IndyMike

This sounds as if the "master" KPL is providing power to the other devices (very possible if the original switches were 3-way). The KPL and Inlinelincs need continuous (unswitched) power to operate correctly. This is normally done by inspection of the breaker panel. On most panels, the breakers alternate phase from top to bottom. Have a look at the Jeff Volp link that I provided above. He has an example layout for a typical panel. Not sure whether you want to try to correct this yourself or have your electrician back to correct. If you have the electrician back, explain that the switches require continuous power. Also ask whether the devices are on the same phase. Note that the devices "can" operate across the phases. Depending on the coupling through your transformer, operation will vary.

Hello atmit, Phase coupling, or communicating across the legs of your utility transformer, has been around as long as powerline communication (X10 powerline from the 70's). Most homes are supplied with "split single phase" power from a utility transformer. The are three connections to the transformer - 120V-Leg1, neutral, and 120V -Leg2. Many people refer to the "Legs" coming off the transformer as "phases" because they are 180 degrees out of phase. Measuring from either 120V Leg to neutral will show 120V. Measuring from 120V-Leg1 to 120V-Leg2 will show 240V. Your breaker panel distributes both Leg1 and Leg2 voltages throughout your home. Devices communicating from Leg1 to Leg1 will be able to communicate directly (same for Leg2 to Leg2). Devices that are trying to communicate from Leg1 to Leg2 must do so through the utility transformer. Because the transformer can be some distance from your home (and has internal impedance or "resistance"), signals crossing from Leg1 to Leg2 will be attenuated (reduced). Smarthome has developed accesspoints which communicate between the Leg1 and Leg2 devices via RF. This eliminates the signal attenuation the normally occurs through your utility transformer. There are other "hardwired" devices that can couple the communication across the Legs of the transformer. Jeff Volp put together a nice tutorial on the subject here: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.htm. While Jeff put this together for X10 applications, it applies to Insteon as well. Terminology - Where Jeff refers to "Phase A and B" I am using "Leg1 and Leg2) above. .

Hello Mitch, I tried to explain this function in one of your other posts (poorly). The alarm interface is being treated as a "control" function. As such, the ISY will re-evaluate the condition each time your "alarm disarm" occurs. What you need is a "Latch" to keep the program from re-executing if the input does not change state. You can do this with a simple dummy program. The following uses the program "toggle" to latch the control input. On it's first pass, program toggle is False and the condition evaluates to true. On a second pass, Program toggle is true and the condition evaluates to false. This prevents successive "control on" events from executing the program multiple times. If Control '11.1F.DB.1' is switched On And Program 'Toggle' is False Then Set 'BSMT Fam Cans' On Run Program 'Toggle' (Then Path) Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') The opposite condition is shown below. Note that you will need to "initialize" the dummy program "toggle". It's state will be indeterminate when the isy is restarted. If Control '11.1F.DB.1' is switched Off And Program 'Toggle' is True Then Set 'BSMT Fam Cans' Off Run Program 'Toggle' (Else Path) Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

Hi mitch, It sounds as if the program conditional for your *Alarm Disarmed is acting as a control function not a status. Here's a simple example of the two with a SWL: Control - This will run every time the SWL is turned off regardless of the previous state. Multiple off sequences will cause the program to re-run. If BSMT_SWL is Switched off then Turn off basement lamplinc Status - This will run when there is a status change in the SWL to off. Multiple OFF sequences will not re-run the program. If BSMT_SWL is off then Turn off basement lamplinc Beyond that, alarm systems can be tricky. The tough situation is the *Alarmed Stay mode where you can have occupants momentarily opening doors and windows. You don't want to trigger events every time the system cycles. You may need to add some "persistence" to the inputs for this scenario. IM

Hello Michel, In a word - WOW. I did not realize that the newer KPL's were able to do this. I can clean up a LOT of programs that I'm using as "work arounds". Thanks, IM

Hello Bonanza, Some answers (and questions) below, I thought this was going to be an easy one. My recollection is that you cannot turn off the Main load button using a sub button on a KPL dimmer. The problem is, I just tried it and it worked. I'm using V2.7.15 on a ISY99. I can't explain why this works. Is it possible that you have the "B button" set in a "non-toggle Off mode"? This could be due to communication problems with the Switchlinc. Open the "event viewer" on level 3 (/tools/diagnostics/Event Viewer) and look for errors. I haven't seen a tact switch failure for a great while. Since you indicated this is a new unit, I very much hope it's not the switch. Does this unit control the load directly? If not (controlling a lamp through a scene), it's possible that the switch is again having communication problems and can't activate the scene responders. IM Edit: Michel beat me to the punch again. I must be one slow poster.

Alf, No I do not work for UDI or Smarthome. Just an aerospace engineer who's been around the block far to many times and is looking forward to a second career (I'm a ways past retirement age). If I remember correctly, you're a pilot. If that's the case, I'd wager that you could teach me a lot as well. I'd love to add you to the neighborhood - 1 - 80 year old "craftsman" : designs and builds staircases for 7 figure homes in the area. 2 - Transmission shop owner/drag racer 3 - Physics professor at Notre Dame. 4 - Commercial construction engineer/contractor. I really enjoy getting together with this diverse group (at my neighbors pole barn/pool table). I can't tell you how much I've learned over the years. If you'd consider moving to Indiana, we can offer...well - Corn. IM

Hello ergodic and alf, Alf has a bit different situation - he is using a relay unit to switch the transformer. The relay is rated for 15A (1800W) with a resistive load. SH has de-rated the relay to 480W for use with incandescent and inductive loads due to the surge current that these devices can draw. The surge current drawn by incandescent lamps is predictable if you know the temperature of the filament. My 50W floods show a resistance of 21 Ohms when cold. This bulb would draw a surge current of roughly 5.7 Amps when cold. If 9 of the 50W floods were on a circuit (total load 450W) the cold resistance would be 2.3 Ohms (9 - 21 Ohm loads in parallel). This would draw a surge current of roughly 51 Amps (ignores inductance and other factors). So, SH has concluded that the relay contacts can handle in excess of a 51 Amp load (for a brief period until the filament warms) without degrading the life of the relay contacts. Switching over to inductive loads - They do draw surge current and they store energy. This can result in overheating/arcing of the relay contacts at both turn-on and off. My earlier point was that the surge current of drawn by transformers is far less predictable. Max current draw occurs when the relay is switched during the powerline zero crossing and there is residual magnetism in the core. This is an exercise in probability. Relay arcing will occur (depending on the charge storage and contact speed) each time the relay is opened. I find it "conservative" that these inductive ratings are the same as the incandescent. Moving to the transformer itself - As stated earlier, most transformers are very efficient (98% is common). Looking at Alf's transformer, I think they are including the "de-rating" in the specification. Most manufacturers quote 400W input/400 W output after de-rating 80% (the transformers can actually handle 500W). It appears that this manufacturer has included the Max 500 W input rating along with the de-rated 400W output. Bottom line - I would expect that the transformer would draw an input power very close to the 12V load power (well below the 480W rating of the SWL). I also believe that the SWL inductive rating is conservative. Once again, this should not be a safety issue. It could be a wear-out issue where the relay contacts degrade over time. For the reasons stated above, I do not believe this will be the case. If I am wrong, PM me and I'll ship out a relay SWL (I don't plan on going anywhere) . IM

Alf, From your previous post, I think you meant that you have two channel outputs of "200" watts each (typo?). Also from your earlier post, you indicated that the transformer was 500W in/400W output. As jerlands indicated, transformers are normally pretty efficient devices - my earlier example of and 80% efficiency is extremely conservative (i.e. military style derating). I'm very surprised to see that the manufacturer is quoting this low an efficiency. Can you provide a model number so we can review the transformer specs? By the numbers you have a 80% efficient transformer with a 255W load on the output. input power consumption would be 255W/0.8 = 318W (well below the 480W rating on the SWL label). If you're concerned about expansion (additional lamps), I'd suggest measuring the actual consumption by the transformer with your planned 255W load. My educated guess is that both the SWL and the transformer ratings are very conservative and that your system would be reliable with the full 400 watt load on the transformer. If the worst were to happen (the load is in excess of the relay contact capability) this becomes a wear out issue with the relay contacts. It is not a safety issue. The relay contacts will simply wear out prematurely. IM

Hello Alf, I apologize, but I have to retract my earlier posts indicating that the relay units were rated for 15A inductive loads. This was a bad assumption based on the website information. Today I found an old photo that I had taken of a V2.5 relay unit. Based on the label, the inductive rating is the same as the incandescent.

Hello sfhutchi, If you are interested in true "occupancy" sensing you may need to step things up a level. There are devices available that incorporate dual IR/Ultrasonic sensing that might be able to accomplish your goal. A few caveats: 1) I do not know of any low voltage versions of "dual" sensing devices. Most are configured to directly control a load (120 V). 2) I've never used something like this in a bathroom (conference rooms yes - worked well). 3) Most of the devices I've seen are relay type outputs (non-dimming). A combined PIR/acoustic type sensor would presumably activate when motion was initially sensed. It would continue to "hold" until both the PIR and Ultrasonic sensors indicated that motion had ceased. The Ultrasonic sensor is capable of detecting motion that is not "line of sight". It uses a Doppler shift algorithm to detect hand motions and other motions that a PIR cannot see. Presumably, this would include motion within a shower from both the occupant and the shower head itself (turbulence from the water flow). As I indicated, my direct experience is with conference rooms at work. My job requires late night remote conferences with our partners on the West coast (my teammate is of the opposite sex and many years my junior -I'm trying to be PC here - it doesn't come easily). On numerous occasions, our "commercial grade" motion sensing system has plunged us into darkness. I sincerely hope that this was more awkward for me than my teammate (I found it uncomfortable). After a few episodes, I recommended the Leviton OSSMT-MDW to our electrician. Our electrician managed to push things through the system (Ugh) and installed these in three conference rooms. To date, we have great performance in two of the three conference rooms (no more awkward moments). The third conference room has two doors located on a busy hallway. Once triggered on, traffic on the hallways keeps the lamps burning most of the day regardless of activity in the room. I hate recommending products for applications that I do not have personal experience with (I'm breaking from tradition here). You could start slow by replacing an existing switch with the Leviton dual sensing switch. Documentation is here: Leviton OSSMT-MDW A general "occupancy sensing" guide is available from Pass and Seymore here: Motion Sensing Guide If you want to automate, the above have only 120V outputs. You would need a 120V capable sense sensing function (SWL with sense) to signal the ISY and other Insteon responders. If you want level control, things get further complicated... IM

sfhutchi, Bathrooms are tough. This is an area where you may want to sacrifice some automation efficiency to maintain harmony. As you indicated, motion sensor are going to have a tough time given the layout of most bathrooms. As you also noted, they can't know the intention of the occupant. There are ways of telling your automation system what the occupants intention is. Back in the X10 days, I used 2 motion sensors and a 6 button KPL attached to the bathroom fan to instruct my X10 controller on how the bathroom was being used. The various fan buttons would trigger a automation timer (10, 20, 30 minutes) so the user could effectively select the bathroom "mode". While the above worked well most of the time, I would sometimes get communication collisions between the motion sensors (being in a relatively confined area). As you well know, it only takes 1 Oh Sh$$ to erase a lot of atta-boys. That's how I would characterize this setup - 99%, but that 1% failure would really hurt. When I moved to the new house, I made the decision not to automate the baths. I installed CFL lighting and a hardwired Leviton fan timer. This setup is 100% to the bosses liking. IM

Brad, Sorry if we're slow in providing details. We're somewhat bound by the terms of the Alpha/Beta test agreement. Matt Randle is leading the testing from the SH side: mrandle@smartlabsinc.com

Hello Ron, I realize this is an old post... just in case you're still looking. I've had the Morning deadbolt installed on my garage entry door for about a year now. This is our main method of entering the house and the door gets used 30+ times a day (conservative estimate). Here's a little review that I did on the Lock + remote: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=3642&highlight= I've been using the IOLinc kit to control the lock: http://www.smarthome.com/24950B2/I-O-Linc-INSTEON-Morning-Industry-Lock-Control-Kit/p.aspx While this has functioned well, it's a bit obtrusive. If you can afford to wait, SH is currently testing a dedicated product that will perform the same function as the kit in a far nicer package. I was involved with the Alpha testing of the product, and as I result, can't provide specifics. Edit: Ron, just say you on the list of Beta testers. Sorry for the diversion.

Oberkc makes an excellent point. I'm not sure how much the Led lamps cost, but the price would be offset by the lower cost of a smaller transformer and lighter gauge wire. The 500/600W transformers I saw were above $200. Wire gauge for any appreciable run length would be 8 or 10Awg - ain't cheap. That's without mentioning electric bills.

Alf, Yes, as long as the current draw is below 15A you should be OK. The 500W / 12V = Output current. You are looking for the input current to the transformer. As Rand indicated, the transformer isn't 100% efficient. Most run above 90% efficiency, but some are designed to be less efficient to protect themselves from output shorts. To be safe, use 80% efficiency - 500W/.8 = 625 W input power Input Current = 625W/120V = 5.2 Amps (plenty of margin). Incorrect Edit: Just looked at the back of an old Switchlinc Relay unit - The label stipulates 13A resistive/480W Incandescent and Inductive. This is the only place I've ever seen an Inductive rating for a relay unit. The website ratings for the relay units are "non-specific and misleading" in regard to Inductive loads. While I believe that a 480W rating is conservative for an inductive load, it is what SH has certified the device to. Please disregard my earlier comments regarding a 15A rating for inductive loads.

Hello Alf, Sorry I'm a bit slow on the reply... Since your outdoor lighting will be powered through the transformer the load will appear inductive to the InlineLinc. SH rates the InlineLinc at 15A inductive. The incandescent rating on the Inlinelinc is due to inrush current that occurs when an incandescent lamp is first turned on. This inrush can be 10X the normal current for the bulb. For a 500W incandescent this would be on the order of 42 amps. On the flip side, transformers also demand inrush current when first switched on. The amount of current demanded is far less predictable (depends on the transformer type, where the AC signal is at turn on, and residual magnetism in the core) and can actually exceed that of an incandescent bulb. The fact that SH rates the relay contacts of the Inlinelinc at 15A implies that they are either using compensation or consider the likelihood (rate of occurrence) of a max inrush as small. Edit - this is incorrect. The website information is misleading. The label on the back of the relay devices (V2.5 Switchlinc) specified 480W Incandescent and Inductive. So much for the long hair stuff - I was browsing some sites the other day and came across an interesting guide for planning outdoor lighting. Most of my outdoor lighting is far lower power than what you're planning. At 500 watts, you'll need to plan your system to avoid voltage losses over the length of the run. The manufacturer suggests using 3 - wire cable and staggering the lamps across the phases to cut down on voltage losses and cable runs. It was something I hadn't thought of before (maybe it's standard). The article is located here: http://www.ruudlightingdirect.com/landscape/5_step.asp The specific circuit diagram is here: http://www.ruudlightingdirect.com/landscape/dualcircuit.html

Hello Gadgetfreak, I could give you a long explanation on why Boosterlincs will intermittently talk over Insteon communications, but thought I would spare you the detail. Suffice it to say that all versions of the Bossterlinc have this problem to a certain degree. Note also that there are Smarthome versions of the X10 switches that incorporate "Boosterlinc technology". This can be disabled on the switch, but I have no data on how effective this is in eliminating data collision. Please check to see if any of your X10 switches use the Boosterlinc function. Since you were likely programming your Insteon devices with the Boosterlinc installed, it's possible that you have missing/corrupt links in the devices. Your "upper left load" kpl may have a corrupt link. You could perform a "restore" on problem devices, or if you're curious: 1) Run a device link scan: /tools/diagnostics/device links table 2) Compare the device links with what the ISY think should be programmed: hit compare in the "device links table window" after it's populated. 3) restore any device that has missing/corrupt links. If you find that you require a plug in X10 booster to restore your X10 communications, I would highly recommend Jeff Volp's XTBr. Jeff spent a good bit of time working to make sure that this device was Insteon compatible (had to revise the design significantly). It is the only plug in X10 booster that I know of that is compatible with Insteon. I've had both prototypes and production units installed for over 8 months now with nary a problem. Prior to installation my X10 system was faltering due to signal absorption by the Insteon units. I still have many Leviton X10 switches that I'm not ready to give up on. The XTBr restored the functionality of these units without degrading my Insteon communications. IM

Hello Michel, The devices in question are Switchlincs and 6 button KPL's. Pressing the top rocker on the SWL (or on of the KPL) sends the device to the pre-programmed level. A second press sends the device to 100% (the second press can be hours later - not a fast on). I did a bit more experimenting and verified that the ISY correctly recognized both fast on and bright/dim from the modules. IM

My apologies if this is already a known item. I'm running V2.7.15 and can repeatably show loss of synchronization with virtually any dimmer module. The problem (not sure I can call this a bug) occurs on the second "ON" press of a dimmer module. Setup: 2476D programmed for an on level of 50% First button press (on): Lamp goes to p reprogrammed 50% [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) [standard-Group][00.37.AD-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 [ 0 37 AD 1] DON 0 [ 0 37 AD 1] ST 127 (ISY Correctly infers the on level of 50%) [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 0C.A8.B4 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) [standard-Cleanup][00.37.AD-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Second button press (on): Lamp goes to 100% [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) [standard-Group][00.37.AD-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 [ 0 37 AD 1] DON 0 (note that the ISY Status is not updated - the GUI indicates 50% when the lamp is at 100%) [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 0C.A8.B4 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) [standard-Cleanup][00.37.AD-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 As I said above, I just ran across this - I'm not sure if this existed in previous revisions. Nor is it causing me any real problems. I do think it could be a source of confusion for people. The problem with the above is that the dimmer is not sending any actual level information. The ISY sees a "group ON" and infers the level based on the unit programming. In order to track multiple button presses (not fast on) the ISY would need to look at the current on level and Infer that an additional press would send the unit to 100%. Not sure if this is a reasonable request. IM

Congratulations wrj0, I believe yours is the first report of a Rev 1.1 sensor reporting its low battery status. Curious that your sensor date code indicates that it's actually older than my unit(s) (0909 date code). Can you post what type/brand battery gave you the "low battery" confirmation?

6 Button KPL Dimmer Power Consumption (ES model Beta unit with I2 and "beep" function) Configuration 1) Load unused (capped) and turned off (off LED is illuminated) 2) Device not linked (factory reset configuration) Instantaneous measurements: Voltage - 122 V Current - 0.02 A Power - 2 W Accumulated measurements Power - 0.68 kWhr Time - 339 hours Average power consumption - 2.00 W Observed Power factor - .82 Lower overall consumption and better power factor than the previous V.2d unit.

Rand, You've astounded me again. We're about the same age. Somehow I had formed the impression that anyone doing iron work must be much younger. Now I feel like a real wuss having just been informed that I managed to destroy my shoulder while working on an exhaust system (6 months ago). How in the world were you able to survive setting doors, windows, and stairs all those years? Hello Michel, That's an extremely interesting data point. I wasn't involved with the ISY in the early days. I waited for you to add the X10 capability prior to jumping in. At that point it was already fairly mature. If I understand things correctly, Rand was critical of your initial offering. You took that criticism, analyzed it and used it to improved the product. Eventually, you recruited Rand as part of the team. Gotta say, I love your methods as well as the team.

6 Button KPL V.2D Power Consumption Configuration 1) Load unused (capped) and turned off 2) Button 2: Toggle (Linked to my security system) 3) Button 3: Toggle (unlinked) 4) Button 4: Non Toggle ON (always lit) 5) Button 5: Non Toggle ON (always lit) 6) Button 6: Load off button (on) Instantaneous measurements: Voltage - 122 V Current - 0.08 A Power - 3 W Accumulated measurements Power - 0.21 kWhr Time - 88.82 hours Average power consumption - 2.36 W Observed Power factor - .24 Next up - 6 button KPL dimmer (ES model). This unit appears to have power factor correction.

Brian, This doesn't surprise me at all given your background. I actually suspect that you may also disassemble units to look for component and layout changes between revisions (I've done it). While it's interesting to look at how the modules have changed over the years, it does create a bit of a problem for returns. That's most likely why I have a number of "spare units" around. Rand, You amaze me guy. During the day you work the high iron, and then come home to mess with trains, Insteon, and software. That's pretty diverse. As a side note, I used your "Group commander" with the PLC in the early days of Insteon. It really helped me to understand the protocol and the device linking process. Thank you!