Guy Lavoie

It looks like what Goose66 is saying is that the program will retrigger (as we'd say about an electronic circuit), so any resulting sequences and timings are started over from the beginning.

Has anyone ever replaced the triac on one of these? If so, do you have a triac part number? It looks like a regular TO-220 case. Just good stuff to know in case... It should be straightforward to drill out the rivet, unsolder it, and replace it.

As I often say, the best (mobile phone, browser, operating system, ha platform, etc) is the one you know best. As IndyMike said, check out their + and -, especially as experienced by real users, not vendor literature.

This discussion raises a good question: what happens if you restore a backup to a different ISY994i that doesn't have a module that the original had? Does the restore fail? For example, if I had the X10 module and I try to restore to a unit that doesn't have it, what happens in the programs?

This question kind of goes along with the ones I've been asking about links. I'll be following this thread.

Thanks for the responses guys. Well, scenes are next on my learning list anyways so I'll certainly check that out.

At worst, you might be able to turn it into a slave switch, if you have an otherwise good switch being used as a slave in a 3 way circuit somewhere else. Swap the switches and cap off the red load wire.

Wrapping up my Insteon link learning for the day, I checked out the links table for my test device and it looks consistent enough. The first link I see is the manual one I made with the 2412N, then the reciprocal links to and from the PLM connected to the ISY994i, followed by the manual link to a second switch (to create a 3 way circuit), then the manual link to the 2245-222 hub, and finally to a mini controller. As per the wiki, the ISY994i responder link is A2 and controller link (some are F2, others E2). The other 4 links, all done manually, appear as AA. So it appears that all manual links to devices other than the PLM are treated as the same, which would be good news. Now when you say that instead of manually linking two switches together to make a virtual 3 way circuit, that I should use the ISY994i, are you saying that there is a way to create actual links between devices (I haven't found where), or that I should be doing that as scenes? Thanks.

If the status on your controller appears to be correct but the load is always on, then that's a good indication that the control electronics survived, but the power triac didn't. That would usually be repairable.

If these devices have triacs in them, they could be blown, which often causes them to be shorted out and appear as being on constantly.

Well I'm not having issues. I'm just figuring out something that's new to me, and the possibilities are looking pretty good so far! I'm able to do what I want it to, once I understand it. Yes, the suggestions are more than welcome, and I think that once I have the ISY994i's link maintenance figured out, I'll be quite happy with it.

Now that's almost (I said almost...) worrying So you're saying that the instructions that come with every Insteon device about linking should be ignored, and that the ISY994i becomes the alternate way of creating links. I'll have to read up on that, including the cookbook. I thought the ISY was adding itself to the links, as a controller and/or responder for different devices. It's when I see comments like "You may have issues" that makes me wonder how well linking is understood, and makes me want to learn the specifics. I appreciate the feedback guys! In other experimentation I've been doing (hah, now I'll get spanked) I also got a factory reset 2245-222 Insteon hub responding to http commands. It's not even registered to an Insteon account. Strictly local control stuff. Like the 2412N, I manually link it to a device, and I can then turn it on and off with http commands. Also, even though officially it no longer supports X10, the embedded PLM still does. Good to know. Remember, I'm doing all this on a test setup to learn. I don't have a single Insteon device installed in my home, other than that 2414N presently doing Alexa duty. This way, I can factory reset devices and start over easily, such as for examining how linking tables change at each experiment step.

I don't want to start managing links manually. But I want to be able to do things like look at the link table for a device and understand what it's telling me. And what a "normally" linked device should look like, etc. For example, take two factory reset switches, link one to the other (3 way in one direction), then add them as devices in the ISY994i and import the link tables and view them. I think I should see them linked together, and also pointing to the ISY994i's PLM. That kind of thing. Seeing what it looks like when working normally is great when troubleshooting later. So far, I'm catching on slowly but surely, the way I like it.

Thanks! Whitepapers are often handy in understanding the design philosophy of a protocol.

Well, I've been an X10 user for 25 years, with a system that still works very well for me. I designed and built a standalone alarm system that communicates with X10 too. I have had the same ADI Ocelot running things for all that time without a hiccup. Most of my wall switches are Switchlinc 2384, which were well regarded at the time. I repaired a few (bad buttons) but they've been good. I was heavily involved with the Ocelot and ADI, and even wrote the 150 page manual for them when CMax 2.0 was developed. I added my Alexa project (using HA-bridge, and a program of my own making to drive a CM11A) about 2 years ago. That's been working great ever since. Way back around 2005 when Insteon first came out I had bought a Powerlinc 2414S PLC and a couple of Icon switches, and played around with that a bit. I had joined a developer's forum. Got the Ocelot to turn on the switches through the 2414S. But nothing else became of it. Then a few months ago an opportunity came up to get a used ISY994i for $20. So something new to play with and since it supports X10, also possibly add some functionality to my setup. Then bought a small lot of Insteon items on marketplace, including this 2412N that I initially thought was just an appliance module. Digging up stuff on the internet, I found out it was essentially a PLM with a web server built in. Basically an early hub. That's when the project of adapting my Alexa program to use that instead of the CM11A came about. Got that to work just fine. Cool. Faster, network connection instead of serial, and supports both X10 and Insteon. Now I've gotten around to exploring the ISY994i itself. Interesting little unit, and possibly handy for some of my projects, though the programming language isn't as "raw" as the Ocelot (I love ladder logic, Assembly language, etc). I had so much success with the Ocelot that I figured I'd take a similar approach with the ISY994i: learning the actual way it does things, and the way Insteon works, esp with links (hence the discussions in the preceeding posts). One poster replied with something like "The ISY then does it's magic..." concerning maintaining links, but I like to know precisely what this means. From experimenting, I can see that it keeps track of links between devices, and establishes new links with itself (well, the PLM). I'm still learning, and that's ok. Slowly but surely works well for me. Now we come to the idea that I should use the ISY994i to implement my Alexa functionality. Well, the one I have doesn't have the portal module, seems you can't add it anymore anyways, and getting the new EISY would cost me over $430 Canadian (I'm in Canada) plus I'd have to pay an annual subscription, just to be able to do what I'm already doing for free with the 2412N that cost me basically nothing. Not very appealing. Look guys, this is mainly a hobby for me, and I had a lot of fun developing that program to use Alexa (and learned a lot about Insteon in the process). Now I'm learning about links, and status, and learned a lot just from this thread! Importing the links when adding a device makes logical sense now.

Well, I like the speed and independence of the Alexa app, especially through the 2412N. My former app used a CM11A and wasn't as fast, and only did X10. Plus it does macros, like A1,A2,A3,AOn, and they're easy to edit. The faster speed turned out to be a bonus. I was just going for the added Insteon functionality. Going through an extra controller and extra programming is the kind of thing I try to avoid. This way, even if I'm working on the rest of my system or the ISY994i is out of commission for some reason, Alexa still works (kind of important for the missus). Again, I was mostly trying to learn how status tracking worked, more than for a specific need at this time.

I'm getting the hang of adding devices. I factory reset both switches and deleted them in the ISY994i, and started over. I first created the link between switch 2 and switch 1 to make it a 3 way, and also did the link thing with the 2412N towards switch 1 (the switch really beeps like a link is extablished). Then I created the two switches in the ISY994i, this time importing the existing links too. It now lists the devices that the switch is either a controller and/or responder to, and does show that it's a responder to switch 2. But doesn't show the link to the 2412N... I guess that confirms it doesn't do it. Now at least I'm getting the status of switch 1 updated whether it's turned on locally or by switch 2, which is better. Also, I think I've found a workaround for those few cases where knowing the status of a device turned on or off by my Alexa setup is important. I could have my program set a variable in the ISY994i using a REST command, and then that variable gets changed to a value, send query requests to the device(s) that I need a status update for. I just tested it and it works.

1- I'll check that out. 2- Well...when I click on Add device and choose from the device types, the PLMs are there (2413S, 2413U, 2412S, 2412U...but not the 2412N). When I do add it, it says "unsupported device type". I would have thought that at the PLM level, they were all treated the same for a given model number. However I also notice that the Insteon hubs aren't listed either, and the 2412N is considered to be one of the early hubs. I guess I'm guilty of wishful thinking!

Interesting. How would I go about launching that?

1- Ok, now we're on to something. In my crusty old X10 mind scenes were simply macros, things that you wanted to happen together. I guess Insteon scenes are a bit more involved, in having the devices keeps tabs on each other. I'll read up on scenes for my next homework. 2- Well, I just want to have the 2412n seen as just another switch sending on and off commands, not having another application administering links, etc. If you mean more by "only thing that controls those switches" then that would need to be explained. In my mind, controllers (of any kind) can send commands to responders (switches, keypads, even hubs).

Yes, I can still control the switch from either the hub or from the ISY994i. That makes sense because you can also have other switches or keypads controlling a switch. I thought the whole advantage with Insteon was the ability to always track status. So it makes a difference on where the control signal comes from, as far as tracking status goes. Before posting this reply, I added a second switch, and linked it to the initial switch (let's call it switch 1). Switch 2 can control it fine, like a 3 way circuit, as expected. But once again, the status of switch 1 isn't updated in the ISY994i. The status only updates if it's turned on manually, or by a command from the ISY994i itself. That can't be right... Please note that I'm learning here, and I'm probably missing a step to have all this work the way I think it should.

Hi all. I'm still new to Insteon and I'm learning with a test setup. I have the ISY994i as the main controller, and also a 2412n "central controller" that's used independently by an application of my own creation for Alexa, allowing it to control X10 and Insteon lights. My test device is a 2477S on/off switch. I first added the switch to the ISY994i and it works fine: turning it on and off, and updating the status if I operate the switch manually. As expected. I then established a controller to responder link from the 2412n to the switch, and now my Alexa setup can control the switch. As expected. However the ISY994i isn't showing the status change. I tried establishing a controller to responder link from the 2412n to the PLM, thinking that maybe it needs to send updates to the PLM, but that doesn't change anything. Is there a way to have the ISY994i track the status of the switch no matter how it's turned on or by what? Thanks for any hints about this.

Yes, with the Ocelot the "Skip to" command that was added in C-Max 2.0 allowed that kind of nested programming, where a logic test allowed you to skip over one or more logic tests. It really came a full ladder logic machine with that. I had asked Dan Smith at ADI to add that, along with the modulo math operator. Good memories of those days! With that, it became possible to script programs like the C language: If (condition) { If (other tests) Then.... } As I told some C programmers at the time, the "Skip to" command translates to a "{" in C (that skips to the matching "}" ) if the logic test is false. The complier hides that from you!

Yes I know (from using X10 for 25 years now...) that most devices like switches don't send their status when manually activated. But that's secondary right now, because I was mostly trying to understand the programming model for the ISY994i. The same logic rules will apply to switch status, variables, etc. The thing I've determined is that all the logic tests (IF/AND/OR) within programs test static conditions, or single events like a control message being received, but if the whole resulting logic test of the program transitions from false to true, the THEN clauses are run, and if it transitions from true to false, the ELSE statements are run. That was the goal.

Thanks for the responses. Well I finally got around to writing a test program. It turns out that the status test is a bit of both: a test of static condition and also of a status change. I wrote a simple two line program that tests the status of two X10 addresses, with an AND statement, and increments a variable if both are On, like this: If A1 Status is On AND A2 Status is ON THEN variable1 =+1 The way it behaves is that if either device is on and I turn on the other one (changes from off to on), the variable increments. In that sense, the device that is already on is being tested for it's static condition only. But if both are on and the test would be strictly about the static condition, then the variable would be incrementing wildly and continuously as long as that's true. As I mentioned in my first post, the language seems to be designed with "idiot proofing" in mind, and more specifically, it's the status of the WHOLE program that needs to transition to true to trigger the THEN statement(s), and transition to false to trigger the ELSEs. It's the status TRANSITION of the WHOLE program that makes it single triggering. Now I also see how the current static condition of the whole program can also be tested in other programs, with the IF Program... statement. Now it's clear!