Whole House Surge Supressor to improve communication issues

[someguy]

I'd like to install a whole house surge supressor to protect my stuff. I'd also like to have some hope that it could improve my relatively mild signal issues. I'd like to see if the forum can answer some questions:

 

1) Is it the very nature of a surge supressor to clean up the noise coming into my house or will some do a better job than others?

2) Can anyone suggest a particularly good one and why?

[io_guy]

I use Eaton's CHSP unit, only because it's sold at my local Home Depot.

Whole home units should not affect Insteon signals (for good or bad). They are not designed for signal conditioning/filtering.

[someguy]

I use Eaton's CHSP unit, only because it's sold at my local Home Depot.

Whole home units should not affect Insteon signals (for good or bad). They are not designed for signal conditioning/filtering.

 

The last post on this page would beg to differ:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8643&start=135

 

I asked this question in that thread, but it was off topic and no one has replied.

[LeeG]

Not everyone agrees that a "Surge Suppressor", whole house or otherwise, is designed to remove small noise signals at the sine wave near 0 cross point.

[Brian H]

Surge suppressors clamp off higher than normally encountered voltages.

I don't see how a surge suppressor would do anything for noise unless it was a very high noise spike capable of being clamped off.

 

If one exists that also filtered noise. Unless made for Insteon or X10. It would probably absorb the power line signals as noise.

 

X10Pro use to make a Whole House Noise Suppressor but it didn't do surge suppression. It also was a passive coupler between the homes split phase.

[someguy]

Michel:

 

are you there? do you or any of your people have comments to share?

[LeeG]

Great points Brian. There are devices with Surge and Noise suppression built into the same device. Google "Surge and Noise suppressors". Some hits are for Surge only, others are for Surge and Noise suppression. Whole house surge suppression is designed for "surge" protection which is very different from noise.

 

EDIT: to be clear I am not trying to say whole house surge suppression is not good. One only needs to search the various forums for stories of thousands of dollars of damage caused by a lighting strike on power lines a half mile down the road which may have been prevented by a $200 whole house surge suppressor. They are very good at what they do. Just the ones I have seen are not designed to improve a noisy powerline that is interfering with Insteon reliability.

[ELA]

Hello SomeGuy,

To add to what Brian has said:

 

Some people on the Smarthome forum often tend to lump all plug/surge strips under one umbrella , as Surge Protected = bad. They tell people if it is Surge protected it is bad and should not be used.

 

I always try to qualify that with a Surge-Strip with surge protection only is fine.

 

If they also have EMI filtration then that is bad for Insteon signals.

All EMI filters are not equal. Some use 0.01uf capacitors and they can be tolerated in an Insteon installation. Many use 0.1uf capacitors and those suck too much signal and should not be used.

The problem comes in "knowing" whether or not the "Surge-Protector" incorporates EMI filtration and what size capacitor is used. Look for a note stating that it has EMI filtration, something like " EMI/RFI Noise Filtration: 100khz - 30MHz up to 40dB reduction". That is bad.

 

I have found that some Surge-Protectors do not state that they have an EMI filter on the outside of the package. Then upon opening the package there may be a specification sheet inside that does say they have an EMI filter. I have also bought Surge strips that saying nothing outside or Inside about EMI filtering yet they have a 0.1uf signal sucker inside!

 

With respect to Whole House Surge protectors I would not expect them to include EMI filtering, however as I stated above it may be difficult to know for sure unless they explicitly state that they do. There are ways to test whether or not they do if you want to be sure before installing a unit.

 

The reason I go through this lengthy explanation is that having Surge Protecting , "MOVs", is a very good thing for protecting all electronics. Some people do a dis-service by simply saying, do not use Surge-Protection in an Insteon equipped home. I use as many Surge-Only strips as I can to help protect my investment. I do weed out any with EMI filters however.

 

As others have said do not expect a Surge Only protector to improve a marginal signal issue.

[aLf]

So with all the above said. What is a guy to do? If the strip thing is the best, does that mean a strip for every electronic? The whole house would seem better, but then what happens when the Generac starts up (Has own power panel)? If the strip thing is a good fix, what brand and supplier do most of you guys use?

 

Thanks,

 

aLf

[someguy]

So with all the above said. What is a guy to do? If the strip thing is the best, does that mean a strip for every electronic? The whole house would seem better, but then what happens when the Generac starts up (Has own power panel)? If the strip thing is a good fix, what brand and supplier do most of you guys use?

 

Thanks,

 

aLf

 

What is a Generac?

[aLf]

Partial house generator. Made by Generac here in WI. It has its own power panel (CB's) and can power a good share of the house.

 

Here is a posters use with pictures.

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=8805

[Teken]

So with all the above said. What is a guy to do? If the strip thing is the best, does that mean a strip for every electronic? The whole house would seem better, but then what happens when the Generac starts up (Has own power panel)? If the strip thing is a good fix, what brand and supplier do most of you guys use?

 

Thanks,

 

aLf

 

I am using a Sycom 120/240 whole house surge protector. This device has already saved my entire home against a two week long lightning storm. The first unit saved every thing in my home, and sacrificing itself by a loud pop and a terrible stench!

 

Unfortunately, for me and hundreds of others the storms did not leave our fair city for another 2 weeks. At this time the second strike damaged my brand new dishwasher, but was covered by insurance with any out of pocket expense.

 

The unit has a lifetime warranty protection and a $50K insurance coverage against loss. The product is made in the USA, and owned by a great Canadian fellow.

 

The second Sycom 120 / 240 was installed shortly there after and now protects my home as a secondary surge protector. To ensure a measure of redundancy, a primary surge arrestor was installed on the service entrance meter itself by the POCO.

 

Many states have programs where you can pay a small monthly fee and have them install the unit. This in my mind is the best route to follow, as if the unit should suffer a disaster event they will have to replace it free of charge! If you opt to purchase your own primary surge arrestor, you will have to pay someone to turn off the power, remove the meter, and then install the unit for you. If the unit should fail do to a strike you will have to again pay someone to turn off the power, remove the meter, and the surge arrester and replace it again.

 

With a lease / rented unit the costs is born on the utility company! I unfortunately don't have this option in my area.

 

Besides installing a primary as well as a secondary surge arrestor at the service panel. All critical electrical outlets have point of use surge / alarm units, in place of their standard outlets.

 

These units are filtered and also have LED indicators and audible sirens to inform the user surge protection has been lost. There are two types in use, one is for fail secure, while the other is fail safe.

 

The difference is how it will perform during a surge event / disaster situation. For instance my sump pump is using a *Fail Safe* surge protector. If the devices *Surge Protection* is damaged, it will sound its alarm, and the LED will go out. It will however still allow power to flow to the sump pump to ensure full water protection.

 

This same method is used for the freezer / fridge . . . The *Fail Secure* units are installed on very expensive devices or mission critical devices such as computer servers, alarm panels, audio / video, security camera systems, etc. If the surge portion is compromised than the alarm goes off, LED goes out, but power is not restored to the device until the device is reset.

 

This ensures complete protection to ensure it allows the user to determine if it is safe to restore power etc.

 

Of course it goes with out saying that using and deploying large battery UPS devices is paramount to ensure a graceful shutdown of key systems during a power outage event.

 

Keep in mind all the protection in the world, does not address the most important aspect of electrical protection, and that is to have a solid and good ground at the service panel.

 

At the end of the day its a layered approach that is paramount to ensure the highest level of protection. Multiple / extended storms (As it was in my case) can wipe out all your protection in one single event. This is why having back up's and point of use surge arresters are so important!

 

Keep in mind a whole house surge protector is designed to clamp down at very high voltages. This does not protect sensitive electronics, which is the job of a point of use surge protector! As they have lower *set* threshold and sacrifice themselves at much lower let through voltages, which is the end goal.

 

Teken . . .

[someguy]

Teken:

 

Where do you live that you need such layers of protection?

[apostolakisl]

I have installed Leviton whole house surge suppressors at the 3 panels in my house.

 

No change in Insteon behavior was noted for better or worse.

[Teken]

Teken:

 

Where do you live that you need such layers of protection?

 

Hello Someguy,

 

Mother Nature doesn't care where you live! Nor does living in any specific place, assure safety against lightning strikes, or man made surge events. Having lived in LA, CA, NY, and many others parts of North America rolling brown outs and natural surge events were typical.

 

Having lived through years of destruction, I simply employ anything and everything I can to protect my family and home. Keeping in mind there are many ways to protect a device using tried and true electrical / electronic means.

 

For instance I use a combination of fully regulated and fused transformers, opto-isolators, SSR's (solid state relays) where and when they are required. The end goal is to ensure complete isolation, or at the very least make sure the voltage entering the device is limited either optically, or using induced magnetism.

 

At the end of the day the most effective method is to unplug any device during a power event. Even simpler to turn off breakers or even the main breaker to the service entrance.

 

The only difference in what I have done is made as much of it automated during such events.

 

Over the top? Yes . . .

 

Crazy? Yes . . .

 

Do I sleep better at night, away, or otherwise during a power event? Yes, always!

 

Teken . . .

[apostolakisl]

Teken:

 

Where do you live that you need such layers of protection?

 

Hello Someguy,

 

Mother Nature doesn't care where you live! .

 

Well now that isn't exactly true. It's all statistical probability. No one lives in a zero risk area, but some areas are far higher risk than other areas. The weather service has maps of the US with the average number of lightening strikes across the country and you can see it is far from even.

 

But, don't forget that surges don't necessarily come from the electric utility. You can have your breaker panel completely shut down and have not a single connection to the outside world at all, and a near by lightening strike can produce an EM wave that induces current in the wires that are sitting in the walls of your house. The only sure fire way to prevent surge damage is to encase your house in a Faraday cage and ground everything to it. This is basically what they do at the base of radio/TV transmission towers.

[Teken]

Teken:

 

Where do you live that you need such layers of protection?

 

Hello Someguy,

 

Mother Nature doesn't care where you live! .

 

Well now that isn't exactly true. It's all statistical probability. No one lives in a zero risk area, but some areas are far higher risk than other areas. The weather service has maps of the US with the average number of lightening strikes across the country and you can see it is far from even.

 

But, don't forget that surges don't necessarily come from the electric utility. You can have your breaker panel completely shut down and have not a single connection to the outside world at all, and a near by lightening strike can produce an EM wave that induces current in the wires that are sitting in the walls of your house. The only sure fire way to prevent surge damage is to encase your house in a Faraday cage and ground everything to it. This is basically what they do at the base of radio/TV transmission towers.

 

True, but the likely hood of those events happening are less likely. The majority of damage happens due to a combination of man made / natural disasters. A lull / brown out is more dangerous to electronics than a sudden surge (to a certain point). As many devices are either not well regulated or designed in a fashion when voltage goes low, the inverse is that the device will increase in current draw.

 

The increase in current draw will damage small wiring, electronic IC's etc. Most electronics are well designed to extremely short bursts of voltage upwards to 240 volts. At the end of the day almost anyone can deploy a measure of electrical protection.

 

It comes down to the person having the will and ingenuity to make it so. Nothing stops a person from leaving an appliance / device unplugged. Only plug it in for that just in time use, it also reduce the chance of vampire draw etc. Moving toward something more practical would be to turn off a row or banks of breakers in the service panel.

 

Both are quite manual and doesn't lend itself to having full protection as no one will ever be fully aware or present when a electrical event is happening. That is why deploying and integrating automated systems to assist the user is so important.

 

Key things to consider is that there are two types of protectors: Proactive, and Reactive. Using a combination of the two will assure the highest level of protection God willing!

 

Teken . . .

[apostolakisl]

In my highly scientific study. . . which is reading cocoontech.com anecdotes. . . the only fried equipment anyone ever reports is lightening related. Certainly any number of events can damage equipment, but I would be willing to bet that 90% are lightening related. And many of those people report that their actual structure or a tree right next to it was hit.

 

So, again based on highly scientific process of anecdotal reports, it would seem that the three most common causes are lightening, lightening, and more lightening.

 

I am not sure that a whole house surge suppressor does anything when there is a strike to the actual structure or a nearby structure as the surge doesn't arrive via the utility. This is where a proper ground is key. You want your house to be like a boat in a harbor. When the tide comes in, you want the whole boat to float up nice and even. When a lightening strike occurs, you want the potential of the whole house to go up nice and even and then back down nice and even. This requires a single high quality ground that everything is tied into. More than one ground and you are toast as the current flows through the house instead of just "lifting" the potential of the whole house and then letting it back down without flow of electrons.

 

But even at that, you have thousands of feet of wire in the house acting as a big antenna. The EM pulse of lightening can induce current in those wires and I really don't think there is a darn thing you can do about that short of wrapping your house in a Faraday cage.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am not discounting proactive maneuvers you describe. I have done many of them myself. But, don't get too secure thinking that you have made yourself immune. That's all

[ELA]

There are many source of electrical transients other than lightning to be concerned about.

Rarely does the average person do a root cause analysis of why their electronics have died and thus transients have often been the cause, just never reported because they would not know without having been testing.

 

Here is one of many possible links describing sources of transients:

http://www.tvss.net/quick/start2.htm

 

UL recognizes that electronic equipment may be subjected to many transients ( most often from sources other than lightning) during their lifetime and this is why UL testing of all kinds of electronic equipment require Electrical Fast Transient testing.

[someguy]

Hello SomeGuy,

To add to what Brian has said:

 

Some people on the Smarthome forum often tend to lump all plug/surge strips under one umbrella , as Surge Protected = bad. They tell people if it is Surge protected it is bad and should not be used.

 

I always try to qualify that with a Surge-Strip with surge protection only is fine.

 

If they also have EMI filtration then that is bad for Insteon signals.

All EMI filters are not equal. Some use 0.01uf capacitors and they can be tolerated in an Insteon installation. Many use 0.1uf capacitors and those suck too much signal and should not be used.

The problem comes in "knowing" whether or not the "Surge-Protector" incorporates EMI filtration and what size capacitor is used. Look for a note stating that it has EMI filtration, something like " EMI/RFI Noise Filtration: 100khz - 30MHz up to 40dB reduction". That is bad.

 

I have found that some Surge-Protectors do not state that they have an EMI filter on the outside of the package. Then upon opening the package there may be a specification sheet inside that does say they have an EMI filter. I have also bought Surge strips that saying nothing outside or Inside about EMI filtering yet they have a 0.1uf signal sucker inside!

 

With respect to Whole House Surge protectors I would not expect them to include EMI filtering, however as I stated above it may be difficult to know for sure unless they explicitly state that they do. There are ways to test whether or not they do if you want to be sure before installing a unit.

 

The reason I go through this lengthy explanation is that having Surge Protecting , "MOVs", is a very good thing for protecting all electronics. Some people do a dis-service by simply saying, do not use Surge-Protection in an Insteon equipped home. I use as many Surge-Only strips as I can to help protect my investment. I do weed out any with EMI filters however.

 

As others have said do not expect a Surge Only protector to improve a marginal signal issue.

 

So, would this be a good one or not?

 

[ELA]

Hello Someguy,

 

I am not sure what your question is. What you show appears to be a specification for an EMI filter. Surge -only protectors will only list things like , clamping voltage, let-through voltage etc. All Surge protectors do is to clip or limit the peak of a transient. Manufactures then often add an EMI filter, along with an MOV ( peak clipping device), to reduce the remaining lower level high frequency components after the peak has been clipped.

If you look at that specification it specifies a 38dB reduction at 130KHz. This means that such a filter will attenuate your Insteon signal by that much.

 

There are many different types of Filters for many different purposes. Whether or not they are good ones for an Insteon Install depends upon what you want to accomplish vs. where in the wiring you position them.

 

As far as the original discussion on Surge-Only protection you do not want an EMI filter located at the Service cabinet as it will attenuate Insteon signals at a crucial juncture ( often the point where a Insteon Hardware signal coupler might be located).

 

As Brian mentioned earlier I believe there are filters that you can put at the service entrance to filter out interference ( RF vs. surges) from outside the home but still preserve X10 signals.

 

A good example of filter concepts is the Filterlinc. It both isolates Insteon signals as well as filters RF that might interfere with Insteon signals. This device has a "tuned" filter to "appear like" an open switch to Insteon signals, yet to frequencies outside of the Insteon band it "appears as" a short circuit.

Please note that I am greatly over simplifying this description in hopes that the concept will be easier to understand. In practice the components are not ideal open or short circuits to any or all frequencies.

 

The difficult issue for Insteon users is how to find Surge-only (MOVs only) protection devices and to avoid units with EMI filters in an area where you still want Insteon signals to freely flow. I have methods available to me to to specifically test to see if a "Surge Protection Device" will or will not "suck or attenuate" the Insteon signal.

Yet several times now I have purchased Surge Protectors that I believed to be MOV -only devices just to test when I got home and find out they had EMI filters also that sucked Insteon signals. Of course if the outside of the package states they have EMI filters I do not purchase them to begin with. However as I stated above many manufactures to not indicate that they include EMI filters on the outside of the package. Most sales people will not have a clue if you ask if they include EMI filters ( unless printed on the package).

 

If you buy a device that says it is a "Plug-Strip" vs. a "surge protector" that usually indicates no protective devices at all inside, if all you want is multiple plug-ins.

For my purposes I want both multiple plug-ins + MOV protection only.

 

This is why I feel that SmartLabs really should offer a "Surge-Strip" that has multiple plug-ins + MOVs but no EMI filters to provide INsteon users a safe bet when purchasing a Surge protection strip.

 

I talked a lot about "Surge-Strips" but the concept is the same when looking for a Whole House protector.

I know that over the years more and more manufactures seem to be including EMI filters in their Surge Strips than they used to years ago. I do not know if the same is true for Whole house protectors as I have not shopped for them. Just remember to avoid the term EMI/RF filter when shopping for them, unless they might specifically be designed for Insteon use which would mean they also "Isolate" the Insteon Frequency band.

 

If this seems confusing then you can understand why most people just prefer to say avoide using Surge Strips.

[someguy]

does this mean that my Monster Brand and other power strips / surge protectors may be the culprits in my communication problems?

[ELA]

Any surge strips that might have an EMI filter integral to them will attenuate your Insteon signal to some extent. I would expect a "Monster unit" to include an EMI filter.

 

The above is a simplified answer. It gets much more complex as to quantifying how severe the attenuation might be based on many factors. If you suspect a Surge/EMI strip may be attenuating your signal ,and you do not require the Insteon signal to flow through that strip ( and go to a downstream Insteon device), you can test by disconnecting it temporarily or putting a filterlinc ahead of it.

 

If a person has several Surge/EMI strips distributed throughout their home the accumulative effect to attenuating Insteon signal can be very significant. These Surge/EMI strips do not need to be right next to an Insteon device in order to become an issue.

 

While good quality Surge/EMI strips are usually a desirable thing for protecting equipment, they can really deteriorate an Insteon signal in some cases.

[ELA]

Someguy,

I have a few devices at my disposal that allow my to quantify just how severe a "signal sucker" is. I test a Surge strip after I purchase it, to be sure it does not suck Insteon signal. Before the purchase I first make sure the package specifications do not indicate an attenuation figure. As I mentioned still sometimes I find that there is an internal EMI capacitor even though not explicitly stated anywhere in the documents and if so I return the unit.

Realizing that most people do not have a method to tell if their Surge strips might include an EMI filter I have been been thinking about a simple test that might help them out.

I tested this concept on one Surge/EMI filter strip that I have that I know includes a 0.1uf cap inside.

 

Here is something you can try if you own a volt meter. If you do and are willing I would appreciate hearing your results. I only had one unit to test so I am not sure it will work in all cases. There are some other variables like status LEDS etc. that might skew the results.

 

Again if you have a meter and are willing: ( please exercise caution, the Surge strip should not be connected to a 120VAC source for this test!

1) Unplug the surge strip from the power line, remove all plug-in loads. Let it sit for a minute or so.

2) Connect your volt meter ( set to DC volts) to the neutral and hot pins of the plug. ( make sure the on/off switch is in the on position).

3) Touch the prongs of a 9 volt battery across the neutral and hot prongs of the plug end and confirm that the meter reads 8 -9 V.

a) Note that if there is a LED status that it may now be lit. If so then reverse the polarity of the battery at this point and confirm that the status LED is no longer lit.

4) Remove the battery and observe ( measure the time ) how long it takes for the voltage level do decay to less than some number, say 0.5V.

 

If it immediately decays then there is most likely not an internal EMI capacitor.

(( Assuming you had the battery connected with a polarity such that any status LED was NOT lit. Having the Status LED forward biased will drain any internal capacitor quicker and skew the results)).

 

The longer it takes to decay the larger the capacitor that may be included inside the unit. I tested two units that had a 0.1 uf cap inside. When connected such that the status LED was not on ..... it took a good 2-3 seconds to decay.

 

I tested another unit with a known 0.01uf capacitor inside. On this unit the decay was too fast for me to measure. My experience has been that these units with 0.01uf caps inside are not much of a concern so I would not worry about not being sure that there is no 0.01uf cap on a surge strip you use.

 

If you have a meter and can perform this testing on some of your units it would be welcome data. There are so many different units out there I could not say for sure this method will always work. Better than nothing though.

 

A 0.1uf capacitor can be a significant signal sucker depending upon where it might be located in your system. Especially if there are several such units. I have a few Surge/EMI strips that have a 0.01 uf cap inside. While they also do suck signal I do not consider them much to worry about.

 

More expensive surge/EMI strips ( perhaps your Monster) may also incorporate inductors. Depending upon the design these may or may not make them less of a signal sucker. That would require more sophisticated equipment to test for than this simple test.

7/1/12 : This has been updated after further testing ...

9/5/12: update after more testing

 

I ran this test on more two plug/surge strips I found that had been in storage for years. Not knowing if they were signal suckers or not this gave me a chance to use this test once again.

The first one did not have any status LED and tested with a resulting discharge that was immediate ( not a signal sucker).

The second unit did have a status LED. With the battery in one polarity connection it discharged within less than 1 second. With the battery in the opposite polarity it took nearly 4 seconds to discharge to less than 0.5V from 9 Volts. A BIG SIGNAL SUCKER!

I also confirmed these results with my custom tester.

 

This test appears to be a very effective way to check a plug/surge strip in question for whether or not it is a signal sucker.

ONE ADDITIONAL NOTE:

Just to be sure test with the battery in both polarity connections. When I tested this second unit I initially did not recognize that the LED was lit ( tested in a well lighted area).

This polarity discharged fast due to LED current drain.

This could lead to an assumption that it was not a signal sucker when in reality it was. Testing in the other polarity showed the slow discharge indicative of a capacitor inside. In this case it must be 0.1uf or larger since it was a pretty slow discharge.

[garry84]

This is a very difficult exercise to improve your communication issues. Not all of your appliances can protect by your surge suppressor there are several issues you will obtain if you don't perform it at the right method. Maybe you should ask for an expert with this plan of yours.