them up.
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Yes they do. There is a difference in load balance being tied together at the power panel versus being tied together in the box. Since there is no load involved and two KeypadLincs have been damaged it has to be source power related.
Zick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 Gatchel, no the white wire is purely neutral. I get between 123-124 volts when reading both the yellow and white. Lee, if this was a power source issue why wouldn't the other two switches be effected? Plus these have been in place for over 2 years.
gatchel Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Yes they do. There is a difference in load balance being tied together at the power panel versus being tied together in the box. Since there is no load involved and two KeypadLincs have been damaged it has to be source power related. Or there is a problem with them out of the box...let's not eliminate other possibilities just yet. Smarthome has a less than perfect production rating A voltage measurement would be the next logical step, maybe while measuring voltage turn on and off some 240v appliances like a dryer.
gatchel Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Gatchel, no the white wire is purely neutral. I get between 123-124 volts when reading both the yellow and white. Lee, if this was a power source issue why wouldn't the other two switches be effected? Plus these have been in place for over 2 years. I'd check the power in your house on different circuits to make sure it is stable and there isn't an issue with your neutral on your incoming feed. Have you had any lights getting brighter randomly or any light bulbs burning out more often than usual? If not then you are probably good. I'd RMA them if they are still under warranty. If they aren't under warranty I'd call them anyway...
LeeG Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Install another KeypadLinc at that location. Just kidding. I'm pretty sure that would be damaged as well. If the basic wiring is correct then you are looking for a connection problem. Normally a connection problem will just cause a loss of power rather than damaging of device. That is why I tend to think there is an underlying wiring issue.
gatchel Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 I did a search over on smarthome.com/forums for "keypadlinc problem" (No quotes) your issue may not be the only one: http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9388 I'd do some more research and if you plan on RMA'ing the switches DON'T take them apart. ...maybe the buzzing noise you are hearing is something arcing inside the switch. Anything is possible...
gatchel Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 Install another KeypadLinc at that location. Just kidding. I'm pretty sure that would be damaged as well. If the basic wiring is correct then you are looking for a connection problem. Normally a connection problem will just cause a loss of power rather than damaging of device. That is why I tend to think there is an underlying wiring issue. That is another good point. Maybe you can "very temporarily" retrofit in a "load" at the connection points where your KPL is wired in. A 60 watt incandescent lamp or other load will be sufficient to determine if there is a loose connection that won't allow the KPL to maintain power. If you can successfully power a lamp, there should be plenty of connection stability to power a KPL with no load. Taking a voltage measurement while the KPL or lamp load is connected will be the end of your troubleshooting. If you have good voltage under load then the switches are probably bad. (Disclaimer)If you are not comfortable with this get an electrician to help(Disclaimer) Just a thought.
Zick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Posted February 1, 2012 I have a make shift cord that I can put in different ends (outlets, sockets, etc), I will connect it up to the box with an incandescent bulb and see what happens. I won't get to try this until I get home from work thought. Thanks for the help so far guys!
Teken Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Zick, What type of load is the switch in the mechanical room controlling?? Is it indeed a dimmable load?? Teken . . .
Zick Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 Update; Not so good, might be something w/ the wiring or else I have more keypadlinc's failing.... I was able to track down all the wiring. The neutral wire was a direct line to the service panel and everything looked good there. I found some articles about testing the neutral line and how your suppose to have under 10 Ohm. I was getting ~3 Ohms. tested Hot to Neutral = 124.1 volts tested Hot to Ground = 124.1 volts tested Neutral to Ground = 0 volts This all looks good from what I can tell. I connected a 65 watt bulb to the circuit and had no problems lighting and the voltage reading w/ the load was 123.9 volts. Now here is where it starts to get weird. I found that the Hot wire is tied into about 6 other Hot wires before going to the breaker. Those other Hot wires go to other wall switches around the house (about 18 in total between Switchlincs and Keypadlincs). While locating the other switches on the same circuit, I found two other keypadlincs acting the exact same way but not as bad. But I was still able to control scenes with them. They would flicker on/off and make the same arcing sound. I tried moving the circuit to a different breaker but the problem was still happening. I disconnected the other Hot wires so that there was only one going to the breaker. I tried out the two previous bad keypadlincs that weren't working. The original keypadlinc still would not work. But the second one starting shorting out again as soon as I connected it but if I left it connected for a few minutes, it went back to normal and started working again. I was able to turn on/off lights with it. Even stranger... if I disconnect the keypadlinc and reconnect it, it will start the cycle all over again. It starts shorting out for a couple minutes but then goes normal.
Zick Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 Zick, What type of load is the switch in the mechanical room controlling?? Is it indeed a dimmable load?? Teken . . . That's just it, these wall switches don't go to any one particular switch in the mechanical room. They just have straight line voltage and I have to program them to whichever switch in the mech room I want to control. This keypadlinc was programmed to about 6 different Switchlincs in the mechinal room. Those controlled different circuits of lights that were mostly can lights and a track light. All are dimmable loads as well as the switchlincs.
LeeG Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 The White neutral wire is running to all the same locations as the Black Line (or was that yellow) is running to from the single breaker?
Zick Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 The White neutral wire is running to all the same locations as the Black Line (or was that yellow) is running to from the single breaker? Each wall switch has two wires consisting of a Yellow hot and White neutral pulled from the mechnical room. Each neutral wire go straight to the neutral bus bar in the service panel. But the Yellow hot wires that going into the mech room are tied together, then from that bunch is a singe wire that goes into the single breaker.
LeeG Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 A single Line (Yellow) from one breaker goes to multiple locations. These locations use different neutral runs back to the power panel.
Zick Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 A single Line (Yellow) from one breaker goes to multiple locations. These locations use different neutral runs back to the power panel. That would be correct.
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