jag911 Posted June 11, 2013 Posted June 11, 2013 I just purchased and have been installing the ISY/ELK package to my existing Insteon network, as well as adding many new devices along with it (almost all of them dual band, so effectively i'm expanding my APs at the same time, but i've run with just two for years without issue). Two days ago when i first added devices i was having no (noticeable) issues with my Thermostat in the ISY admin console but saw invalid data in Mobilinc on my phone. After contacting support for Mobilinc (but not yet getting a response) magically everything started working fine day 2. Now day three, The ISY admin console started throwing a fit about the Thermostat (and consequently Mobilinc doesn't have good data since it pulls it from the ISY). I've tried removing and readding, manually linking, discovery linking, and a bunch of things to get it fixed. Unfortunately i'm now at a point where i cannot get the thermostat back into the ISY's database as it's throwing an error that the device link table cannot be determined. Thermostat is a 2441TH v.0D ISY-994i is running latest code: 4.0.5 Event data shows as follows: Tue 06/11/2013 01:51:55 PM : [24 6 33 ] Added to list of devices to link to ISY Tue 06/11/2013 01:51:55 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 24 06 33 0F 0D 00 Tue 06/11/2013 01:51:55 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 24.06.33 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:04 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 24 06 33 0F 0D 00 Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:04 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 24.06.33 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:13 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 24 06 33 0F 0D 00 Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:13 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 24.06.33 0F 0D 00 06 (00) Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:17 PM : [24 6 33 0 ] Failed to add device, reason 3 Tue 06/11/2013 01:52:17 PM : [All ] Writing 0 bytes to devices Anyone have any ideas on how to resolve this? It feels like when i did the removal that the communication didn't succeed in removing the link from the 2441TH's DB... which makes me believe i might have to factory default it? Might try that in a bit. Just looking for any help i can get at this point. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
jag911 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Posted June 11, 2013 Quick update... i did a factory default on the thermostat and now get a "cannot determine Insteon engine" error
Xathros Posted June 11, 2013 Posted June 11, 2013 Air gap a some of your newly installed dualband devices that are near th thermostat and try again. I think you may have too many paths back to the PLM confusing things. -Xathros
jag911 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Posted June 11, 2013 Grrr... So aggravating. I did literally nothing and tried again and now it's working. Took about 20 minutes to put my daughter down for a nap, not in front of the computer... Come back, Add new insteon device, punch in the address and all is well. That makes me believe there is RF interference from something in the house I didn't activate/toggle that now no longer is interfering. Does that sound reasonable? Xathros thanks for the response. I'll try that if this ghost returns. Though this idea scares me a bit. I have six more dual band switchlink dimmers sitting next to me to install, a garage door kit, and an order arriving tomorrow with even more (couple of keypadlincs, an outletlinc, some of the mini wire in modules, etc.). My network isn't that complex yet (27 devices live, 25 scenes, 6 programs)... is the mulitpathing really that big of an issue?!? In looking at the max number of supported devices/scenes of an ISY-994i/pro being 1024 and my little home should be a walk in the park by comparison.
Brian H Posted June 11, 2013 Posted June 11, 2013 By chance. Do you have a baby monitor that uses the 900 MHz Band? Specifically close to 915 MHz Insteon uses.
Xathros Posted June 11, 2013 Posted June 11, 2013 Xathros thanks for the response. I'll try that if this ghost returns. Though this idea scares me a bit. I have six more dual band switchlink dimmers sitting next to me to install, a garage door kit, and an order arriving tomorrow with even more (couple of keypadlincs, an outletlinc, some of the mini wire in modules, etc.). My network isn't that complex yet (27 devices live, 25 scenes, 6 programs)... is the mulitpathing really that big of an issue?!? In looking at the max number of supported devices/scenes of an ISY-994i/pro being 1024 and my little home should be a walk in the park by comparison. No, at least not in that way. If nothing else had changed other than the addition of the new dual band devices, that would indicate a possible issue brought about by that addition. A simple test to see if that is the case would be to airgap (or otherwise disable) those new devices and test again. I HAVE had issues with multiple paths resulting in duplicate messages that get acted upon and have had to code around such problems. Not a huge issue once recognized and understood. -Xathros
jag911 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Posted June 11, 2013 Xathros... Again, much thanks for the insight. I'm certainly not an expert at this new set of toys yet. So thank you... And yes, i agree barring nothing else the additional devices are the most likely candidates for the generation of the problem. So i like the idea of the airgap to weed it out. Hopefully i don't have it return and therefore don't have to try it... Brian... You know we did, right up until this last order... One of the things we've done is replaced our old dying baby monitor with one of Insteon's webcams. So the old stuff is now all in a box. Great idea though!
jag911 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Posted June 11, 2013 Ya, there is definitely something amiss here... Now that the Thermostat is back into the ISY, it's reporting everything for the main unit like humidity, hot/cold setpoints fan mode, etc. But it doesn't know the status of the sub heat/cool controller's nor what the actual status of the unit is (cooling in this case). I've been playing air gap bingo thanks to Xathros' idea... haven't found a source yet. So still searching for an answer.
Xathros Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 If the stat is communicating *some* things and not others, than this is probably not a comm failure but more likely a link record or other configuration issue. Was the Stat in Off mode when you added it? Right click on the Stat's main node and select show device links. When the display is complete click compare. Post results. -Xathros
Xathros Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 I do believe the instructions state that the Stat should be in the Off position during the add process. I have no idea exactly why this is but it may be worth an attempt in removing and re-adding with the stat in the Off position. And, there is a mismatch (and possibly a missing link) in the link records so I think we are on to something here. As evidenced by the links seen below, mine has 4 nodes (Main, Heat, Cool and Fan). What does your show for nodes? This is what mine looks like: -Xathros
jag911 Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 I only have the two nodes under the main unit... heat and cool. hmm.. i think you're onto something. i guess i need to rtfm and maybe try relinking. Will let you know how it goes. Again, awesome help, thank you..
jag911 Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 Same two devices as before, a heat ctl and cool ctl, nothing more. Do you have the 2441TH and if so v.0d? The link database doesn't show delta's now though, that's good!
Xathros Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 No. Mine is an older Venstar but I kink of assumed that they would be similar. At least this time there are no mismatches. Is it reporting correctly now? -Xathros
jag911 Posted June 12, 2013 Author Posted June 12, 2013 Well, that didn't last long... Back to a record mismatch on the same line as shown in the pix above... and consequently the data is out of sync again. :'(
Xathros Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 What was done between the re-add and now that might have changed link records? -Xathros
jag911 Posted June 13, 2013 Author Posted June 13, 2013 Nothing was added or linked to this device. I did do some clean up of naming in the ISY's interface but really not much happened between the two, and i can see it go in and out. Again, i'm a n00b to the ISY at this point, but it looks to me like each time it queries i stand a chance of getting mixed results. For example, as of this morning, it's reading fine again. But i'd bet that before the day is out i'll have lost this info again.
Xathros Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 I find it very strange that you would develop a link mismatch with noting being done to cause it. Now that it is reporting again, do the show device links and compare again. Is there still a mismatch? -Xathros
LeeG Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 jag911 I think the EA versus E2 flag byte of that link record is not the issue. I2CS devices are using the x8 bit for something that has not yet been documented to the general public. That link record is used when the Cool Ctl node is being used as a Controller in a Scene. The link record does not participate in the general communication between the thermostat and the PLM. The symptoms strongly suggest an RF communication problem. The very first post showed the thermostat was not sending back a response to the most basic command which is why Xathros suggested pulling the air gap switches on some of the nearby Dual Band devices. I would look for something that is interfering with RF, cordless phone in the 900 MHz range, baby monitor, etc. My 900 MHz cordless phone operates at well over 1000' so it could even be a neighbor’s phone. If you have a spare Access Point try plugging it in near the thermostat. Also the air gap activity suggested by Xathros is a good idea to see if the issue is too many Dual Band devices in proximity to the thermostat.
LeeG Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Here are some Insteon messages involving a 2441TH. I changed the set point on the thermostat and followed with a Query of the primary node. Note that none of the messages involve Group 1 which is the Group number of the link record with the EA (rather than E2) flag byte. I know that it would be much nicer if I could tell you exactly what that x8 bit means but so far I have not found anyone with Developer access that will identify the use of that bit. Those folks have to sign an NDA so I fully understand not wanting to violate the confidentiality agreement. Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:04 AM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 14 B7 2A 0F 6A 20 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:04 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 14.B7.2A 0F 6A 20 06 (20) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:05 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 14.B7.2A 22.80.0B 2B 6A 38 (38) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:05 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 14.B7.2A-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:05 AM : [ 14 B7 2A 1] CLISPH 56 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:51 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1D 6C D6 1F 2E 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 92 96 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:51 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.6C.D6 1F 2E 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 92 96 06 (02) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:51 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.6C.D6 22.80.0B 2B 2E 02 (02) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:51 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 1D 6C D6 22 80 0B 11 2E 02 01 02 0D 1F 34 30 1C 25 01 0D 8C 11 78 DC Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] CLISPC 56 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] CLISPH 34 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] CLIHUM 37 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [iNST-TX-I2CS] 02 62 1D 6C D6 1F 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.6C.D6 22.80.0B 66 D1 02 (02) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:52 AM : [std-Cleanup Ack] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=2, Hops Left=1 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:53 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.6C.D6 1F 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D2 06 (00) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:53 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.6C.D6 22.80.0B 2B 2E 00 (00) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:53 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [iNST-ERX ] 02 51 1D 6C D6 22 80 0B 11 2E 00 00 01 00 0D 25 03 9C 03 00 64 0A 04 08 01 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [Ext-Direct ] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] CLIMD 2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] CLIFS 8 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] UOM 1 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 1D 6C D6 0F 6A 00 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 1D.6C.D6 0F 6A 00 06 (00) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1D.6C.D6 22.80.0B 2B 6A 36 (36) Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [std-Direct Ack] 1D.6C.D6-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Thu 06/13/2013 11:18:54 AM : [ 1D 6C D6 1] ST 54
Michel Kohanim Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 Hi jag911, What's your ISY's firmware version? With kind regards, Michel
jag911 Posted June 14, 2013 Author Posted June 14, 2013 Thanks LeeG... I chatted with Insteon support today and got a response that the bulk of the signal from their thermostat's goes "toward the front". Having a little knowledge of antenna theory I'm not sure why they'd design something directional but regardless... I did have AP's to the left and right of the device not 4-5'... I had a spare dual band LampLinc laying around and plugged it into the bathroom across the hall from the thermostat. Since then I've yet to have any issues with communication... So there may be something to the information. But the issue has been intermittent so i'm not going to declare success just yet. Michel... I'm running the latest code (4.0.5) Xathros... though it seems to be working after adding the LL directly in front of the thermostat, i still have a record mismatch. So I may end up deleting and re-adding it to get it sync'd again and see if it stays. For now I want to see if i can get through a full day of use without issue before making any more changes. All... Again, much thanks for any input or questions on this topic... I'm learning a lot from it.
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