Need Help Troubleshooting

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

At this point I think shutting off ISY for 24 hours is the best idea.

 

Questions:

Can Stargate control these devices?

Do you have any other controller?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

The attic lights went on again at 7:18 this morning (per the Stargate log) ISY did NOT reflect that they had turnrd on.

 

All of the attic lights turned on even though I had removed all but one of them from the scene. The ones removed are NOT part of any other scene. The keypadlinc button LED is NOT on.

 

Even though I did a factory reset on these switches, they are acting like they are still linked to each other somehow. This is an example of where I wish I had a way to query the local X10 address to confirm that there is not one set in these switches (or if there is, what address it is).

 

I may have to shut off the ISY for 24 hours to see if the switches still go on by themselves. I also had another pair of linked switches in another area turn on yesterday evening.

[upstatemike]

No, stargate should not be able to control these switches. It is X10 only and there should not be any X10 address in these switches at this point. (I need to find a tool that will let me confirm this as I have come to distrust the factory reset procedure).

 

There are no other Insteon controllers. PowerHome is disbled and the PLC is unplugged. I have not set up my touch screen yet so it is not a factor. My Elk panel is not yet installed.

 

I need the evening actions to work today so I will power the ISY off around 10PM and leave it off for 24 hours, or until I get an indication that the attic lights have turned on by themselves (whichever comes first).

[IndyMike]

upstatemike,

 

If you have a Controlinc or maxi controller you can cycle through the X10 Housecodes using All-on/All-off commands. I use this to check my Lamplincs when I move them around (verify no X10 address).

 

What type of communication are you using with your motion dectector? Rf only, or RF and transceived X10? I've had difficulties in the past using both RF and transceived (depending on the transceiver) when the detector is in a "high activity" area.

 

If unplugging the ISY doesn't show anything, consider disabling the motion sensor/transceiver.

 

IM

 

No, stargate should not be able to control these switches. It is X10 only and there should not be any X10 address in these switches at this point. (I need to find a tool that will let me confirm this as I have come to distrust the factory reset procedure).

 

There are no other Insteon controllers. PowerHome is disbled and the PLC is unplugged. I have not set up my touch screen yet so it is not a factor. My Elk panel is not yet installed.

 

I need the evening actions to work today so I will power the ISY off around 10PM and leave it off for 24 hours, or until I get an indication that the attic lights have turned on by themselves (whichever comes first).

[upstatemike]

Hardwired motion sensor connected to Stargate triggers an X10 ON from Stargate based on rules (time of day, is the light set to stay on and ignore motion, etc.)

 

I have tried to manually trigger the switches with X10 commands but have not been able to reproduce the problem. I do not think any X10 address is set in any of these devices, but only a peek at the switch's local settings can confirm that 100% (An invalid value in the X10 register could produce unpredictable results from general X10 traffic without responding consistently to any specific X10 command.)

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

There might also be a program in ISY which is doing something based on the SG's motion sensor. So, again, having ISY off for a 24 hour period is the best option at this point.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hardwired motion sensor connected to Stargate triggers an X10 ON from Stargate based on rules (time of day, is the light set to stay on and ignore motion, etc.)

 

I have tried to manually trigger the switches with X10 commands but have not been able to reproduce the problem. I do not think any X10 address is set in any of these devices, but only a peek at the switch's local settings can confirm that 100% (An invalid value in the X10 register could produce unpredictable results from general X10 traffic without responding consistently to any specific X10 command.)

[Algorithm]

Hardwired motion sensor connected to Stargate triggers an X10 ON from Stargate based on rules (time of day, is the light set to stay on and ignore motion, etc.)

 

I have tried to manually trigger the switches with X10 commands but have not been able to reproduce the problem. I do not think any X10 address is set in any of these devices, but only a peek at the switch's local settings can confirm that 100% (An invalid value in the X10 register could produce unpredictable results from general X10 traffic without responding consistently to any specific X10 command.)

 

Upstate, I agree that trying with ISY off for a period of time is a good next step.

 

But also, Indy's suggestions were very good ones. And yes, it does still sound like your switches are linked, either via Insteon or X-10. While I doubt that Insteon switches respond to X-10 'All Units On', they should certainly respond to 'All Lights On' as well as 'All Units Off' for the particular housecode.

 

Also, I agree with you that only being able to read the switch's memory can guarantee 100% that there is no code there. But, one thing you could do is pick some codes that will never be used in your house, such as housecode P units 1 - 10 (or however many switches you have which misbehave), install a different one of those X-10 codes in each switch, and test it. If it tests okay, then you know you have overwritten any other X-10 code that might have been there, and you know that all switches have a different X-10 code so there should be no X-10 linking. After 24 hours (adjust to suit) you can go back and clear those codes or even do another factory reset. Yes, it is a huge amount of work, but if all else fails, give it a thought.

[upstatemike]

I'll unplug the ISY shortly and then we will see. I don't think we have enough information for a diagnosis yet, but maybe by tomorrow we will know what needs to be done.

[IndyMike]

Upstate,

 

Sounds like a nice system (I like the hardwired motion sensor).

 

I have seen instances where X10 transmissions have "morphed" (changed house code or unit code) in the presence of noise. I have never seen a valid X10 communication produced purely from noise. To that end, is your Stargate unit capable of registering Insteon traffic and preventing a possible collision? I've wondered this about my X10 transmitters (very difficult to test).

 

Unfortunately the "morphing" and "collision" theories don't work if the ISY doesn't register the activity (can't be a rogue X10 receipt if the ISY doesn't log it?).

 

I am extremely interested in your outcome. Like you I'm using a combined X10/Insteon system and have seen some rogue events (not repeatable).

 

IM

 

 

Hardwired motion sensor connected to Stargate triggers an X10 ON from Stargate based on rules (time of day, is the light set to stay on and ignore motion, etc.)

 

I have tried to manually trigger the switches with X10 commands but have not been able to reproduce the problem. I do not think any X10 address is set in any of these devices, but only a peek at the switch's local settings can confirm that 100% (An invalid value in the X10 register could produce unpredictable results from general X10 traffic without responding consistently to any specific X10 command.)

[upstatemike]

Yes the Stargate listens to the powerline and waits until it is clear before transmitting. It does not understand Insteon but will see it as line noise and will avoid collisions with Insteon traffic.

 

To learn more about Stargate check out jdstechnologies.com

 

ISY is now unplugged.

[upstatemike]

OK. At 20:42 the attic lights turned on by themelves. The ISY has been unplugged for the last 23 1/2 hours so I guess it is off the hook for being the cause.

 

Only 2 of the 7 linked switches came on but the Keypadlinc button D LED DID light up.

 

All devices have been through a factory reset so it should not be related to X10 traffic. My best guess at this point would be that a demon or poltergeist is actually pressing buttons in the attic to turn these lights on.

 

Tomorrow I am going to replace the keypadlinc to see if that does anything.

[Guest]

OK. At 20:42 the attic lights turned on by themelves. The ISY has been unplugged for the last 23 1/2 hours so I guess it is off the hook for being the cause.

 

Only 2 of the 7 linked switches came on but the Keypadlinc button D LED DID light up.

 

All devices have been through a factory reset so it should not be related to X10 traffic. My best guess at this point would be that a demon or poltergeist is actually pressing buttons in the attic to turn these lights on.

 

Tomorrow I am going to replace the keypadlinc to see if that does anything.

 

Maybe you want to try airgapping the keypadlinc and leaving it that way. With no power to it you can eliminate it as the culprit if it happens again.

 

Easier than pulling it out.

[upstatemike]

Good idea. I'll disable it tomorrow and see if I can go a couple of days without the lights coming on.

[upstatemike]

It has now been 24 hours with the keypad disabled using the airgap switch. No lights have turned themselves on during this period. I am going to restore power to the keypad now and see what happens.

[upstatemike]

While I am waiting to see what happens with the Attic lights I need to troubleshoot another issue. In this configuration I have 4 switches, 3 lamps, a controllinc, and 3 scenes.

 

I will refer to the switches as switch 3, switch 4, switch 5, and entry switch.

 

The scenes are: controlinc button 5 scene, switch 3 scene, switch and switch 5 scene.

 

Contrlinc button 5 scene is controlled by controlinc button 5 AND entry switch. This scene controls all switches and lamps.

 

Switch 3 scene is controlled by switch 3 AND switch 4. It controls switch 3, switch 4, and the lamps.

 

Switch 5 scene is controlled by switch 5. It controls switch 4 as a responder only. (Switch 4 does not control switch 5.)

 

PROBLEM: All switches work as expected EXCEPT switch 4. Switch 4 should act exactly the same as swithc 3 and control the switch 3 group. This should only operate switch 3, switch 4, and the lamps.

 

INSTEAD, switch 4 acts like it is operating the controlinc button 5 scene because ALL lights and lamps operate when switch 4 is pressed.

 

I have reviewed the associations within ISY to confirm that I have not overlooked any links.

 

I have restored switch 4 to make sure it has a clean link table.

 

I have restored switch 5 and entry switch to ensure no stray responder links remain in their tables.

 

Despite these steps, switch 4 still operated all the lights and lamps.

 

I did a factory reset of entry switch and then restored it again (just to be really really sure there is not responder link for switch 4 still in it).

 

Entry switch still goes on when I operate switch 4!

 

What else can I do to troubleshoot this? Clearly there are links persisting even through a factory reset!

[IndyMike]

Upstate,

 

I don't mean this to sound insulting, but is it possible that you're not actually performing the reset? Depending on the "fit" of the switch plate it can sometimes be difficult to depress and hold the "set" button. I've found that a small, flat "green stick" can be very helpful in prying the set button out and then depressing it.

 

You might try reseting your switch and then communicating with it prior to reloading. If all of the links are still intact (as well as ramp rates and levels) your reset didn't "take". I suppose its possible that the internal "set" button isn't functioning.

 

IM

[upstatemike]

I thought of that but the LEDs on the switch confirm when the button is in and when it is released.

 

I just looked at the link table of the entry switch using PowerHome and it is definitely a mess. I am now looking for some confirmation that a factory reset is supposed to completely clear the link table? I am going to clear the switch again and then take another look at the link table before restoring the switch.

[IndyMike]

I just looked at the link table of the entry switch using PowerHome and it is definitely a mess. I am now looking for some confirmation that a factory reset is supposed to completely clear the link table? I am going to clear the switch again and then take another look at the link table before restoring the switch.

 

It was always my understanding that a "factory reset" would completely clear the memory (not sure how you could perform a partial clear).

 

I don't have my PLC running at the moment and can't verify things with powerhome. I did try a reset on a Icon - afterward it will not communicate with the PLM or scene members. Not exactly conclusive, but if yours responds differently I'd say you have a switch problem.

 

We are exercising the "writing" of the switches a lot more with the ISY (it's so painless now). I haven't worked with embedded controllers or EEproms since the 80's. At that time guaranteed write cycles were in the 1000's. What are current devices capable of?

[upstatemike]

No amount of factory resetting is resulting in an empty link table for some reason. I can manually delete the individual links that should not be in the switch and get things working correctly. For some reason though, doing a restore on the switch from ISY will add back the incorrect links. (I checked again to make sure these links are not reflected in the administrative console.)

 

So now I am wondering if some old scenes that I have deleted are coming back to haunt me? Do I need to reset and restore the PLM?

 

I think I will leave it alone for a couple of days and then take a fresh look.

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

If you chose the third option to bring the existing links, then any time you do a restore, those links that were imported and are not represented in ISY, will be written back. The only way to rectify this (quite painful) is to remove this device from ISY and then add it back using the first option.

 

As far as factory reset not working, you only have to look at the first byte (not everything has to be 00 00 for it to be considered factory reset): if all the records start with 00 (high watermark) or 22 (unused) then you can consider the device reset.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

No amount of factory resetting is resulting in an empty link table for some reason. I can manually delete the individual links that should not be in the switch and get things working correctly. For some reason though, doing a restore on the switch from ISY will add back the incorrect links. (I checked again to make sure these links are not reflected in the administrative console.)

 

So now I am wondering if some old scenes that I have deleted are coming back to haunt me? Do I need to reset and restore the PLM?

 

I think I will leave it alone for a couple of days and then take a fresh look.

[upstatemike]

Thanks Michel-

 

I will try doing that with these devices and see if it resolves my problem. The only truly painful part will be the ControLinc.

 

Question: If option 1 will clean the junk out of a switch programmatically, can't the device restore function be made to do the same thing? Maybe restore should automatically delete and then add back a device using the option 1 code?

[upstatemike]

OK this cleaned things up. The key to the puzzle was learning that Restore Device will put back links that are not represented in the ISY GUI. This explains why my cycles of Factory Reset/Restore Device was not getting me anywhere.

 

I am now going to apply this to my attic light problem to see if I can solve that once and for all. I will delete the keypad and all 17 associated switches and add them back using option 1. Fortunately I have my 21 pages of topology to refer to, so re-entering everything should not be that bad.

[Michel Kohanim]

upstatemike,

 

We do most of that (trying to clean) but previously (and some comments came from you) it was requested that we do not simply get rid of links we didn't like. Restore is there to help going back to the last known state.

 

We might consider it for a future release ...

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thanks Michel-

 

I will try doing that with these devices and see if it resolves my problem. The only truly painful part will be the ControLinc.

 

Question: If option 1 will clean the junk out of a switch programmatically, can't the device restore function be made to do the same thing? Maybe restore should automatically delete and then add back a device using the option 1 code?

[upstatemike]

upstatemike,

 

We do most of that (trying to clean) but previously (and some comments came from you) it was requested that we do not simply get rid of links we didn't like. Restore is there to help going back to the last known state.

 

We might consider it for a future release ...

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

Yes I think we did discuss situations where ISY needed to co-exist with unsupported Insteon devices. Perhaps a checkbox where you can choose to clear unsupported links or not when you start a restore? Or a different "Clear Device" menu option that is specifically meant to clear all links, known and unkown, just like a factory reset?

 

Anyway, I just deleted and re-installed the entire 3rd floor/attic area. Hopefully this will end those issues once and for all.

[upstatemike]

I have had no further problems since removing and re-adding the switches and keypad on Friday using the "remove existing links" option. Going forward I will make this my 1st step in troubleshooting problems and eventually I will perform this procedure on all of my remaining 150 devices to ensure that I maintain a stable Insteon environment.

 

Now that these mystery problems are behind me I can finally move forward with trying out my new Insteon touch screen!

[IndyMike]

Upstate,

 

That's great news. I was beginning to get concerned - the symptoms resembled some of the X10 problems of bygone years.

 

I suppose I should dig out my PLC and powerhome to make sure that I don't have any "old" links running around in my devices. Most of my installs were performed with the "replace all existing links", but I can't be 100% sure.

 

Thanks for having the patience to see this one through. It was a rather long and winding road. This should be a great help to the rest of the forum for "future" phantom problems (I've bookmarked this thread).

 

IM