ELA

apostolakisl, Do you know what a MWBC ( Multi-Wire Branch Circuit) is? If not then you might google it and so some reading. I do not have time to create a drawing right now. Prior to the 2008 NEC , MWBC's were allowed on single pole breakers. Since 2008 they have to have a handle tie. So it is possible for 3 single pole breakers to share a common neutral. Prior to 2008 they did not even have to be right next to each other in the panel. If a person blindly starts moving breakers around the neutral can be overloaded. If you understand the concept of a shared neutral and cancellations of current, in a 3 phase MWBC when all three breakers are on different phases, and the phase currents are equal, the neutral current is zero. Now assume that each phase is loaded to 16 amps. As properly installed the neutral current is zero. If you now move these three breakers such that they are all on the same phase the neutral current will be 48 amps! But don't take my word for it, do some research for MWBC.

apostolakisl, Shall we assume that you are also assuming that the facility was wired to the 2008 NEC or newer?

Hello Prak7121, Insteon communication issues can be tough to sort out in single phase residential environment. Next most difficult would be a 3 phase residential or commercial environment. What you have sounds like the worst, if a commercial/Industrial 3 phase environment. Are you an electrician? If not I would not recommend swapping breakers around in a 3 phase cabinet. Many circuits share a common neutral and while you might help an Insteon issue you may also create an overloaded neutral condition. It would be most helpful to diagram your install. How are the torches being sensed? What type of device and how long are the cables from the sensing device to the IOlincs? IOLincs are not exactly industrial environment devices. There (5V) inputs are a low threshold of about 1 volt and only a couple of milliamps. That makes them more noise susceptible. Especially if cable lengths are long. Typical industrial controls run at 12 or 24Vdc to increase the noise margin. In a commercial/Industrial environment you are much more likely to encounter electrical noise issues. VFDs are notorious for noise generation. As has been mentioned try to identify where the issue might be occurring by testing and observing status leds and ISY logs. Do the LEDs go out completely or do they remain on dimly? Make sure the IOlincs are sensing the at the very moment that the torches change state. What is the incoming service, 480V or 208V ? Are there distributed step down transformers within the facility? In a commercial/Industrial environment there are so many possibilities that a diagram is very helpful to begin to separate/identify possibilities and begin to eliminate some to zero in on the main issue. There may also be more than one contributor.

I had an Arduino with audio shield available from a another never implemented project that I wanted to use. So I bought an EZIO8SA and interfaced it to the Arduino and an inexpensive power amp/speakers combination (one of those that you can use with for a computer). I wanted decent sound quality and significant volume. The Arduino allows you to "can" wave audio files that are accessed via a combination of digital inputs. It has a lot of storage space. The EZIO8SA turns power on to the power amp and Arduino when it receives a command so that they are only on when required. The EZIO8SA is always powered. This works great. Both sound volume and quality are good. I had wanted the EZIO8SA for the ability to also take in inputs such as the door bell. In theory you could access very many sound files ( up to 255) using binary combinations of 6-8 outputs. ( in my application I used two outputs to interrupt power to the Arduino and Power Amp.) Unfortunately the ISY did not support the ability to create the required scenes ( w/binary combinations of outputs) required so I ended up being limited to 8 sounds. Also had to use the Simplehomenet Utility to configure the required binary relay combination outputs (snapshots) to responses from group commands . While for my use 8 sounds/responses was probably enough I have yet to install it in any permanent fashion. Have not decided yet if it is just a fun novelty or actually practical for my use. Either way it was a fun exercise and I can always use the EZIO8SA in other ways. I had some fun being able to emit sounds with a push of a button on my remotelinc2. Until I forgot and left the remotelinc2 in a shirt pocket. It got run through the washer Surprisingly I was able to recover it by opening it up and drying it out. Speakers could be distributed as desired with the right amp. Definitely not the best/easiest solution given others out there, just another way of doing it.

RichTj99, If you confirm the links with LeeG's help one other thing I might suggest: Do you have a 2413S dual band PLM? If so run a level 3 trace holding the triggerlinc in question right next to the PLM. If it is a 2412S then temporarily move an access point right next to the PLM and do the triggerlinc test.

Hello RichT99, One reason to explain why one device in a room can respond and another will not is marginal signal strength. A few posts back you posted a comm log, LeeG mentioned that it demonstrated marginal communications. I am unclear as to what devices that trace was for as compared to the question you posed in this post. You can run comm logs of the two devices in question and compare them for max hops vs hops remaining. Signal strength may be marginal overall in one room and thus some devices receive and some do not. All devices have a some variance in both their receive sensitivity and transmit signal strength. Also local signal suckers can have a greater affect on some devices than on others. It is also very possible to receive a defective (weak) unit right out of the box. The problem is without a method to test signal strength you may never know you have a device with a weak transmitter. I have received one new device with a weak transmitter and two others that experienced a decline in transmitter signal strength over a short period after receiving them. If your question was with regard to triggerlincs, both in the same room, are they mounted or free? You can do some testing with them if they are free and side by side by moving them around in the room to see if they work better in one area than another. Checking for possible zones where RF comms are more marginal. Also consider orientation of the RF transmitter with respect to the receiver. Some RF devices communicate more effectively in one orientation that the other. The antenna inside these devices can be somewhat masked by the circuitry inside the device in certain orientations. This is most evident in the Remotelinc2.

I based my input on the O.P. that stated: "I'm aware that I might be able to use the Insteon Doorbell and Telephone Ring Kit with the I/O Linc. However, I really don't have an outlet to plug the I/O Linc into, without running a wire across the hallway. What I'm really interested in doing is using a TriggerLinc to be the trigger. " Triggerlinc remote sensor current is 10 micro-amps. A 10 amp contact is totally inappropriate.

apostolakisl, Just because a relay may be commonly miss used does not make it right nor a good design decision. Does your ELK reference specify a minimum current? If so and a person adheres to that specification all is well. It is often the problem that the minimum is not specified. When not specified it may or may not work. The lower the current the more likely you are to have issues. Simply stating milli-amps is not enough. As Brian pointed out 30 -100ma may be fine, where as 100 micro-amps to 1 milli-amps may not be. I am not doubting your experience within limited applications. Just giving you some real world, based on thousands of installs, reliable design criteria.

Yes, but for $10 total (shipping included) you are getting 2 relays with multi throws each (meaning you have lots of contacts to choose from). And it is just a doorbell. If it should stop working, it's not like your fire alarm is going to stop working. I really really really doubt those fail (assuming the coils are good as stated by seller). Feel free to really really really doubt it. I am only speaking from 35+ years of experience. Many of which were troubleshooting and redesigning miss applied relay applications. Re-specified a low current contact for a number of applications using that very IDEC relay in a low current application that intermittently failed for the reasons stated. As was stated earlier: you may get a way with it. Or as you said if you are willing to rewire or replace from time to time.

A word of caution on Relay usage. If you use a relays contacts to drive a low current load you should select a relay with low current rated contacts. (often gold plated) The ebay relay pointed to is a 10A rated contact. This is not a proper relay to drive a small milliamp/microamp load like the inputs to Some Insteon devices... While you may get away with it you should not be surprised if it begins to fail over time since the relay contacts are not being "wiped cleaned" by sufficient switching current. In addition the relays on ebay appeared to be used. If they were used for a higher current load previously you are even more likely to encounter problems then using them to switch a very light load. Here is a link to an example of the same manufactures model to switch low current loads: http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RJ22_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets http://us.idec.com/Catalog/ProductSeries.aspx?SeriesName=RYRM_Series&FamilyName=Relays_And_Sockets When you specifically search for a 24VAC coil and low current contacts the options are much more limited. I took some time to find one here ( available at Mouser) that has some interesting specifications under the technical data (contact side) that speaks to how a low current relays ratings change if miss used: http://www.phoenixcontact.com/online/portal/us?uri=pxc-oc-itemdetail:pid=2967112&library=usen&tab=1

Thank you both for your replies. I have not upgraded to 3.3.4 yet so my only reference was the release notes. It sounds like with a ISY update a person should be able to add it as a new device ( and link it) without the need to screw it which is what one would hope for.

Hello LeeG, Brian, Can you please clarify the capabilities of the bulblinc? Your responses seem at odds with each other, or I just miss understood? I thought the device was both an RF and powerline device. Does it not support a begin linking command? I also read where we were waiting for a new ISY revision to support it dirtectly. I missed where 3.3.4 the release notes mentioned support for the bulblinc? Brian, I thought I read a while back that you had ordered one? If so what are your impressions?

Hello Ergodic, To be sure there are noise sources out there and you clearly defined yours as one using an oscilloscope. I was not doubting you. My comments were more in general to the point that either a signal sucker or noise can cause issues and most people do not have the equipment required to identify which it is. In particular, with regard to electronic ballasts they most certainly do produce noise. Manufacturers make efforts to suppress that noise to varying degrees. Most electronic ballasts will have a rectifier input into a relatively large capacitor. This produces both a power factor issue and a possible signal sucker issue for Insteon. Adding power factor correction can help with Insteon by somewhat isolating that capacitive input with inductance. Some manufacturers will include power factor correction with a side benefit of suppressing some noise. Others specifically include an EMI filter to further reduce that noise. A possible complication comes in how they suppress the noise. If a large across the line cap is used in an EMI filter on the line side you may not have a noise issue but instead a signal sucker issue. I have to disagree with your comment about it being easy to decide if it is noise or not by turning a circuit off. Turning a circuit off or unplugging also serves to isolate a possible signal sucker. Turning an entire circuit off also may greatly change the overall impedance of the network. Of course using an Oscope as you did will help clarify the issue. As an example I can take two surge strips with 0.1uf capacitors in them and plug them in certain outlets. Turn them on and Insteon communications takes a dump. With them off all is fine. Definitely no noise involved. I will open my fixture when I can to post the part number. Maybe you could post your ballast information as one to avoid? 12_11_12 update: found time to open and test ballast: Posted results here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5923&start=180 (5th down)

hello ixlr8, IndyMike made some excellent points that I wanted to add to. His suggestion to wait until you have the service wiring installed is important. As he indicated things can get better or worse but most likely they will change. My experience with extension cord is that the wires are typically closer together and therefore exhibit a higher capacitance level ( more signal attenuation). It appears that many Fluorescent ballasts cause issues with Insteon. What is often not fully understood is whether the issue is input capacitance ( signal suckers) or noise. Either way a filterlinc can often be a solution. I have a few fluorescent fixtures that do not exhibit significant signal sucker nor noise issues. Many newer fluorescent ballasts will have power factor correction and/or EMI filters. With the right ballasts filterlincs may not be required. If you have already purchased the fixtures you may want to stick with filterlincs but if not then I felt IMs suggestions were very good ones. Can you list the part number of the existing ballasts?

Hello Xanthros, To be sure there are limitless options, I was just mentioning one which I was implementing given I already had the Arduino available, that was purchased for my daughters project but never used. In my post I stated that the first implementation was just taking advantage of spare Ezflora outputs with the noted limitation ( just because I could) and 255 outputs possible using EZIO8SA. Clunky as it sounds.

For when I do implement my Remotelinc -> Ezflora for manual control, I had also thought about multiple button presses to increment the time function. I was concerned about "knowing" that each key press was valid and accepted by the ISY -PLM. Also the need for the user to count button presses and possibly to delay a few seconds between button presses in case communications was marginal and retries were required. For my purposes I think I would only implement that function if I could have some sort of feedback to assure the timer had been set as desired. For manual control I will most likely use a fixed time of ~10 minutes. I can then resend when it times out if needed or use the off toggle if less time is desired. SYSTEM FEEDBACK I have been considering adding a voice feedback addition to my install. I have an Arduino controller that reads canned sound files from an SD card. I have been building a circuit that will address various sounds when commanded by the ISY via a multiple output device like the Ezflora or EZIO. When I initially ordered the Ezflora I thought I might use it for that purpose as well as for sprinklers. For now I am converting the (3) unused Ezflora zone (AC)outputs to a (DC)logic ground true signal to address the Arduino. That way the Ezflora can serve both the sprinklers and 3 voice/sound commands. I realize that there will be a limitation on the sounds only working or the sprinklers and not both at the same time. ( due to only 1 output on at a time) The EZIO40 may be an option in the future for additional sound addressing as that would provide 15 possible sound selections. I did not care for the cost of the EZIO8SA when you add the need for a PLM to go with it. It would be nice to be able to address 255 sounds though.

Hello Vstolin, I think you are wise to be concerned about how the system will be accepted by others in the home. Like other members have said I find that my wife is less than interested in any advanced functionality. I try to make any programming changes while she is out of the house. It can be entertaining when I screw up and miss place my "and" , "or " statements and things do not work as intended the first time. She is often less than interested in hearing about new features I intend to implement. What caught my attention was your comments about the sprinkler system. I have a 6 zone controller that works just fine as is. I was concerned about implementing the EZflora due to the lack of an easy to use manual interface. I bought the Ezflora a couple of months ago and am yet to install it. Mostly I had decided to wait for the next irrigation season. I also worried about resale as a potential new owner may not be happy with the learning curve. For that reason I intend to leave the old controller in place so I can easy reconnect it should I sell. I believe a person could run the two in parallel keeping the old system only for manual control if they were careful on the connections. When I do install the Ezflora I will have a 8 button Remotelinc2 as the manual interface. The reason being it will be a great help when working on the sprinkler system heads or blowing out the system. It is so nice to be able to turn valves on/off from outside as needed. I intend to instruct my wife on the remotelinc 2 usage as the manual control interface should she need it. Come to think of it she never really understood the existing Rain Bird controller anyways ( it was not a real great GUI design) so the Remotelinc2 interface should be even easier for her.

hello Greensha, AS you said use the event viewer set to a level 3. Save and report the results when you turn on/off each device in question via the main screen, at the device level. It will display the number of hops used ( left) for each communication attempt. This is a good place to start. The more left ( preferably 2) the better. Does your program use a scene or individual commands to turn things off?

iostream212, Your problem is beginning to sound more like a lockup than a communications reliability issue? When the problem occurs can you manually use the set button to turn the device on/off? If it is truly locked up, possibly due to a turn off transient from the motor, then the suggested filter may suppress the transient. You could also use what is referred to as a snubber. The snubber would attenuate the Insteon signal but only a small amount. TJF1960's suggestion as a test basically uses the long length of wire as a filter. oberkc's suggestion of putting an in-linelinc in the basement ( or feed point) with a normal outlet sounds like a good suggestion as it also does what TJF1960's suggestion did. That way you may not need any additional filter. It also has the advantage of reducing the distance that other devices have to transmit over to reach the pump control.

How exciting to receive a 2420M low battery notification in my email this morning! I had added notifications to all my PIR sensors a while back when I changed most of the batteries. I was really questioning whether or not I would ever actually get an email. I did this morning. When I get a chance I will measure the battery level and replace. Just as another data point for battery threshold information: I woke up and polled the PIR sensor for config data and got a response of 7.3V. Measured the battery with a meter and it read 7.1V

I currently use the AF120 to isolate my computer, printers ... etc from the network and it works as well as a Filterlinc. As Brian noted the Filterlinc is tuned to 120Khz and not 131Khz. Early on in my investigations into Insteon I modified a Filterlinc using using the correct capacitor values for 131.65Khz forming a "SuperFilterlinc" That provided about a 2X improvement over the standard Filterlinc. I only use that device for test purposes after modifying it. For the cost it would have been nice for them to have went the extra step to tune the Filterlinc to Insteon Frequencies.

Thanks for that added input Brian, If it has an opto-coupled, input with the status LED in series on either side of the coupler, that would be expected behavior when running the opto-coupler in its linear region ( using a resistor as opposed to a dry contact closure). It should not affect the minimum pulse time unless the input is very slow rising. When I performed my testing I switched the input with a steadily decreasing pulse width and after each pulse application I monitored to be sure Insteon commands were being generated.

Hello jrainey, I have found Smartlabs to be seriously lacking in details / specifications in lots of areas. Sometimes I wonder if it is not intentional. In this case I cannot see why. I have gotten used to setting up test scenarios to determine these variables the hard way. Without having a large cross section of units to test you still do not end up with a true specification. I read about the sensor you are using and it was interesting. I am assuming you using the tipping bucket scenario? If the bucket size is large enough, and the the IOlinc you purchase missed some pulses you could consider adding a pulse stretcher circuit. Hopefully it would not be required. Best of luck to you

I tested one unit that met your requirement but since Smartlabs does not specify a minimum pulse width there are no guarantees. See this thread: http://forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7994&p=62438&hilit=pulse+width#p62438

Hi MarcArsenault, I am not the best at visualizing an install via a persons descriptions, others probably are. The Smarthome forum has several members that are very good at telling people about things that will hamper communications as well. Since you are technically orientated I recommend making a small sketch detailing what you estimate the wire lengths and routing to be. I found this very helpful in diagnosing my install, especially as your install grows over time and if you encounter more issues. All Insteon devices are not created equal. Some have stronger signal strengths than others and some have varying thresholds of detection. It is very possible for one device to work in any given location and another will not, if the signal strength is marginal. Insteon signal strengths decrease as they propagate through house wiring. There are many devices referred to as signal suckers that then further attenuate the signal ( items that have across the line capacitors in them). You can do a search for those as they have been listed countless times. Since your Install is fairly new I suspect you will require at least a few filterlincs as your system grows. Can we assume you did the 4 tap test to confirm RF coupling is on different phases? Since you are new to this I recommend you do some searching on communications issues. There are many, many posts talking about issues and solutions that do not necessarily include AFCI attenuation. Without test equipment these types of issues are mostly trial and error. Having plug-able devices that you move around to test with are helpful in that regard. You can then move that plug-able device closer and then further away from the service cabinet, on any given circuit, to see where it works and where it might not. Best of luck