Smart home has lost its loyalty to its Customers

[oberkc]

But SH is kind of leaching off of UD when it comes to customer support.

 

I don't know if "leaching" is the most accurate expression, but it seems obvious to me that the UD forum benefits smarthome. I might also say that Universal Devices benefits from the smarthome forum. Whether the benefits are balanced...I am not sure anyone knows.

[apostolakisl]

But SH is kind of leaching off of UD when it comes to customer support.

 

I don't know if "leaching" is the most accurate expression, but it seems obvious to me that the UD forum benefits smarthome. I might also say that Universal Devices benefits from the smarthome forum. Whether the benefits are balanced...I am not sure anyone knows.

 

The question should really not be are the forum's balanced, but rather is the assistance provided by paid employees/owners of each company balanced. User to user assistance on SH forum vs this forum is really 6 or half dozen.

[oronomus]

Back on topic - got a smarthome email a few days ago offering free shipping on Insteon products. Suspect this might have been porompted by Amazon, but don't know for sure. Anyway, Insteon products are still way overpriced for the value they offer, IMO... Wish someone could provide a solid answer on the patent expiration question. I suspect its compicated, as SL has introduced new products on a regular basis - and certainly has filed new patent applications ....

[Brian H]

I have found in a web search. 20 or 14 years depending on what type patent it is in legalese.

I believe the X10 ones where 20 years.

When the I2 and now I2CS protocols where introduced they may start the clock for their changes over again.

[apostolakisl]

Back on topic - got a smarthome email a few days ago offering free shipping on Insteon products. Suspect this might have been porompted by Amazon, but don't know for sure. Anyway, Insteon products are still way overpriced for the value they offer, IMO... Wish someone could provide a solid answer on the patent expiration question. I suspect its compicated, as SL has introduced new products on a regular basis - and certainly has filed new patent applications ....

 

There is a good chance that these are trade secrets and are not patented. While you can't really keep the hardware secret since you can't stop someone from reverse engineering it, you can keep your source code secret. I don't really know how SH manages that. It is quite obvious, however, that at least some of their stuff works on the "keep it secret" premise based on their lack of protocol sharing.

 

But with zwave support soon to hit ISY, we will have lots of choices while still maintaining a nearly seamless integration. Zwave is licensed to multiple manufacturers unlike Insteon.

[oronomus]

Did a quick USPTO search on "Smart Labs" as assignee. Patents have to be filed in the name of individuals. Where those individuals work for a company, the idividual "assigns" ownership of the patent to that company. I found the following (hope it takes you to the page I saw). Some of you engineer types might want to read this and tell us if it is relevant.

 

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... NM.&OS=AN/

[woodchip]

Just joined this forum for some of the some reasons being bandied about here, you asked “Anyone observe other companies go through the same process…†yes, X10 appears to be experiencing some serious market issues and while I’ve toyed with migrating to INSTEON or another automation solution in the past… I’m more serious now.

 

Poor customer service and a general lack of knowledge with the product has brought me here. A Smarthome support representative suggested I contact UDI and in that process I discovered this forum. I’ve been all over the web and the Smarthome forum trying to get some (what I think are) simple questions answered and I’m totally disgusted.

 

I’ll post more when I finish reading; it seems I’m not alone in my dissatisfaction with Smarthome.

 

No worries. At the rate SmartLabs is reducing the retail device product line it gives one pause as to whether SmartLabs is getting out of the retail business. Anyone observe other companies go through the same process, reduce expenses, drop all but the most profitable products. All good business decisions, or the prelude to dropping the line altogether.

 

If Smarthome had to solve all the non ISY issues that get solved on this forum they would need many more people in support.

[woodchip]

Greetings,

 

I am a new member to this forum but I am not a novice to automation technology (I am responsible for 5 Crestron controlled videoconferencing room systems across 3 states, have the ability to program, and I’m also quite familiar with AMX) . I’ve been using variations of home automation technology for 20+ years and I’ve pushed X10 to the limits. I’m currently running an X10 CM15A in conjunction with ActiveHome software on a PC using around 50+ unit codes across 6 house codes, controlling lighting, motors, and security devices. My first programmable home controller ran on DOS and an IBM PC with an 8088 processor and dual floppies. Most of you probably don’t even know what that stuff is. Don’t we love technology? I’ll do my best to keep my queries here to the ISY’s and UDI product line.

 

Here are the 2 questions I had today for the Smarthome representative who is responsible for my being here…

1. Is there an ISY994i PRO kit without the IR option?

2. What is the cost of upgrading the ISY994i to PRO and what is involved in the “Field Upgrade†is it only installing a larger SD card?

[LeeG]

"Is there an ISY994i PRO kit without the IR option?"

 

Yes. See this link for the available 994 variants and prices. I believe Brian already posted this link on the Smarthome forum.

 

http://sales.universal-devices.com/resi ... 4i-series/

 

"What is the cost of upgrading the ISY994i to PRO and what is involved in the “Field Upgradeâ€

 

I believe it is $30 for the upgrade. That is the difference between the price of the 994 versus 994 Pro. The link above has that information.

 

The Pro update is a change in the firmware. Once the Pro option is obtained the same 994 ISY Image is installed regardless of non-Pro/Pro non-IR/IR.

[Brian H]

I have a ISY994i Pro and did a Purchase Modules test.

Shows $30.00 and not reversible.

 

I added an IR update to my older ISY99i. In that instance you purchased the small IR PCB and installed it inside the ISY99i and purchased the firmware module after installing the PCB.

 

1. My thoughts are Smathome doesn't stock the ISY994i without the IR included.

They sometimes only stock some of the avilable models.

 

Just to confuse some folks. In most forums including the Smarthome forum I am BLH.

Here and in the X10 Forums where I am a Community Organizer. I am Brian H.

[woodchip]

Yes, I did see this posted in the topic on the Smarthome forum but this is not a “kit†as the power supply and PLM are not included. This is a stand alone at $319. The ISY994i kit at $299.99 including power supply and #2413s PLM is a better deal if $30 covers the upgrade to PRO.

 

"Is there an ISY994i PRO kit without the IR option?"

 

Yes. See this link for the available 994 variants and prices. I believe Brian already posted this link on the Smarthome forum.

 

http://sales.universal-devices.com/resi ... 4i-series/

 

"What is the cost of upgrading the ISY994i to PRO and what is involved in the “Field Upgradeâ€

 

I believe it is $30 for the upgrade. That is the difference between the price of the 994 versus 994 Pro. The link above has that information.

 

The Pro update is a change in the firmware. Once the Pro option is obtained the same 994 ISY Image is installed regardless of non-Pro/Pro non-IR/IR.

[woodchip]

I have a ISY994i Pro and did a Purchase Modules test.

Shows $30.00 and not reversible.

 

I added an IR update to my older ISY99i. In that instance you purchased the small IR PCB and installed it inside the ISY99i and purchased the firmware module after installing the PCB.

 

1. My thoughts are Smathome doesn't stock the ISY994i without the IR included.

They sometimes only stock some of the avilable models.

 

Just to confuse some folks. In most forums including the Smarthome forum I am BLH.

Here and in the X10 Forums where I am a Community Organizer. I am Brian H.

 

Thanks for the clarification Brian! Just to add to the confusion I'm woodchip here and kilbournj on ShF.

[woodchip]

It is with a significant amount of perseverance that answers have been discovered and now with some trepidation that I have purchased an ISY994i and a few other Smarthome trinkets.

 

I believe the ISY will be a far more stable control platform for my programming but I wonder if some of the unique programming tricks I’ve accomplished with ActiveHome Pro and the CM15A will be accommodated by the ISY and its programming software. Will I be able to trigger an action on a certain day of the year, every year? How about triggering multiple actions between a date range, reoccurring every year? Will I miss the 144+ flag combinations ActiveHome provided to set unique conditions to trigger actions? And, lastly will the ISY’s flexibility be broad enough to accommodate the way I used X10 extended commands?

 

The path to answering these questions could potentially be a lot of fun – or somewhere I prefer not to go. Thanks to all for your assistance and valued input and let's hope Smarthome gets their act together!

[C Martin]

woodchip,

You know that X10 is dead!

I had been using X10 since the 1970's. When Insteon came out I was elated.

I was a homeseer user and became dissatisfied with them.

When ISY came around I found a great solution. I had been an early adopter of ISY (Universal Devices - UDI) and have not looked back. They are responsive to their users and are always looking for ways to make their product better.

As you can see their user forum is fully and enthusiastically supported by some very dedicated and smart people.

Michel personally responds to many questions - I don't know when he sleeps.

As far as some of your desires in the features part of your posting, we have been asking for these things and Universal Devices has most of them on their list of future enhancements. We have all learned to be patient and we do now and again remind them of our desires for some of these enhancements. You can post a request in the forum with your list and see what Michel has to say. I am sure that his list is very very long. But they do whittle the list and come out with items.

As far as SmartHome - Insteon is apparently its own entity and they have generally been responsive to our needs. Smarthome is their primary Marketing arm. They are connected. My beef is Smarthome has divested themselves into many other product lines and seems to have forgotten whence they came. They obviously feel that they need to carry many more lines to justify their existence.

I generally find their folks to be professional and responsive on a limited basis. Their marketing arm seems to have diluted their ability to remain focused to what I think are their core customers.

I personally think that staying with Insteon and Universal Devices is a good choice.

Remember, X10 was around for some 40 plus years before they concluded that their technology was done. They did provide a competitive benchmark for pricing home automation. This is always they way of technology. At some point someone will come out with a better price point for home automation and even equal or better features and then Insteon will have to respond.

 

Sorry for the "Long Winded" response.

I am passionate about Home Automation and as of now Universal Devices and Insteon.

Look through the post on this forum and you will find a lot of answers to your questions.

[apostolakisl]

Will I be able to trigger an action on a certain day of the year, every year? How about triggering multiple actions between a date range, reoccurring every year?

 

The answer is yes. . . but. It is not built into ISY, the only built-in recurring date function relates to days of week (like every Monday).

 

To be able to have something happen on some other recurring pattern (like every Dec 25th, or every 15th of the month) you would need to download a series of programs I wrote. It can be found here:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/ ... _Variables

 

It is a bit involved, but it is complete. There is virtually no recurring date function that you can't do with this set of programs.

[Brian H]

Woodchip; Smartlabs Inc. {manufacturing company} and Smarthome Inc. {sales company}. Same physical address independent corporations. Chose to use the X10 preset dim commands and not Extended X10 Messaging. The PLM does not support Extended X10 messaging at all.

Read Michel's reply in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8662

 

I have tried Insteon modules with X10 address added and the older 2000 series X10 only modules. In AHP. Since they only used Preset Dim or the old full On and stream down with dim commands. They where not completely compatible.

 

The other way also was not 100%. Using the older Smarthome 1132CU X10 controller with Smarthome Manager Essentials. The Preset dim commands would not work on X10 modules that can use extended X10 messaging.

 

If you are not going to be using X10 devices with extended messaging then it should not be a problem.

[woodchip]

woodchip,

You know that X10 is dead!

I had been using X10 since the 1970's. When Insteon came out I was elated.

I was a homeseer user and became dissatisfied with them.

When ISY came around I found a great solution. I had been an early adopter of ISY (Universal Devices - UDI) and have not looked back. They are responsive to their users and are always looking for ways to make their product better.

As you can see their user forum is fully and enthusiastically supported by some very dedicated and smart people.

Michel personally responds to many questions - I don't know when he sleeps.

As far as some of your desires in the features part of your posting, we have been asking for these things and Universal Devices has most of them on their list of future enhancements. We have all learned to be patient and we do now and again remind them of our desires for some of these enhancements. You can post a request in the forum with your list and see what Michel has to say. I am sure that his list is very very long. But they do whittle the list and come out with items.

As far as SmartHome - Insteon is apparently its own entity and they have generally been responsive to our needs. Smarthome is their primary Marketing arm. They are connected. My beef is Smarthome has divested themselves into many other product lines and seems to have forgotten whence they came. They obviously feel that they need to carry many more lines to justify their existence.

I generally find their folks to be professional and responsive on a limited basis. Their marketing arm seems to have diluted their ability to remain focused to what I think are their core customers.

I personally think that staying with Insteon and Universal Devices is a good choice.

Remember, X10 was around for some 40 plus years before they concluded that their technology was done. They did provide a competitive benchmark for pricing home automation. This is always they way of technology. At some point someone will come out with a better price point for home automation and even equal or better features and then Insteon will have to respond.

 

Sorry for the "Long Winded" response.

I am passionate about Home Automation and as of now Universal Devices and Insteon.

Look through the post on this forum and you will find a lot of answers to your questions.

 

 

Thanks for your input, especially those regarding X10 and INSTEON, and your endorsement of the INSTEON/UDI home automation systems. Over the years I’ve reviewed and mused over making the change to INSTEON. The preverbal straw came when I saw/heard some of the manufacturing and marketing issues currently floating around.

 

I’ve purchased plenty on pigs-in-a-poke over the years and while I wouldn’t necessarily put X10 in that exact category it has moved closer to the line over the years. Owning 4 models of X10 controllers (CP290, CM11A, 2-CM15A’s and a CM19A) the transitions from the 290 to the 15 were positive but the 15 and AHP never ran correctly and unless the “new†CM15A has significant improvements you are probably correct in writing an X10 business obituary. The X10 “industry standard†as a control protocol may be another story altogether… time will tell.

 

Thanks again and never worry about being “long windedâ€, real written words are much better than the “K languageâ€â€¦ K BFN?

[woodchip]

Will I be able to trigger an action on a certain day of the year, every year? How about triggering multiple actions between a date range, reoccurring every year?

 

The answer is yes. . . but. It is not built into ISY, the only built-in recurring date function relates to days of week (like every Monday).

 

To be able to have something happen on some other recurring pattern (like every Dec 25th, or every 15th of the month) you would need to download a series of programs I wrote. It can be found here:

 

http://www.universal-devices.com/mwiki/ ... _Variables

 

It is a bit involved, but it is complete. There is virtually no recurring date function that you can't do with this set of programs.

 

Much appreciated! If the ISY is as user friendly as this forum has been I should have it programmed and up-and-running in short order. I look forward to checking out your work-around and all the ISY INSTEONing fun ahead.

 

You commented “virtually no recurring date function that you can't doâ€. I have a few actions which change for a period of time or a “date range†of a day or week, up to several months. Think you may have provided me with just the tool. Hope UDI can incorporate this feature into the system soon. Be well and hope to stay in touch.

[woodchip]

Woodchip; Smartlabs Inc. {manufacturing company} and Smarthome Inc. {sales company}. Same physical address independent corporations. Chose to use the X10 preset dim commands and not Extended X10 Messaging. The PLM does not support Extended X10 messaging at all.

Read Michel's reply in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=8662

 

I have tried Insteon modules with X10 address added and the older 2000 series X10 only modules. In AHP. Since they only used Preset Dim or the old full On and stream down with dim commands. They where not completely compatible.

 

The other way also was not 100%. Using the older Smarthome 1132CU X10 controller with Smarthome Manager Essentials. The Preset dim commands would not work on X10 modules that can use extended X10 messaging.

 

If you are not going to be using X10 devices with extended messaging then it should not be a problem.

 

Brian, you’ve been very helpful. I'll read Michel’s post soon. Prior to joining this forum (on Saturday) I called UDI’s 818 line and left my phone # and e@. I got an e from Mr. Kohanim stamped Sunday @ 1:01a… I am IMPRESSES! In a world where I call my own departments helpdesk the “helpless desk†it is truly a surprise and pleasure to experience that STYLE of customer service!

 

I don’t think the X10 extended message issue will be much of a problem for me by I need to get my feet wet with the ISY, GUI and PLM combo. I also think I should cough-up the additional $30 for the PRO upgrade… seems like there are several enhancements/features that deployment will unlock. Hope to have additional opportunities to chat with you in the future; you’re a value added asset to any forum.

[bipto]

@woodchip

 

For what it's worth I can offer the perspective of an Insteon / UDI noob...

 

After doing a fair amount of research, I started my home automation quest from scratch in February of this year with the 99i and 3 dimmers. In the months leading to present have built out to 30+ devices and an Elk M1G panel integrated in to the mix. The technology works well and my wife and I have come to trust in it and depend on it. Throughout this project I have never had to contact SmartLabs support. The players on this forum are knowledgeable, responsive and patient - I have yet to encounter a question for which an answer could not be found or solicited here.

 

And now that I am basically "finished" with the original scope of my project, I find myself lurking here daily gleaning knowledge and ideas for future expansion... No regrets!

 

--Bill

[woodchip]

First I will preface my remarks here with this statement; the members and resources I have communicated with and read in this forum have, I believe, been honest and sincere. However, I think I’ve made a $300+ mistake by trusting vague answers to questions I’ve asked in this forum and others. And believing Smarthomes’ (endorsed by some folks here in the forum) blatantly deceptive marketing claims, or at best “hedging on deceptive†claims stating;

 

“X10 Ready

If you've already started putting together a X10 home control network, INSTEON's backwards compatibility with X10 devices provides a painless upgrade path to an INSTEON network for the ultimate home automation system. Get the reliability and speed you need without scraping your existing X10 network.†(Source: http://www.smarthome.com/INSTEON_basics.html)

 

Either I have received defective equipment or INSTEON is simply NOT (as stated) “backwards compatibility with X10 devicesâ€! One may be able to state “honestly†that INSTEON is somewhat compatible with some X10 products. My experience is that X10 “compatibility†is roughly 30-50% based on the 35+ X10 devices I own. That includes a mix of X10 devices from both X10 and Leviton all of which are 100% X10 compatible! Given the research I carried out prior to any Smarthome/ISY purchase I assumed a 75-80% compatibility outcome… which I think would be reasonable.

 

I have spent hours researching INSTEON and ISY as a practical replacement for X10, I have now spent hours testing my current Smarthome/ISY purchase and researching how to best interface the systems… to my great disappointment after days of research and the ISY powered on for a week with no scheduled programmed events to perform I find its power supply has failed.

 

This only leads me to 1 of 2 conclusions;

 

 The INSTEON X10 compatibility claim is false and the INSTEON system and products are shoddier (being overpriced) than X10… or

 I have received defective equipment

 

Neither conclusion inspires me to continue down the INSTEON/ISY path. I’m sorry folks but you’re far too expensive to be this wrong with your marketing and this inferiority with your product.

 

A very dissatisfied new customer,

 

woodchip

[C Martin]

I was a true believer and user of X10 for many years. I thought the cost was where it needed to be at the time. My cost valuation was based on what was available commercially. The cost per point was pretty fantastic. That was based on the X10 production infrastructure that was second to none. They were rolling out X10 Devices like rice. It was a very favorable system for homeowners at the time.

The problem was - the technology became obsolete. As the world grew with more computers and power supplies for these devices that zapped the X10 signals, this problem of obsolescence just kept on growing. A new printer placed in you computer infrastructure would cause unexpected problems with the X10 system. So much so, that they are out of production. They even knew that the end was coming.

In my initial implementation of Insteon and ISY, I purchased the X10 module for the Universal Devices ISY. This worked for me for the time of transition. My initial implementation to Insteon and testing with existing X10 devices worked fine for me - after all My X10 devices were on the track to eventually being phased out. I had X10 repeaters on my system to make up for the X10 shortcomings with signal processing. In my way of thinking, using X10, especially these days, is kin to running Windows ME. A totally obsolete system.

As for cost - You can't buy a car these days for the same price that you would have in the 1970's. Yes I would like the cost to be less expensive, but I do look at the benefits of using a working Protocol. I have good flexibility in being able to have dynamic and flexible programs that can do most of the things that I want. Yes, I want more features but I can be patient and wait for more features.

I am sorry that you are disappointed with this technology, but I for one am happy with what we have and what we look forward to. If I were faced with this decision all over again, I would still choose this course and have recomended it to others.

Good Luck in your search for a better system. I know for a fact that there will be other systems coming in the future and with more capabilities, that is the nature of technology.

[ISYhbsh01]

Woodchip,

 

I was never an X-10 user so I don't know anything about Insteon's X-10 compatibility. Still I feel your pain as I went thru a somewhat similar frustration when I tried Z-Wave (see my post here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=70276#p70276).

 

With that being said I must clarify: UDI, the manufacturer of the ISY has nothing to do with Smarthome or their marketing. The ISY is an outstanding product with even more outstanding & unparalleled solid customer support. Off course the ISY is built to interface with Insteon technology products which is manufactured by Smarthome. But to blame UDI for Smarthome's shortcomings and call the ISY an inferior product would be unfair and inaccurate.

 

I believe Insteon is still the best choice out there so far. I do wish you good luck in whichever technology you decide to adapt.

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello woodchip,

 

I am so very sorry to hear about the power supply. I think we have already responded to your ticket and a power supply shall be mailed to you as soon as we verify that power supply is the only problem.

 

As far as X10/INSTEON, please do let our tech support team walk you through some sample programs and the things you can do with your ISY, INSTEON, and X10.

 

Again, sincere apologies and with kind regards,

Michel

[woodchip]

While I would like to respond to every reply in this topic individually I simply do not have enough time to do so. I would like to be spending my spare time programming my ISY so suffice it to say I am appreciative of all responses here (at least most of them).

 

That said, I can’t help but comment on C Martin’s car analogy. Clarence, I’d rather be driving a well maintained, although obsolete, 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass than a defective 2013 Chevy Volt. My X10 system is running adequately I’m just being proactive by attempting to migrate now rather than later. Cost is not the primary issue if the system I move to performs as advertised. I am currently not encountering a positive experience in this respect with my ISY.

 

I’ve not been able to find much information detailing the correct scripting for the ISY running X10 devices nor have I seen many programming examples. What I am seeing are X10 power-line commands being sent from an X10 transceiver (which can be) plugged into the same outlet as the PLM (or other outlet on the same leg of the split phase) and the X10 commands not being reported in the “Event Viewer (Level 3)†on the ISY. While those same X10 commands are being received by a CM15A on a different leg of the split phase and properly reported on the AHP “Activity Monitorâ€. I’m talking basic “on†and “off†X10 unit commands nothing fancy here. What am I doing wrong? Is my ISY or PLM defective? Why did the ISY power supply fail in less than a week with no scheduled programs running on the ISY (the ISY was essentially just idling)? The ISY power supply was plugged into a rack mounted APC UPS and the PLM into a receptacle less than 2 foot from the breaker in the distribution box … it just doesn’t make sense.