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Can't get the virtual 3 way to work?


jeff000

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I replaced a three way with two dimmers, and used the ISY99 instructions to get the programmed switch to be a 3 way.

 

And for some reason it just does not work. The one switch works like a normal 3 way, but the other end (the programmed one) can only turn the lights off.

I can not figure out what I did wrong.

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I was thinking perhaps your wiring was wrong, but that sounds not to be the case. I'm not sure how you could have crossed linked the 2 switches and accidentally changed the on level to zero, but as Lee suggested, that needs to be checked. If both switches turn the light on from the off position, but once there, only one switch turns the light off once on, I can't think of any other possibilities.

 

From ISY "main" page, find the scene on the left side tree. Click on it. You should see the 2 switches "on level" and "ramp rate" listed in the right pane at the bottom of the screen (they are sliders). Be certain that both switches list the "on level" to be correct (this is your choice, but for the purpose of figuring this out, I would set them to 100%).

 

Also, click directly on each of the 2 switches over in the tree on the left. You should see "applied locally" over in the right side pane next to that switch. Make sure it is also 100%. Do that for both switches in the scene.

 

The default is for all of those things to be 100%. So somehow you would have needed to accidentally change that for them to be different, but certainly possible for someone just learning this stuff.

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I was thinking perhaps your wiring was wrong, but that sounds not to be the case. I'm not sure how you could have crossed linked the 2 switches and accidentally changed the on level to zero, but as Lee suggested, that needs to be checked. If both switches turn the light on from the off position, but once there, only one switch turns the light off once on, I can't think of any other possibilities.

 

From ISY "main" page, find the scene on the left side tree. Click on it. You should see the 2 switches "on level" and "ramp rate" listed in the right pane at the bottom of the screen (they are sliders). Be certain that both switches list the "on level" to be correct (this is your choice, but for the purpose of figuring this out, I would set them to 100%).

 

Also, click directly on each of the 2 switches over in the tree on the left. You should see "applied locally" over in the right side pane next to that switch. Make sure it is also 100%. Do that for both switches in the scene.

 

The default is for all of those things to be 100%. So somehow you would have needed to accidentally change that for them to be different, but certainly possible for someone just learning this stuff.

 

If the lights are off, only Switch1 one will turn the lights on. Once the lights are on, switch2 can turn the lights off (so can switch1).

 

The on level is 100% and the ramp rate is 0 for both.

 

In the switch screen under Membership on the right they are both a controller and responded to my 3way scene.

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Is switch 2 the load? Do the LED's on the switch go up when you push it on? If switch 2 is the load (the one the actual light is connected to) and the "applied local" on level is 0 or something really low, this can happen. So be sure to check the "applied local" on level for that switch. The applied local setting can be found under the scene when you click on switch 2 under the scene on the tree in the left pane, or it is what you see when you click on the individual device.

 

If this doesn't answer your problem, try deleting the scene and re-build it from scratch.

 

If that doesn't work, try removing the devices from ISY completely and re-add them, then rebuild the scene.

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Is switch 2 the load? Do the LED's on the switch go up when you push it on? If switch 2 is the load (the one the actual light is connected to) and the "applied local" on level is 0 or something really low, this can happen. So be sure to check the "applied local" on level for that switch. The applied local setting can be found under the scene when you click on switch 2 under the scene on the tree in the left pane, or it is what you see when you click on the individual device.

 

If this doesn't answer your problem, try deleting the scene and re-build it from scratch.

 

If that doesn't work, try removing the devices from ISY completely and re-add them, then rebuild the scene.

 

Switch1 is the load.

 

Trying to delete the scene but my isy is not really responding.

I can say to delete it, and it asks me if I am sure. But it's not actually deleting it.

 

And when I close out and reopen a window opens "Insteon Finder" and has an IP address.

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You may just be having communication issues. Are these your first two switches? Do you have other switches that are working? What type of light are the switches controlling?

 

I have 9 other switches that work great. But this is my first 3 way attempt.

 

They are controlling five 9w LED potlights.

They are both dual band smarthome insteon dimmers, part number 2477D

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Do you have any troubles controlling the two switches independently from the ISY admin console? By independently, I mean when you select the switch itself, not the scene from the directory tree in the left hand pane of the main page of ISY.

 

How about if you select the scene? Do both switches turn on/off when you click on the scene in the left pane and then click the on/off at the bottom of the right pane?

 

If you turn on "event viewer" from the "tools/diagnostic" menu and set to level 3, it will show all the communications. You can copy that to the forum. LeeG is quite adept and interpreting those.

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Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.DB.4A 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [standard-Group][19.DB.4A-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [ 19 DB 4A 1] DON 0

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [ 19 DB 4A 1] ST 255

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.DB.4A 11.00.01 CB 06 00 (00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [standard-Group][19.DB.4A-->11.00.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] DOF 0

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] ST 0

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:36 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 13.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:36 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->13.01.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] DON 0

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] ST 255

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

 

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->11.01.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

 

 

This is turning the lights on with Switch1, turning the lights off with Switch2, and trying to turn the lights back on with Switch2 (The lights do not come on, but the switch's led's show it should be on).

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jeff000

 

The SwitchLincs are not linked together as far as the ISY is concerned.

 

Note the event trace below of two SwitchLincs that have been defined as Controllers of one ISY Scene. The first event represents pressing the On paddle on one of the SwitchLincs. Note that the ISY indicates two devices have turned On. Your trace shows only one SwitchLinc turning On.

 

 

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.23.6B 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [std-Group ] 1D.23.6B-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [ 1D 23 6B 1] DON 0

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [ 16 3F 93 1] ST 255

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [ 1D 23 6B 1] ST 255

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.23.6B 19.70.06 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [std-Cleanup ] 1D.23.6B-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:40 AM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored.

 

This is from pressing the Off paddle. Two SwitchLincs are marked as turning Off.

 

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:55 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.23.6B 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:55 AM : [std-Group ] 1D.23.6B-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:55 AM : [ 1D 23 6B 1] DOF 0

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:55 AM : [ 16 3F 93 1] ST 0

Fri 01/04/2013 01:23:55 AM : [ 1D 23 6B 1] ST 0

 

This is what the Scene definition should look like

 

post-973-140474157706_thumb.jpg

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Below is turning switch 1 on (19.DB.4A). There is no indication that your switch 2 turned on. You should see a ‘ST 255’ for the other switch indicating it turned on 100% (255 is full on). You see a DON for switch 1 indicating a ‘device on’ command was sent (you pushed the button) received by ISY, and a ST 255 message sent by switch 1 indicating that it had gone to full brightness status (255). But no ST 255 from switch 2 which would indicate that it didn’t turn on. The load is switch 1, so no surprise the light turned on. Did the led’s on switch 2 go up? I presume not since there is no indication of that here.

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.DB.4A 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [standard-Group][19.DB.4A-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [ 19 DB 4A 1] DON 0

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [ 19 DB 4A 1] ST 255

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.DB.4A 11.00.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:30 PM : [standard-Group][19.DB.4A-->11.00.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

 

Below is you turning off the switch 2 (19.D4.80). Similarly, there is no indication switch 1 did anything. But you seem to indicate that the actual light did shut off, so switch 1 did actually shut off?

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] DOF 0

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:35 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] ST 0

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:36 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 13.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:36 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->13.01.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

 

And finally here is you turning switch 2 back on. Again, no indication that switch 1 did anything, but you say the led's on the switch did go up? or do you mean the leds on switch 2 went up?

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] DON 0

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [ 19 D4 80 1] ST 255

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 19.D4.80 11.01.01 CB 06 00 (00)

Thu 01/03/2013 10:43:43 PM : [standard-Group][19.D4.80-->11.01.01] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

It would appear both switches are communicating fine with ISY and only using 1 hop each on their own. Perhaps LeeG could enlighten more?

 

Myself, I would start with the simple task of removing both switches from ISY, factory resetting them, adding them back to ISY, then recreate the scene.

 

EDIT: It looked like Lee did respond as I typed. Same conclusion. But I can't explain the fact that jef000 seems to be indicating the light did switch off when he pushed switch 2 even though the load is on switch 1 and there is no indication switch 1 did anything.

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apostolakisl

 

"can't explain the fact that jef000 seems to be indicating the light did switch off when he pushed switch 2 even though the load is on switch 1 and there is no indication switch 1 did anything."

 

There would be no Insteon indication of switch 1 doing anything since switch 2 is the Controller. The PLM would not pass communication between the two switches to the ISY. Marking the Responder switch Status On or Off is only because the ISY thinks they are linked. That is why I am sure the ISY does not think they are linked.

 

The result can happen if there is a half/broken link with a Responder On Level of 0%. Switch 1 would turn Off with the half/broken link but not turn On because of the 0% On Level. You could walk OP through the Show Device Links Table process for both devices to see what actually exists in the link database. If not the result of half/broken link then wiring of the first attempt at a 3-way is in question.

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apostolakisl

 

"can't explain the fact that jef000 seems to be indicating the light did switch off when he pushed switch 2 even though the load is on switch 1 and there is no indication switch 1 did anything."

 

There would be no Insteon indication of switch 1 doing anything since switch 2 is the Controller. The PLM would not pass communication between the two switches to the ISY. Marking the Responder switch Status On or Off is only because the ISY thinks they are linked. That is why I am sure the ISY does not think they are linked.

 

The result can happen if there is a half/broken link with a Responder On Level of 0%. Switch 1 would turn Off with the half/broken link but not turn On because of the 0% On Level. You could walk OP through the Show Device Links Table process for both devices to see what actually exists in the link database. If not the result of half/broken link then wiring of the first attempt at a 3-way is in question.

 

The wiring was my first thought, but seems to be OK by virtue of report that both switches never lose their LED's. I believe the OP is an electrician from another post he put up, so I suspect that he understood the wiring diagram and knew what is what.

 

So, I would re-iterate that the quickest and simplest thing to do at this point is delete the switches from ISY, factory reset them, re-add them to ISY, then rebuild the scene with both as controllers. This will rule out any half links with less work than doing a links table analysis.

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apostolakisl

 

"can't explain the fact that jef000 seems to be indicating the light did switch off when he pushed switch 2 even though the load is on switch 1 and there is no indication switch 1 did anything."

 

There would be no Insteon indication of switch 1 doing anything since switch 2 is the Controller. The PLM would not pass communication between the two switches to the ISY. Marking the Responder switch Status On or Off is only because the ISY thinks they are linked. That is why I am sure the ISY does not think they are linked.

 

The result can happen if there is a half/broken link with a Responder On Level of 0%. Switch 1 would turn Off with the half/broken link but not turn On because of the 0% On Level. You could walk OP through the Show Device Links Table process for both devices to see what actually exists in the link database. If not the result of half/broken link then wiring of the first attempt at a 3-way is in question.

 

The wiring was my first thought, but seems to be OK by virtue of report that both switches never lose their LED's. I believe the OP is an electrician from another post he put up, so I suspect that he understood the wiring diagram and knew what is what.

 

So, I would re-iterate that the quickest and simplest thing to do at this point is delete the switches from ISY, factory reset them, re-add them to ISY, then rebuild the scene with both as controllers. This will rule out any half links with less work than doing a links table analysis.

 

 

Yes I am an Electrician (going on 7 years). I opened it up to make sure I didn't do something silly.

Switch2 was a dead ended 3way, meaning just the 3 wire into the box.

 

I have a feeling that I am making the scene wrong. It visually looks the same as what Lee posted.

 

I create the scene, link management --> new scene. Then I drag the two devices into the scene, when the new window comes asking me what I want to do, I click controller for both.

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That is the correct way to make the Scene. Exactly how I made the test Scene I posted and traced.

 

The 3 wires going into the box, two were retasked to provide 120v unswitched power to that SwitchLinc and the third is capped?

 

Apostolakisl suggestion at the end of his last post ensures that the environment is clean, with no possibilities of something being left behind during the various iterations. If that does not result in correct operation then a detailed analysis of device content as that sequence should work.

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Ok, I did the factory reset and added them back in.

When I added them in the ISY put them into a default scene, and this scene for the most part makes the 3 way, as in they both can turn the lights on and off.

 

Switch1 works like it should. Turn it on or off and it ramps over the 2 seconds, the led's only move on switch1.

Switch2 can turn the lights on and off, but doesn't ramp. And while turning the lights on and off both switches leds move like they should. The led's go slow like it should be ramping too.

 

In all screens I have ramp rate set (scene and individual switches)

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OK, so you had some phantom links or partial links between the switches, somehow, which are now fixed, I think. I am wondering if both switches are set as controllers. Make sure both switches under the scene on the left hand pane are colored red.

 

When pressing any Insteon switch, the local led's will always ramp at the applied local rate. This is set from within a scene by clicking the device under the scene, or by clicking on the device where it is in the left pane as its own thing.

 

When a switch is a controller, the other switches in the scene will react according to the settings in the scene for each switch.

 

The load(s) will respond according to the behavior of the switch they are attached to.

 

NOTE: the "on level" works the same as the "ramp rate"

 

If you want to create a virtual 3-way where all switches behave exactly the same:

 

1) Click on the scene in the left pane of the main page of ISY admin console

2) Check the box "apply changes to all devices"

3) Set the desired ramp rate and on level

4) Click on the first device under the scene

5) Click "copy scene attributes. . ."

. . . repeat steps 4 and 5 over as many times as necessary for all additional switches.

 

Realize that when you build bigger fancier scenes, you will likely have different devices responding different ways and not all devices will be controllers. This is the cool part of all this. The virtual 3-way you are creating here is kind of boring and may seem a little strange that you need to do these things to get a simple 3 way to work. But, once you start making fancier scenes, you will understand why it is this way.

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Ok, I made them both red and things are working a bit better now.

 

The LED's on both switches ramp together.

Both switched can turn the lights on and off.

 

But the load switch is the only one that ramps.

The virtural switch just turns the lights on fast, although the leds on the switch move at the slower ramp speed.

 

I did the apply changes to all devices, and then copied scene attributes. Under the scene and under the main ISY listing on the left both switches have the 2s ramp rate showing.

 

Both switches can dim the lights (was making sure they were dimmers)

 

 

I think I get the controller/responder thing now at least. But not sure why the dummy switch won't ramp.

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Below the ISY Scene name is listed the node name for the virtual SwitchLinc. When the paddle on this SwitchLinc is pressed it is acting as a Controller, directing the load controlling SwitchLinc what to do. Each Controller has a unique set of Responder values. I expect when the virtual SwitchLinc node name is selected the Responder On Level and Responder Ramp Rate will reflect what is actually happening.

 

This is actually a feature of Insteon. It allows each Controller to affect its Responders in a unique way. When the Scene name is selected the Responder values being set apply to when the ISY PLM is the Controller. These would have an effect when the Scene name is controlled with a Program or through the Admin Console.

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But the load switch is the only one that ramps.

The virtural switch just turns the lights on fast, although the leds on the switch move at the slower ramp speed.

 

 

Your load switch ramp rate in the scene is set to the minimum (.1s). Click on the scene and you should see both switches in the bottom of the right pane. Slide the ramp rate bar for the load switch up to whatever it is you want.

 

Your ramp rate 'applied locally' for both switches is fine.

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Your load switch ramp rate in the scene is set to the minimum (.1s). Click on the scene and you should see both switches in the bottom of the right pane. Slide the ramp rate bar for the load switch up to whatever it is you want.

 

Your ramp rate 'applied locally' for both switches is fine.

 

There are 3 screens I can see each of the two switches on, the ISY main listing, the scene itself, and the device in the scene.

All those screens have 2 second ramp for both switches. I can not find anywhere that doesn't have 2s ramp set.

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