IndyMike

Alf, From your previous post, I think you meant that you have two channel outputs of "200" watts each (typo?). Also from your earlier post, you indicated that the transformer was 500W in/400W output. As jerlands indicated, transformers are normally pretty efficient devices - my earlier example of and 80% efficiency is extremely conservative (i.e. military style derating). I'm very surprised to see that the manufacturer is quoting this low an efficiency. Can you provide a model number so we can review the transformer specs? By the numbers you have a 80% efficient transformer with a 255W load on the output. input power consumption would be 255W/0.8 = 318W (well below the 480W rating on the SWL label). If you're concerned about expansion (additional lamps), I'd suggest measuring the actual consumption by the transformer with your planned 255W load. My educated guess is that both the SWL and the transformer ratings are very conservative and that your system would be reliable with the full 400 watt load on the transformer. If the worst were to happen (the load is in excess of the relay contact capability) this becomes a wear out issue with the relay contacts. It is not a safety issue. The relay contacts will simply wear out prematurely. IM

Hello Alf, I apologize, but I have to retract my earlier posts indicating that the relay units were rated for 15A inductive loads. This was a bad assumption based on the website information. Today I found an old photo that I had taken of a V2.5 relay unit. Based on the label, the inductive rating is the same as the incandescent.

Hello sfhutchi, If you are interested in true "occupancy" sensing you may need to step things up a level. There are devices available that incorporate dual IR/Ultrasonic sensing that might be able to accomplish your goal. A few caveats: 1) I do not know of any low voltage versions of "dual" sensing devices. Most are configured to directly control a load (120 V). 2) I've never used something like this in a bathroom (conference rooms yes - worked well). 3) Most of the devices I've seen are relay type outputs (non-dimming). A combined PIR/acoustic type sensor would presumably activate when motion was initially sensed. It would continue to "hold" until both the PIR and Ultrasonic sensors indicated that motion had ceased. The Ultrasonic sensor is capable of detecting motion that is not "line of sight". It uses a Doppler shift algorithm to detect hand motions and other motions that a PIR cannot see. Presumably, this would include motion within a shower from both the occupant and the shower head itself (turbulence from the water flow). As I indicated, my direct experience is with conference rooms at work. My job requires late night remote conferences with our partners on the West coast (my teammate is of the opposite sex and many years my junior -I'm trying to be PC here - it doesn't come easily). On numerous occasions, our "commercial grade" motion sensing system has plunged us into darkness. I sincerely hope that this was more awkward for me than my teammate (I found it uncomfortable). After a few episodes, I recommended the Leviton OSSMT-MDW to our electrician. Our electrician managed to push things through the system (Ugh) and installed these in three conference rooms. To date, we have great performance in two of the three conference rooms (no more awkward moments). The third conference room has two doors located on a busy hallway. Once triggered on, traffic on the hallways keeps the lamps burning most of the day regardless of activity in the room. I hate recommending products for applications that I do not have personal experience with (I'm breaking from tradition here). You could start slow by replacing an existing switch with the Leviton dual sensing switch. Documentation is here: Leviton OSSMT-MDW A general "occupancy sensing" guide is available from Pass and Seymore here: Motion Sensing Guide If you want to automate, the above have only 120V outputs. You would need a 120V capable sense sensing function (SWL with sense) to signal the ISY and other Insteon responders. If you want level control, things get further complicated... IM

sfhutchi, Bathrooms are tough. This is an area where you may want to sacrifice some automation efficiency to maintain harmony. As you indicated, motion sensor are going to have a tough time given the layout of most bathrooms. As you also noted, they can't know the intention of the occupant. There are ways of telling your automation system what the occupants intention is. Back in the X10 days, I used 2 motion sensors and a 6 button KPL attached to the bathroom fan to instruct my X10 controller on how the bathroom was being used. The various fan buttons would trigger a automation timer (10, 20, 30 minutes) so the user could effectively select the bathroom "mode". While the above worked well most of the time, I would sometimes get communication collisions between the motion sensors (being in a relatively confined area). As you well know, it only takes 1 Oh Sh$$ to erase a lot of atta-boys. That's how I would characterize this setup - 99%, but that 1% failure would really hurt. When I moved to the new house, I made the decision not to automate the baths. I installed CFL lighting and a hardwired Leviton fan timer. This setup is 100% to the bosses liking. IM

Brad, Sorry if we're slow in providing details. We're somewhat bound by the terms of the Alpha/Beta test agreement. Matt Randle is leading the testing from the SH side: mrandle@smartlabsinc.com

Hello Ron, I realize this is an old post... just in case you're still looking. I've had the Morning deadbolt installed on my garage entry door for about a year now. This is our main method of entering the house and the door gets used 30+ times a day (conservative estimate). Here's a little review that I did on the Lock + remote: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?t=3642&highlight= I've been using the IOLinc kit to control the lock: http://www.smarthome.com/24950B2/I-O-Linc-INSTEON-Morning-Industry-Lock-Control-Kit/p.aspx While this has functioned well, it's a bit obtrusive. If you can afford to wait, SH is currently testing a dedicated product that will perform the same function as the kit in a far nicer package. I was involved with the Alpha testing of the product, and as I result, can't provide specifics. Edit: Ron, just say you on the list of Beta testers. Sorry for the diversion.

Oberkc makes an excellent point. I'm not sure how much the Led lamps cost, but the price would be offset by the lower cost of a smaller transformer and lighter gauge wire. The 500/600W transformers I saw were above $200. Wire gauge for any appreciable run length would be 8 or 10Awg - ain't cheap. That's without mentioning electric bills.

Alf, Yes, as long as the current draw is below 15A you should be OK. The 500W / 12V = Output current. You are looking for the input current to the transformer. As Rand indicated, the transformer isn't 100% efficient. Most run above 90% efficiency, but some are designed to be less efficient to protect themselves from output shorts. To be safe, use 80% efficiency - 500W/.8 = 625 W input power Input Current = 625W/120V = 5.2 Amps (plenty of margin). Incorrect Edit: Just looked at the back of an old Switchlinc Relay unit - The label stipulates 13A resistive/480W Incandescent and Inductive. This is the only place I've ever seen an Inductive rating for a relay unit. The website ratings for the relay units are "non-specific and misleading" in regard to Inductive loads. While I believe that a 480W rating is conservative for an inductive load, it is what SH has certified the device to. Please disregard my earlier comments regarding a 15A rating for inductive loads.

Hello Alf, Sorry I'm a bit slow on the reply... Since your outdoor lighting will be powered through the transformer the load will appear inductive to the InlineLinc. SH rates the InlineLinc at 15A inductive. The incandescent rating on the Inlinelinc is due to inrush current that occurs when an incandescent lamp is first turned on. This inrush can be 10X the normal current for the bulb. For a 500W incandescent this would be on the order of 42 amps. On the flip side, transformers also demand inrush current when first switched on. The amount of current demanded is far less predictable (depends on the transformer type, where the AC signal is at turn on, and residual magnetism in the core) and can actually exceed that of an incandescent bulb. The fact that SH rates the relay contacts of the Inlinelinc at 15A implies that they are either using compensation or consider the likelihood (rate of occurrence) of a max inrush as small. Edit - this is incorrect. The website information is misleading. The label on the back of the relay devices (V2.5 Switchlinc) specified 480W Incandescent and Inductive. So much for the long hair stuff - I was browsing some sites the other day and came across an interesting guide for planning outdoor lighting. Most of my outdoor lighting is far lower power than what you're planning. At 500 watts, you'll need to plan your system to avoid voltage losses over the length of the run. The manufacturer suggests using 3 - wire cable and staggering the lamps across the phases to cut down on voltage losses and cable runs. It was something I hadn't thought of before (maybe it's standard). The article is located here: http://www.ruudlightingdirect.com/landscape/5_step.asp The specific circuit diagram is here: http://www.ruudlightingdirect.com/landscape/dualcircuit.html

Hello Gadgetfreak, I could give you a long explanation on why Boosterlincs will intermittently talk over Insteon communications, but thought I would spare you the detail. Suffice it to say that all versions of the Bossterlinc have this problem to a certain degree. Note also that there are Smarthome versions of the X10 switches that incorporate "Boosterlinc technology". This can be disabled on the switch, but I have no data on how effective this is in eliminating data collision. Please check to see if any of your X10 switches use the Boosterlinc function. Since you were likely programming your Insteon devices with the Boosterlinc installed, it's possible that you have missing/corrupt links in the devices. Your "upper left load" kpl may have a corrupt link. You could perform a "restore" on problem devices, or if you're curious: 1) Run a device link scan: /tools/diagnostics/device links table 2) Compare the device links with what the ISY think should be programmed: hit compare in the "device links table window" after it's populated. 3) restore any device that has missing/corrupt links. If you find that you require a plug in X10 booster to restore your X10 communications, I would highly recommend Jeff Volp's XTBr. Jeff spent a good bit of time working to make sure that this device was Insteon compatible (had to revise the design significantly). It is the only plug in X10 booster that I know of that is compatible with Insteon. I've had both prototypes and production units installed for over 8 months now with nary a problem. Prior to installation my X10 system was faltering due to signal absorption by the Insteon units. I still have many Leviton X10 switches that I'm not ready to give up on. The XTBr restored the functionality of these units without degrading my Insteon communications. IM

Hello Michel, The devices in question are Switchlincs and 6 button KPL's. Pressing the top rocker on the SWL (or on of the KPL) sends the device to the pre-programmed level. A second press sends the device to 100% (the second press can be hours later - not a fast on). I did a bit more experimenting and verified that the ISY correctly recognized both fast on and bright/dim from the modules. IM

My apologies if this is already a known item. I'm running V2.7.15 and can repeatably show loss of synchronization with virtually any dimmer module. The problem (not sure I can call this a bug) occurs on the second "ON" press of a dimmer module. Setup: 2476D programmed for an on level of 50% First button press (on): Lamp goes to p reprogrammed 50% [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) [standard-Group][00.37.AD-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 [ 0 37 AD 1] DON 0 [ 0 37 AD 1] ST 127 (ISY Correctly infers the on level of 50%) [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 0C.A8.B4 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) [standard-Cleanup][00.37.AD-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Second button press (on): Lamp goes to 100% [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00) [standard-Group][00.37.AD-->Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 [ 0 37 AD 1] DON 0 (note that the ISY Status is not updated - the GUI indicates 50% when the lamp is at 100%) [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.37.AD 0C.A8.B4 41 11 01 LTONRR (01) [standard-Cleanup][00.37.AD-->ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 As I said above, I just ran across this - I'm not sure if this existed in previous revisions. Nor is it causing me any real problems. I do think it could be a source of confusion for people. The problem with the above is that the dimmer is not sending any actual level information. The ISY sees a "group ON" and infers the level based on the unit programming. In order to track multiple button presses (not fast on) the ISY would need to look at the current on level and Infer that an additional press would send the unit to 100%. Not sure if this is a reasonable request. IM

Congratulations wrj0, I believe yours is the first report of a Rev 1.1 sensor reporting its low battery status. Curious that your sensor date code indicates that it's actually older than my unit(s) (0909 date code). Can you post what type/brand battery gave you the "low battery" confirmation?

6 Button KPL Dimmer Power Consumption (ES model Beta unit with I2 and "beep" function) Configuration 1) Load unused (capped) and turned off (off LED is illuminated) 2) Device not linked (factory reset configuration) Instantaneous measurements: Voltage - 122 V Current - 0.02 A Power - 2 W Accumulated measurements Power - 0.68 kWhr Time - 339 hours Average power consumption - 2.00 W Observed Power factor - .82 Lower overall consumption and better power factor than the previous V.2d unit.

Rand, You've astounded me again. We're about the same age. Somehow I had formed the impression that anyone doing iron work must be much younger. Now I feel like a real wuss having just been informed that I managed to destroy my shoulder while working on an exhaust system (6 months ago). How in the world were you able to survive setting doors, windows, and stairs all those years? Hello Michel, That's an extremely interesting data point. I wasn't involved with the ISY in the early days. I waited for you to add the X10 capability prior to jumping in. At that point it was already fairly mature. If I understand things correctly, Rand was critical of your initial offering. You took that criticism, analyzed it and used it to improved the product. Eventually, you recruited Rand as part of the team. Gotta say, I love your methods as well as the team.

6 Button KPL V.2D Power Consumption Configuration 1) Load unused (capped) and turned off 2) Button 2: Toggle (Linked to my security system) 3) Button 3: Toggle (unlinked) 4) Button 4: Non Toggle ON (always lit) 5) Button 5: Non Toggle ON (always lit) 6) Button 6: Load off button (on) Instantaneous measurements: Voltage - 122 V Current - 0.08 A Power - 3 W Accumulated measurements Power - 0.21 kWhr Time - 88.82 hours Average power consumption - 2.36 W Observed Power factor - .24 Next up - 6 button KPL dimmer (ES model). This unit appears to have power factor correction.

Brian, This doesn't surprise me at all given your background. I actually suspect that you may also disassemble units to look for component and layout changes between revisions (I've done it). While it's interesting to look at how the modules have changed over the years, it does create a bit of a problem for returns. That's most likely why I have a number of "spare units" around. Rand, You amaze me guy. During the day you work the high iron, and then come home to mess with trains, Insteon, and software. That's pretty diverse. As a side note, I used your "Group commander" with the PLC in the early days of Insteon. It really helped me to understand the protocol and the device linking process. Thank you!

Hi Zick, Sorry for the delay - I had missed your question earlier. The LampLinc simply plugs into the UPM (or the Kill-a-watt). For the KPL, I wired a three prong power cord (Power tool replacement cord - 2 wires + ground) to the KPL. The red wire (load control) is capped. I actually use the power cord to "bench test" every unit prior to installing them in their final location. That way I know I have good links in the device and the ISY. If I encounter a problem at the final destination, it's due to a problem on the local circuit. OK, so I'm a bit anal. The first step to recovery is admitting...

Hi Mark, Your numbers on the Dual-band LL are intriguing. Since the device is essentially still active (transmitting/receiving RF) I'd expect some increase in the avg power. However, 0.7 W is quite a bit. Either we have a difference in the measurement capability of our devices (UPM vs Kill-a-watt) or the dual-band units are significantly less efficient. What does the power factor look like on these units? Edit: Just noted that the 2456D3 is not a dual band - even more interesting. My unit is an old 2856D2 Icon dimmer.

Background - the power display on the UPM and Kill-a-watt only have a resolution down to 1 watt. This isn't sufficient to display the actual power being consumed by many automation modules. When you have 50 (or 100) of these devices installed, it makes a big difference if the unit is consuming 1 or .5 watts. By performing a long term kWhr test you can significantly increase the resolution of the measurement. I've accumulated 167.33 hours of power consumption on my Lamplinc using a UPM EM100: Instant current: 0.08 A Line Voltage: 122 Vrms Instant power: 0 W Run time: 167 hours 20 min Accumulated consumption: 0.03 kWHr Avg power = (0.03 kWHr * 1000)/167.33 Hr = 0.179 Watts Uncertainty ( the 0.03 kWHr could range from 0.025 to 0.034) @ 0.025: 0.149 Watts @ 0.034: 0.203 Watts Lamplinc is a V1.0 (rev 1.2) and was run without a connected load. The above is quite a bit less than what I was anticipating for the LL (I expected something in the 0.5 W range). Next up - 6 button KPL.

Hi Ergodic, An inductive power meter (clamp style) may have problems measuring the low current draw of your Inseon devices. Also the 30% power factor number - is that a typo? Most HA devices consume power (off power) with power factor well below that (15 - 20%). If your intent is to measure circuit currents to major devices and lighting loads, these items may not be a concern.

The old electro-mechanical meters were a work of art (spinning dial meter). Fortunately, with modern microprocessors, we don't need a strong physics/e-mag background to do this anymore. Most of the current devices simply sample the Voltage and Current waveforms at a high rate. Average power is then a simple multiplication of the two over a time period (T). Note: I have seen my UPM get "confused" in the presence of voltage spikes (CFL's, etc). This normally occurs at low power consumption/near 90 degree phase shift ( PF near 0). It will sometimes alternate between 0 and 8W on my LL (0w being the correct reading). Adding a filter to the input of the UPM typically corrects this fluctuation. The Dave Houston link that I provided earlier lists measurements for a number of devices. I trust both Dave's methods and the numbers he provided. Since there wasn't much data on current Insteon devices, I've just kicked off a long term (kWh) test on a spare LampLinc I have. I'll report back in about a week. IM

ergoic, Sorry to hear about the Kill-a-watt. It should handle a resistive load easily. Don't mean to be insulting but - you aren't connecting the Kill-a-watt to to output of the dimmer are you? The UPM EM130 does appear to display power factor (My older EM100 does not): EM130 Manual

Mark, Thank you for the confirmation. My understanding was that the Kill-o-watt was pretty good in determining device consumption and PF. At one time I actually considering buying one as a backup. IM

Hello ergodic, I'm a bit surprised that your Kill-a-watt gets confused with dimmers. I had understood it to be equivalent to, or better than, my UPM EM100. Are you measuring incandescent or CFL loads? If CFL, the Kill-a-watt may have some problems with the poor power factor on some CFL's. I can say that my UPM appears to measure both incandescent and dimmable CFL loads under full-on and dimmed conditions. My dimmable CFL is a Sylvania 15W. It measures 19,52 VA and 15 W (PF ~. with the UPM. Hopefully someone with a Kill-A-Watt can comment on their use with dimmers. IM