A new 2441TH issue

[MWareman]

New as in I cannot find any reference to this issue in the forum so far.

 

My ISY 994 is at 3.3.3 - confirmed in in the client both for firmware and UI.

 

I removed the 2441TH - did a reset on it - made sure it was 'Off' and re-added it to the ISY.

 

I can control the 2441TH just fine - changes on the ISY get reflected fairly quickly on the 2441TH.

When I change the 2441TH - the changes get reflected in the ISY.

 

The problem I have is that the 2441TH seems to randomly change modes. This morning, I set it to 'Heat' and the setpoint to 70 via the ISY.

Just now - I felt cold. I looked at the ISY and it reported the 2441TH was in 'Cool' mode with the setpoint at 80! On top of that - the 'energy saver' mode was enabled.

 

Wow. I set the mode back to heat.

 

This seems to happen every day or so - but to different modes. Sometimes the setpoint just changes - or the mode changes - or both. In all cases - the ISY and 2441TH stay in sync (they both change). How do I figure out where the change is coming from - the ISY or do I have a faulty 2441TH that is just 'messing up'?

 

Right now - I have removed the 2441TH from my ISY so it's stand alone to see if it's config changes.

 

Michael.

[LeeG]

Look at the ISY Log. It should show changes in mode and whether the change originated at the device or by the ISY (would have to be an ISY Program).

 

EDIT: these are Log entries as I pressed the Mode button on my 2441TH

 

2441TH - Main Thermostat Mode Auto Thu 2012/11/01 08:45:50 PM System Log

2441TH - Main Thermostat Mode Off Thu 2012/11/01 08:46:06 PM System Log

2441TH - Main Thermostat Mode Heat Thu 2012/11/01 08:46:10 PM System Log

2441TH - Main Thermostat Mode Cool Thu 2012/11/01 08:46:31 PM System Log

[MWareman]

Been away for a while. I managed to keep my 2441TH in check with a simple program:

 

Repeat Every 15 minutes

Set 'Thermostat - Main' Mode Heat

Set 'Thermostat - Main' 70° (Heat Setpoint)

Set 'Thermostat - Main' 77° (Cool Setpoint)

 

Today, I got to looking at it again. Still having big issues.

 

Here is my short process this morning:

 

At 8am, I disabled all programs on the ISY.

At 8:08 - I manually set the mode to 'Heat' and the setpoint to 70.

At 8:40 I checked - it was still mode 'Heat' and 70. Good.

At 8:43 - for some reason the thermo changed to mode 'Cool - and the heat turned off.

I noticed this at 9:18. I disabled 'leaf' mode, set 'Heat' and the setpoint back to 70. (9:18:02)

9:18:37, leaf mode turned on again and system turned to mode 'off' (I saw the display change this time!).

9:19:35 I reset system again.

 

Here is the log from the ISY:

 

Thermostat - Main Heat Setpoint 70° Fri 2012/11/23 08:08:57 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Status 67.5° Fri 2012/11/23 08:09:42 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Status 68.5° Fri 2012/11/23 08:15:16 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Status 69° Fri 2012/11/23 08:22:55 AM System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status On Fri 2012/11/23 08:42:37 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat/Cool State Heat On Fri 2012/11/23 08:42:37 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat Setpoint 66° Fri 2012/11/23 08:43:12 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Cool Setpoint 77° Fri 2012/11/23 08:43:13 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Thermostat Mode Cool Fri 2012/11/23 08:43:14 AM System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status Off Fri 2012/11/23 08:43:19 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat/Cool State Off Fri 2012/11/23 08:43:19 AM System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status On Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:02 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat/Cool State Heat On Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:02 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat Setpoint 70° Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:04 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Cool Setpoint 73° Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:05 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Thermostat Mode Heat Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:07 AM System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status Off Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:37 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat/Cool State Off Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:37 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat Setpoint 66° Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:39 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Cool Setpoint 77° Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:40 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Status 68.5° Fri 2012/11/23 09:18:51 AM System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status On Fri 2012/11/23 09:19:35 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat/Cool State Heat On Fri 2012/11/23 09:19:35 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Heat Setpoint 70° Fri 2012/11/23 09:19:37 AM System Log

Thermostat - Main Cool Setpoint 73° Fri 2012/11/23 09:19:38 AM System Log

 

Clearly - *something* is changing the thermostat into 'Energy Efficiency' or 'Leaf' mode, as well as changing the heat/cool mode. I have no programs running. Nothing shows up in the error log for the time period.

 

I asked Smarthome - who tell me 'It sounds as if you have a program within the ISY that is causing this error. "Leaf mode" is an energy saving mode that automatically reduces your high end temperature to save energy. Occasionally this mode can be inadvertently triggered within the ISY.'

 

Honestly - I'm not sure if I believe that. It's not just leaf mode being triggered - but the thermostat changes from 'Heat' to 'Cool' mode (or off) as well.

 

Here is the 'Links' table from the 2441TH:

 

Device Links Table : Thermostat - Main / 1D 6D CB 1

0

8184

226

239

1833911

16719855

1

8176

226

1

1833911

16719617

2

8168

226

2

1833911

16719618

3

8160

0

0

0

0

 

This table matches what the ISY thinks should be there.

 

I have gone thru all the programs on the ISY. Nothing is touching the 2441TH.

 

So - where to look. How can I find out what is doing this? Is this command being initiated from a faulty 2441TH? How can I tell, conclusively, that it's a faulty 2441TH and not a faulty ISY or something else entirely?

 

I'm at 3.3.4 (both firmware and UI).

 

michael.

[MWareman]

Oh - another question. It seems I cannot enable or disable energy saving mode from a program - or query for it's current status. I also cannot program what the setback is for energy saving mode - as Smarthome seems to suggest should be possible thru software (since they provide no way to set it thru the UI of the device).

 

Is it possible to add this to the software? It's rather an important feature of the thermostat that's simply configurable right now thru the ISY.

 

Michael.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Michael,

 

The first thing is to make sure your thermostat is operating properly (which is not). If you are certain that you do not have any programs in ISY contributing to automatic changes you see, then it's best to get a replacement for it.

 

With respect to SmartHome's comment that ISY may inadvertently do things, well, if that were the case then it would not be isolated to SmartHome brand thermostats.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

Michel,

 

I fully agree with you. I don't think it's possible for the ISY to do what I have been seeing out of the thermostat.

 

I spent some time on the phone with Smarthome today - and it looks like I'm seeing things that simply shouldn't be happening - including having the thermostat spontaneously change from 'Heat' to 'Cool' when I turned off 'Leaf' mode. The two just shouldn't be linked - so we think it's very likely that the root cause if a bad thermostat. They are cross-shipping me a new one. Hopefully, that will resolve the issue - I don't see why not.

 

Do you know if there are any plans to be able to enable, disable and poll the 'Leaf' or 'Energy Saver' mode that the thermostat has? Currently - there is no way to tell within the UI of the ISY. I'll be asking MobiLinc as well - since I'd like to see the current energy mode there as well.

 

Thanks,

 

Michael.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks so very much for the update.

 

As of right now, we do not have any plans since we have not yet been able to get things stabilized enough.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

Hi Michel,

 

What a drama. Smarthome replaced my 2441TH with a new unit. I replaced it and.... had exactly the same issues as I did with the old one.

 

I began having one of those 'feeling' that it is a power related issue (the 2441TH was getting it's power from my HVAC control board) and every time the HVAC fan turns on it caused a voltage dip (or spike) enough to trigger random happenings on the thermostat. So - I picked myself up a 24VAC transformer from radio shack and wired that to supply the thermostat with power. It completely solved my random changes (heat/cool/set points) - it's not happened once since. I figured that if anyone else gets into random changes - they should possibly look at the power supply as a potential source. IMO - Smart Home need to do better with the power circuitry in the 2441TH - but that's another story.

 

However, the issue I have of the thermostat going into 'energy saving setback' (or 'leaf') mode still happens. Usually - but not always - it's overnight. Smart Home are pretty insistent that the ISY is doing this thru an incomplete or improper I2CS implementation on the ISY - and I have no way to refute them. I don't have access to their documentation for the thermostat to know - so I'm hoping you can give me more to go on regarding this. Is this possible?

 

I either need to change the setback to 0 degrees (since I'd implement a setback in the ISY anyway) or have the ISY read and be able to set the energy saving mode properly. Not sure where to go since I cannot do this in the ISY at all. I think I'm going to reinstall the HouseLinc software (I still have the HouseLinc PLM from the days before my ISY enlightening) and see if I can change the setback to 0 at least to minimize the effect of the issue.

 

Any other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Michael.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Michael,

 

The best way to test this is to disable all programs in ISY that do anything to your thermostat. If there are NO programs in ISY, then ISY cannot be doing anything to the thermostat on its own.

 

If disabling your programs stops the intermittent changes to your thermostats, then please do send us your programs and we'll surely take a look and, in case of a bug, fix it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

I tried that - and thought it worked around the issue. But it just came back.. Setpoint was 71 and heat turned on (23:19:46). Few seconds later - the setpoint changed to 67. How can I find out what is going on here - it's driving me nuts. I *really* need the ability to have the ISY read the current state of energy saving mode - and be able to adjust the setback. Can this at least be on the wish list?

 

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status On Sun 2012/12/23 23:19:46 System Log

Thermostat Heat/Cool State Heat On Sun 2012/12/23 23:19:46 System Log

Thermostat Status 69.5° Sun 2012/12/23 23:19:49 System Log

Thermostat - Heat Ctl Status Off Sun 2012/12/23 23:20:21 System Log

Thermostat Heat/Cool State Off Sun 2012/12/23 23:20:21 System Log

Thermostat Heat Setpoint 67° Sun 2012/12/23 23:20:24 System Log

Thermostat Cool Setpoint 79° Sun 2012/12/23 23:20:25 System Log

 

I also noticed during the time the 2441TH was connected to HomeLinc - there are two more nodes there than are exposed thru ISY - in addition to 'Heat Ctl' and 'Cool Ctl' there are nodes for 'Humidify' and 'Dehumidify' based on the humidity setpoints relation to the measured humidity. Is this not implemented in ISY or is it planned?

 

For the time being - I think I just have to continue my brute force program - simply set the temp to 71 every time it's not 71.. seems excessive but it's the only way to have a consistent temp in the house - something that should be a basic feature that SmartHome is just ignoring. I guess buyer beware.

 

Thanks,

 

Michael.

[Michel Kohanim]

Michael,

 

We need to stay focused! There are thing you "wish" to have and then there are things that are "not working". Let's figure out what's "not working" first.

 

So, you DISABLED all your programs and the set point still changes on its own, correct? If so, why don't we get SmartHome to fix it first? Once the ghost syndrome is resolved, we'll investigate your suggested enhancements.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

Sounds reasonable. Just getting frustrated with the way SmartHome is handling issues with this device - generally be ignoring them. I just want it to stay at the temperature setpoint that I want..

 

I will reiterate this from earlier communications. An email from Danny Fehskens @ SmartHome support I received on November 14th stated:

 

""Leaf mode" is an energy saving mode that automatically reduces your high end temperature to save energy. Occasionally this mode can be inadvertently triggered within the ISY."

 

I'd really like to know how this is even possible - or how he comes to this conclusion. They squarely seem to think it's an ISY issue - especially now that they have RMAd the original device and my replacement is doing the same thing.

 

I'm OK at the moment with this program to work around the issue:

 

If

Status 'Thermostat' is not 71° (Heat Setpoint)

Then

Set 'Thermostat' 71° (Heat Setpoint)

 

Seems ridiculous that I need to do that. From the log I can see it reset 3 times last night. Crazy. No correlation to other timings at all - 23:56, 23:57 and 0:50. Nothing else seems to run at that time - and since then it's been solid (now 10:43).

 

My feeling is that it just has to be a bad device - again. However, I find it really hard to believe that nobody else is seeing this - I'm on my second device now both displaying the same issue. How am I to convince SmartHome that it's a second bad device?

 

How can I find out if the 2441 is enabling the setback mode in response to an Insteon command - or if it's 'spontaneously' doing it without any command? Are there any debugging tools or analysis I can do?

 

Thanks,

 

Michael.

[LeeG]

In the early days of the Venstar thermostat Smarthome declared the ISY responsible for a series of issues related to the Insteon interface. They were just as sure, just as positive then as the individual at Smarthome talking to you now. Of course they were wrong. Because many people use the ISY of course the symptoms appeared with the ISY first. Eventually the same symptoms appeared with users who did not use an ISY. Hard to continue to blame the ISY when the users did not have one. Eventually SmartLabs built free replacement units with several fixes and RMAed the defective ones.

 

Of course that does not help with what you are encountering. Only that just because they say ISY is responsible does not mean it is. They do not have a good track record.

[Brian H]

I have also seen Smarthome and Smartlabs stick their head in the sand and blame everyone else for their problems.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks so very much for that snippet. I am going to forward it to our contact at SmartHome and hopefully we'll find a resolution.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RichTJ99]

I am glad I passed on a purchase of the 2441TH but I would like to get one once it works properly. Do the Venistars work 100%?

[NHWA]

I have two of the new insteon thermostats and have noticed the same problems. The thermostats randomly enter into energy saver or "leaf" mode. I have no programs in ISY for the thermostat but the thermostat is linked to ISY. I spoke with smarthome today and they said they did have a few issues with this but that they haven't had any issues with anyone running the newest RC/beta for ISY. I just updated to RC 3.3.7 (RC4) to see if that resolves the issue.

 

If this doesn't work, I'll try delinking the thermostats for a week and see if they still have the same problem.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello NHWA,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. I can tell you immediately that there's nothing in the beta that would fix this issue. In any case, please do keep us posted.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MWareman]

@NHWA

 

You said: "I spoke with smarthome today and they said they did have a few issues with this but that they haven't had any issues with anyone running the newest RC/beta for ISY"

 

I hate to say this - but based on my communication with SmartHome they may have lied to you (or, at the very least, misled you). I'm on 3.3.7 since the day it came out - and I reported back to SmartHome that the 'leaf' issue is still present the day after I upgraded to it. So - they *do* know that there is at least one person with the left mode issue 'on the latest RC/beta'. they keep pointing the finger of blame at the ISY - but have failed to acknowledge my tests that confirm the leaf issue still happens when the link table is empty (immediately after a factory reset of the thermostat). It's getting frustrating to be sure.

 

I truly don't believe they would lie like that. It's probably more likely that either my case was not updated with this information - or the tech that responded to you didn't actually bother to check before the statement was issued - but I do want it on record that on 3.3.7 the left issue is still present. It's present without a connection to the ISY. I just don't believe it's an ISY issue at all to be honest. It feels bad to say - but I am somewhat happy that others have now reported the same issue. It means it's not just me and (hopefully) should add additional priority to the issue - I hope.

 

Michael.

[SteveL]

I can tell you that my experience with the 2441TH has not resulted in the thermostat changing modes or going into energy mode. I have had the same one in for 5 months not and I have tested two others in one other location. There was an issue with the temp being off by a couple of degrees based on the placement of the thermistor. This issue has been fixed. I'm not suggesting that it isn't happening to others but it is not systemic to all of the thermostats from what I see. We have 26 of them in our building and they do not exhibit this behavior.

 

I will have our QC manger take another look at this.

 

Regards,

 

Steve Lee

INSTEON

[NHWA]

Ok here is an update. I updated the ISY and the problem kept happening. I then completely removed the thermostats from the ISY and had the same problem with them going into energy/leaf mode randomly. I called smarthome again today since I was worried that there is something wrong with all of the thermostats since it would seem to be really bad luck for two thermostats ordered to be both defective. Apparently, they have had some issues with thermostats made in the batch I ordered.

 

I now have two more thermostats on the way. I will say that smarthome needs some serious work on how they handle these issues unless they want to return to the paddle problem days that made people stay away from insteon. Telling me it was the ISY off the bat was not appropriate. Not notifying everyone who ordered those thermostats that there was an issue was not appropriate. Making me pay for two new thermostats and then having to apply for a refund when I send these back so I don't have to put my old thermostats back up is not appropriate--especially since I am still waiting on my refund for the last defective item from lst month.

 

I'll let everyone know if these two new thermostats work but since I've now had to replace a light switch, garage door opener, and two thermostats (out of around 30 items ordered), I do wonder about smarthome's quality checks of their items. It may be time to pause these purchases for a few months until they can straighten things out.

[MWareman]

I will have our QC manger take another look at this.

Thanks Steve. If there is *any* info I can provide to assist - I am more than willing to do so.

I think the issue is in the power circuits to be honest - when I powered the 2441TH from my HVAC - I would randomly get the stat changing setpoints, mode and leaf mode. I added a 24VAC transformer to power the 2441TH - and only the left mode symptom remains.

 

This indicates to me there is a sensitivity to noise on the power lines. Perhaps that will give your engineering an area to look at. Perhaps this is also the reason some people have issues - and others do not, and why my replacement unit had the same problems as the original.

 

Michael.

[NHWA]

Another update. I received my two new insteon thermostats. Unfortunately, the exact same problem is present. The thermostats randomly enter energy saver/leaf mode and change the temp settings.

 

I also noticed that I did a review of the thermostats on smarthome describing the energy saver problem I was having and it was up for one day and then removed. My guess is that this is a more widespread problem than smarthome acknowledges.

 

Anyone know if the new Zwave add on being worked on for the ISY will support any z wave thermostats and if those would be accessible with mobilinc?

[MikeD]

NHWA: I see your review at Smarthome, it is still there.

~Mike

[MWareman]

Another update. I received my two new insteon thermostats. Unfortunately, the exact same problem is present. The thermostats randomly enter energy saver/leaf mode and change the temp settings.

 

Same issue I'm still having with my replacement thermostat. I really wish SmartHome could figure it out.

 

Michael.

 

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