Autonow Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 I have an 8 button keypadlinc. And I just do not understand how the buttons work. HELP!! For a given button you can have toggle or toggle on or toggle off. Toggle on means if you press it, the state will change to the opposite state. Press once its on press again its off. Toggle on appears to set the switch on but there is no way to set it off. IMO is should be like a momentary on. What I want to do is control a fanlinc. it has 4 states Off, low, med and high. I want each button (4 required) to set the state. Obviously there are many variations (transitions) off to high, high to off, high to med, etc etc and with all this we have the led status of each button (on or off) and to top it all off in addition to the keypadlinc we want to control the fan remotely and have the keypad linc indicate the proper status. Normally I could whip this out in a couple of seconds with a "normal" plc and momentary push buttons. But with the "maintained" nature of the switches I do not have an answer. You never want to use a maintained switch if you want to control from more than 1 location. So how do I do it? Scenes? possibly.. A program will not work because the switches are maintained AND you can not change the state of a switch from a program only the LED status. Also can you explain how grouping works?
LeeG Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 The three KPL button modes are Toggle (default) , non-toggle On and non-toggle Off. As you correctly described the default Toggle mode causes the button to alternately send an On command and Off command with the button LED that follows. Non-Toggle On mode the button always sends an On command. The button LED blinks twice to indicate non-toggle mode and the button LED ends with the LED On. Non-Toggle Off mode the button always sends an Off command. The button LED blinks twice to indicate non-toggle mode and the button LED ends with the LED Off. I think I read a post from you on the Smarthome forum that indicates the KPL buttons that turn On High, Med, Low should not turn the FanLinc Motor Off. Only the KPL button that is designate as Off should turn the FanLinc Motor Off. If a single KPL will be used or additional KPLs are at v.40 firmware or later all can be done with Scenes. If multiple KPLs will be used and one or more are below v.40 ISY Programs will be needed. Assuming a single KPL for now, button C sets High, button D sets Med, button E sets Low, button F sets Off. Four ISY Scenes are required. Button C turns the FanLinc Motor to High. Button C is set to non-toggle On mode so the button cannot turn the FanLinc Motor Off The Scene has Button C as Controller Button D as Responder with 0% On Level Button E as Responder with 0% On Level Button F as Responder with 0% On Level FanLinc Motor as Responder with High On Level Button D turns the FanLinc Motor to Med. Button D is set to non-toggle On mode so the button cannot turn the FanLinc Motor Off The Scene has Button D as Controller Button C as Responder with 0% On Level Button E as Responder with 0% On Level Button F as Responder with 0% On Level FanLinc Motor as Responder with Med On Level Button E turns the FanLinc Motor to Low. Button E is set to non-toggle On mode so the button cannot turn the FanLinc Motor Off The Scene has Button E as Controller Button C as Responder with 0% On Level Button D as Responder with 0% On Level Button F as Responder with 0% On Level FanLinc Motor as Responder with Low On Level Button F turns the FanLinc Motor to Off. Button F is set to non-toggle Off mode so the button turns the FanLinc Motor Off The Scene has Button F as Controller Button C as Responder with 0% On Level Button D as Responder with 0% On Level Button E as Responder with 0% On Level FanLinc Motor as Responder with 0% On Level To add remote control using a Mini-Remote (RemoteLinc2) for example presents some problems because individual Mine-Remote buttons cannot be set to Toggle versus non-toggle mode. All buttons have to function the same way. A 4 Scene Mini-Remote can be used, where only the On buttons are used. Button A would be added as a Controller of the High Scene Button B would be added as a Controller of the Med Scene Button C would be added as a Controller of the Low Scene Button D would be added as a Controller of the Off Scene Note: in toggle mode the state of the LED is the the state of the button. LED On button On, LED Off button Off
Autonow Posted July 26, 2013 Author Posted July 26, 2013 Yes that is exactly what I did! But it does not work. I do not understand the non toggle on mode. If the button is pressed it sends an on status. but once it is on how can the ISY see another transition (on command) if it already on? If I were ever to check the 'status' of a button in a program it would always be on so there would be no transition to evaluate. In the scene example (programed as you described) it all worked once as each non toggle button was set to on. The off worked OK as a nontoggle off. But once all the button were on the fan would only operate on high. Perhaps because it was the "last" scene to be evaluated? I am at version 3 something I will try version 4. Any known elk issues with V4?
Autonow Posted July 26, 2013 Author Posted July 26, 2013 Did a firmware upgrade.. Reprogrammed scenes as described. All work except the lights. all lights.. (off, low med high) come on in low med or high.. off turns them all off. So fan linc works but not kpl.. An fyi the 'program" equal does not work at all... It can not execute the if on statement. Thoughts on writing a program just for the lights? Have them follow the state of the fan?
LeeG Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 "But once all the button were on the fan would only operate on high." Only one KPL button, C or D or E or F in my example should be On at a time. If more than one button is On the Scene 0% On Level was not defined correctly. When Button D is pressed it sends an On command to all the Responders. All the other KPL buttons are Responders with 0% On Level (make sure you clicked on the Red KPL Controller button node name below the Scene name to set the KPL button Responders to 0% On Levels). When KPL button E is pressed it turns On, all the other KPL buttons turn Off and the ISY will mark all the other buttons Off (assuming the Scenes have been defined correctly). The FanLinc Motor node will see the On command from button D turning the FanLinc Motor to Med. The FanLinc Motor node will see the On command from button E turning the FanLinc Motor to Low. If button E is pressed again another On command is sent to the FanLinc Motor node and the FanLinc Motor speed will remain Low. EDIT: A Program is not needed if the Scenes are defined correctly.
Autonow Posted July 27, 2013 Author Posted July 27, 2013 I got it... I almost did everything right the first time. I was clicking on the scene and setting all the levels. NOT the controller. Once I did that it worked So the question needs to be asked what the difference between the "scene" levels and the "controller" levels? Thanks for your help! Problem solved a good lesson
LeeG Posted July 27, 2013 Posted July 27, 2013 In Insteon every Controller has a unique set of Responder values. Selecting the Scene name itself makes the PLM the Controller. These Responder values are in effect when the Scene name is controlled through the Admin Console or an ISY Program. Each additional Controller defined for the Scene (Red node names below the Scene name) have unique Responder values that are in effect when that Controller button/paddle is pressed. Each Controller can have totally different Responder values. For example button C might turn some Responders On to 50%, others to 20% On. Button D might turn the same Responders to a completely different set of On Levels.
Autonow Posted July 27, 2013 Author Posted July 27, 2013 fascinating! that answers a lot of questions.. So really a scene has 2 controllers. The one in red (it has a set of values) and the PLM with its set of values. So if from a program I set a scene "on' I will get the "PLM/scene" values and not the red controller values? is this correct? What do I get when I set the scene off? does nothing? or sets all the "responders" off. From a program i can adjust scene values (which are independent of the red controller values) cool...
LeeG Posted July 27, 2013 Posted July 27, 2013 "So if from a program I set a scene "on' I will get the "PLM/scene" values and not the red controller values? is this correct?" Exactly right. You've got it. "What do I get when I set the scene off? does nothing? or sets all the "responders" off." All the Responders turn Off. With an On command the On Level for each Responder is unique. Some Responders can be turned On Full, some set at a lower On Level, some even turned Off with a 0% On Level (as we did with the other KPL buttons). There is no variation with an Off command. All Responders turn Off. The Adjust Scene program statement can be used to alter individual Responder On Level and Ramp Rate values. It can also be used to alter the Local On Level and Ramp Rate. The Adjust Scene specifies the Controller, the Responder, and the new On Level or Ramp Rate.
noobmuch Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Hi, I have a similar situation. Do I need to have the fan light in the scene for "on level applied locally"? I was under the impression that without the local on level applied, there would not be power to the fan linc. I have it set up that way in another room and it works fine. At the KPL but for some reason I cannot get the fan scene buttons to work consistently. I notice that sometimes when the light of button is pressed both lights on the fanlic turn off.
Xathros Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Hi noobmuch- It sounds to me like you have your KPL load wire providing power to the fanlinc. This should be wired so that the fanlink has constant (not switched) power and the KPL load wire is capped. The KPL buttons are then linked to the fanlink nodes with scenes. -Xathros
Autonow Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 I fixed my issues. In short I was not setting the controller values correctly. First I ***-u-me you connected every thing correctly. On My KPL I use the top two buttons as a dimmer, right button dim up the left button dim down. the next 4 buttons are fan off, low , med and high, and the 7th button is fwd and reverse. It takes 6 scenes to accomplish all of the above. My mistake is where to make the scene settings. When you click on the scene these are General settings or the "current settings". If you click on the controller (red) these are the controller settings. You need 2 controllers one for on and one for off for the light. The key is to set the Button characteristic for the on off buttons. Click on the button you want (not the controller) and set the toggle mode.. the off button is non-toggle off and the on button is non-toggle on (use similar setting for the fan non toggle off for the off button and non toggle on for low med and hi) I used a single button for fwd/rev so i left that on at toggle. Once the buttons are set create your scenes. Set the max min on levels at the controller (in red) double click on the buttons are either full on or full off. Press and hold will ramp the level.
Xathros Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Autonow- How did you accomplish the fwd/reverse aspect of this. As far as I know, the Fanlinc does not support fwd/rev. I am quite interested in gaining that capability. -Xathros
Autonow Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 Its quite simple generally on a fan you have 3 wires, a common or center tap. and 2 other wires. Usually the run capacitor is connected across these two other wires. you connect the common to your 120V neutral (should already be done that way) and your power (wire from the fanlinc) to ONE of the other wires. One wire will make the fan go one direction the other will go the opposite direction. you can test this before you spend any money! So to add forward and reverse function you need an On/Off microlinc and a 120V SPDT realy. ( I like the ones from automation direct.. less than $10 with the socket.) connect the micro link to operate the relay. Connect the fanlinc to the common of the relay (not the coil) and the two fan wires to the other two relay poles. (note the capacitor will now be wired across these two switched terminals) Now program a button to operate the microlinc. Add a delay to allow the fan to slow down before reversing!
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