220V / 240V 30 AMP INSTEON Load Controller Issues

[flsenior]

I have 2 Insteon Load Controllers Normally Closed Relay 2477SA2, installed on the same circuit. Each of them is controling separate pool motors. This installation was made by a licensed electrician. I have had a different electrician check the installation after I experienced failure issues.

 

The Insteon relays fail within a few months and sometimes weeks after installation. The relay "freezes" into a position that prevents turning off the motor unless the circuit power is turned off at the panel box. The manual power button on the Insteon relay will not operate.

 

Smarthome has replaced these relays under warranty. However I am trying to find a resource to help me resolve the root cause of the failures (assuming that there is something in my power supply). I have about 25 Insteon switches in my house and they have all operated for 6-36 months without a failure. At the same time I have replaced the 220/240 Load Controllers 5 times in 9 months.

 

I have had no known power supply issues to the house nor have I experienced and failures of any electronic device during the past 5-8 years.

[LeeG]

What HP are the motors? It sounds like the motors are generating a spike when they are started that either is fusing the N/C relay contacts or damaging the electronics. The starting current of a motor can be a good deal higher than the running current.

[ELA]

Hello Flsenior,

 

As LeeG has said motors draw a much larger current at start up. When a relays contacts are not properly sized for this "inrush or startup" current they can "weld" such that the only way to turn the load off is to remove input power.

 

I did a quick review of that products specifications and failed to see where they list what HP they can drive? Did I just miss it or is it not listed? Smartlab's specifications are often lacking.

In the docs I read they seem to talk heavily about water heaters as loads, that is way different than a motor.

 

I will reserve saying any more just in case I missed where they state that that product can drive a certain HP or heavily inductive loads?

[flsenior]

Each motor is 1HP, 6amp, 230V. They are both on the same circuit with a 30 amp breaker.

[Brian H]

I looked at the FCC Database Photos for the ID SBP2477SA. They removed the relays part numbers or they where on the sides of the relay. So we can't get a clue from them either. Sometimes I get lucky and the markings on parts are visible.

[flsenior]

The motors are Marathon Electric Model C1245

 

Stock Number C1245

HP 1

RPM 3450

Volts 115/230

Max Amps 12.2/6.1

Service Factor 1.25

[Xathros]

flsenior-

 

The solution may be to drive a heavy duty contactors with Appliancelincs thus isolating the heavy loads from the appliancelincs.

 

-Xathros

[Brian H]

Since the 2477SA2 is Normally Closed. You have to turn it On to turn Off the pumps power.

It may not be the relays getting fused closed. It could also be the electronics being damaged by an inductive kick and not controlling the two relays one for each switched Line. That way it would default to the pumps On.

Can't tell if there is a snubber network on the relays contacts from the FCC photos.

 

Does the unit have any LEDs on it that are also acting strange?

If none are working. Could be the modules power supply has failed.

 

I saw you post on the Smarthome Forums. Will be interesting what the folks over there think.

[flsenior]

The power button on the front does not operate. I can make the other LEDs blink if I do a factory reset. The reset does not made the controller operational.

 

I have posted and written ever place I can find in an effort to get Smarthome/Smartlabs look at the issue. I keep asking them to examine the returned units and give me some feedback. To date they have declined, prefering instead to pay for warranty exchanges. I am grateful for the exchanges but also see mutual benefit if we can find the root cause of the issue.

[Brian H]

They probably are looking at them but will not publicly say what they found.

Quietly a new hardware revision will be released with no data on what was changed.

Not even to us in the Developers Group.

 

A search of the Smarthome Forums for the key word 2477SA2 found a few others having problems with the module and the 2477SA1 NO version.

http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.as ... ms=2477SA2

[ELA]

I saw where you posted that you loose all communications with the units? And the manual control button does not work.

That then no longer sounds like the output relays.

 

Are these units in a very warm area? Exposed to greater than 122F in the summer months?

 

What distance of cable is between the Controller and the motor?

[flsenior]

The units are protected and should not exceed 120 degrees.

 

The distance from the controller to the motor is approx 3 ft for 1 motor and approx 3.5 ft for the other motor. Cable in this context is electrical wiring. I don't know the gauge but it was installed by a licensed electrician.

[LeeG]

The motor manufacturer chart indicates 14 gauge is acceptable out to 100' or 150' when supplied with 240v.

 

Do you have the defective unit? The Smarthome posts indicate component damage is visible if the cover is removed.

[ELA]

3 -3.5ft is a very short distance between the controller and the motor.

The reason I asked is not over a question of voltage drop or wire gauge but instead the concept already mentioned of inductive kick ( transients generated at the relay when the load turned off).

 

If transients are occurring, and there is no built-in protection ( MOVs or snubber) for the relays, then that could be a possible cause. Transients of large enough amplitude can wipe out the electronics ( depending upon the design).

In these cases a longer cable distance between the controller and load can be advantageous.

I am not saying that you should increase the cable length, just confirming that your short cable length is probably no help in suppressing the transients.

 

If your electrician has access to a power line monitor or oscilloscope he can monitor the line during turn off for transients.

If not then you might consider adding an MOV/snubber combination at the controller ( in an assumption there is none built-in).

 

Short of getting a fault analysis done maybe Smartlabs would answer the question as to what the unit is rated for in terms of inductive loads and whether or not there is an internal snubber.

Worth a try if you have not already but I do not have high hopes.

 

From what I have read it sound like the unit is pretty much totally dead? If not you could consider removing the motor load and seeing if you get any communications relies.

 

I get suspect when all the pertinent specifications are not listed. Might be time to try a different approach. As has been already mentioned using an appliancelinc to drive a contactor.

 

Here is an example of the type of specifications I would expect for a device made to handle a heavier (inductive) load. ( only included for a ref to specifications and to question why Smartlabs does not provide similar)

 

http://www.smarthome.com/25114/Intermatic-P4243ME-Pool-and-Spa-Valve-Pump-Switch/p.aspx

[ELA]

Hi Brian,

I just followed your link to the other thread on this at Smarthome. I found your thoughts there very interesting. I then went to the fcc site ( looks like they changed the address slightly).

 

I viewed the pictures of this unit. The large brown/red caps look like the caps used to couple/decouple the Insteon signal onto the AC line. Similar caps I have seen inside other Insteon units were 250VDC rated when being used on 120VAC ( 170V peak).

 

I wonder if they might be having an issue with under rated caps since this is a 240V ( 340V peak) unit ?

Can't read any values in the pictures?

[Brian H]

Yes the FCC sites link did change.

I had to update my Favorites entry for it.

Not sure what the modules problems are but suspect someone will get a new revision hardware controller. With updates in them.

[flsenior]

Well...... That remains to be seen. The current "dead" relay was installed 10/5/12. I wonder if an update has happened in the past 30 days.

 

I am scheduled to get my replacement tomorrow. So far I don't have a real handle on the root cause of the issue. Nevertheless I will install the replacement unit into the same failure prone environment and hope that doing the same thing over and over will somehow produce different results.

[Brian H]

Hope it works out better for you this time.

You may want to look at the stickers on it and note the hardware revision number.

[flsenior]

My other controller has not stopped working. Pump runs all of the time and the only way to shut it off is to remove all power at the circuit breaker. I had an electrician look at the circuit last week. He found no issues. The controllers only last 2-3 months. I have yet to receive a y feedback from Smarthome or Smartlabs. I sent them a pleading letter but no response.

[ELA]

Flsenior,

Please clarify what your issue is. Did you get a replacement and is it working ok or are you saying a new replacement now has the same issues as the last unit it replaced?

Yet one of two units you had has been working fine all along?

[flsenior]

I have two units both of which have been replaced 3-4 times in the past year. Unit #1 was last replaced two weeks ago and it is currently operating. Unit #2 was replaced about 2 months ago and now it is not responding.

 

In all cases the controllers "lock" in the on position and can't be turned off unless power is cut at the circuit breaker.

[ELA]

Thanks for the clarification,

 

As was mentioned earlier in these postings it is probably time to consider another method without using the failing devices. Since SH will not respond to your requests and you continue to have failures what other options do you have?

 

I am assuming this latest failed device is totally unresponsive like earlier descriptions? Since they default to ON ( normally closed relay) it could be a lack of response to commands ( communications issue) but I think you indicated earlier that they had other symptoms that made it appear the microcontroller might not be running? ( power button on front does not work?).

 

While there are tests that could be done to help better understand the failure mode I am not sure it would help your situation. As I stated earlier you could add some transient protection devices on an assumption that transients from motor turn off are the issue. This would of course be via trial and error and time consuming unless you had an electrician monitor the power line.

[flsenior]

Today I was browsing the Smarthome forum @Smarthome.com. I noticed a posting which stated that a pool pump, which is normally not running, should be on a load controller normally OPEN. My pumps are operating with normally CLOSED controllers. I wonder if this is the cause of the continued controller failures? My latest unit lasted 6 weeks.

[LeeG]

Should not make any difference. Choosing NO or NC is a matter of whether power should be supplied to the load should the device fail. Something like controlling power to a hot water heater would often be done with a NC. If the device fails the hot water heater continues to have power. Switching to NO would result in the pumps not running at all should the Load Controller fail.

 

Some relay contacts carry a different rating for the NO contacts versus the NC contacts. Simplehomenet had a 30 Amp Load Controller with NO contacts rated at 30 Amp, the NC contacts were rated at 20 Amps. Of course this was all spelled out in the published specs. Since Smarthome has not made any differentiation between rating of NO versus NC I have to assume both contacts are rated for 30 amps. The SHN 30 Amp Load Controller is no longer being marketed.

[ELA]

I have been wondering why you used a normally closed unit for a pool? I believe the recommended is Normally open for a pool since it runs less often.

 

I do not believe it would be why yours fails however. For a water heater use it would be wired normally closed and I would not expect it to fail earlier because of it. You would want the heater to fail ON however as opposed to a pool pump I would think you would want off on failure?

 

I was just looking over the manual once again. Did you see page 3 of 14 under:

Key features it states, " Controls high voltage appliances up to 240V, 30A, split single phase, (resistive loads only)"

 

Based on that specification it should not be used for a large motor which is an inductive load.

SH should have told you that??? I would call them and ask why the specification says that? Is it recommended to run a large motor (inductive load)?

 

I suspect not and that is why they fail all the time.