Trouble Adding 2-Wire (RF) SwitchLinc Dimmers

[RiderMayBail]

Insteon experience: Novice to Intermediate

ISY experience: Novice

 

I am having some trouble adding some new switches into my network. I'm new to the ISY controller, but was able to get my existing network up and running from my old controller (SmartlInc Controller 2412N) to my new ISY994i.

 

Before adding any new switches, my INSTEON setup was like this.

ISY994i and Dual Band PLM (both in office on 2nd floor)

2x Dual Band SwitchLinc Dimmer switches (Master Bedroom (2nd floor) and Foyer (1st floor)

IOLinc and sensor for garage door

 

This all has worked fine, and today I tried adding 2 new 2-wire switches that use RF only communications

I installed one switch in kitchen and other in dining room (both on 1st floor)

 

I was able to add the kitchen switch to the network in the ISY admin console, but the dining room switch would not add. The ISY kept saying that it couldn't be added "Could not determine Insteon Engine".

 

After numerous attempts, I swapped out the dining room switch with another 2-wire switch I have, thinking that maybe the other one wasn't functioning properly. But I received the same results. I then decided that if it didn't work properly, I wouldn't waste the switchlinc switch and put in a regular dimmer switch.

 

When I returned to the PC, I can no longer communicate with the kitchen switch. After a few attempts to get them communicating again, I deleted the switch and tried to add it again, but now it says it can't determine the Insteon engine.

 

I would think that both of these switches are well within RF range of the dual band switch in the foyer, both within 15 feet or so. And I can't figure out why the kitchen would need the dining switch for RF communications. Not knowing the range of these devices, I would still imagine that the upstairs dual band switch and the PLM are both within range as the house is not that large (early 80's tri-level). It's less than 50 feet from the dining room to the office upstairs.

 

Perhaps I'm going about this the wrong way, or am just missing something completely. Any help from you more knowledgeable folks would be great.

 

Thank you

Mike

[oberkc]

I don't think you are going about this incorrectly. Perhaps the range of the nearby devices is not as good as one would hope, or that installation factors (metal boxes, orientation) have limited the range?

 

The first things I would check, based upon your post:

 

a) do you have the latest software for the ISY? What version do you have?

what other computer devices are in the office? UPS? Surge Suppressors? Routers? Computers? Modems? Do you use any filters?

c) have you actually confirmed that you have dual-band devices on both legs of your electrical system and that they are communicating with each other?

[RiderMayBail]

I appreciate the feedback, I'll try to answer the best I can.

 

I don't think you are going about this incorrectly. Perhaps the range of the nearby devices is not as good as one would hope, or that installation factors (metal boxes, orientation) have limited the range?

 

My switchboxes are metal, so perhaps that will impact the range, but the kitchen switch is about 12' from the foyer switch. I can't imagine an RF device that can't reach 12', even with obstacles and such.

 

The first things I would check, based upon your post:

 

a) do you have the latest software for the ISY? What version do you have?

what other computer devices are in the office? UPS? Surge Suppressors? Routers? Computers? Modems? Do you use any filters?

c) have you actually confirmed that you have dual-band devices on both legs of your electrical system and that they are communicating with each other?

 

a) Probably not, it's pretty much factory at this point. Firmware is Inteon_UD994 v4.0.5. I'll have to look into updating this.

 

b)There is a surge protector power strip plugged into the other outlet of the receptacle where the PLM is located, but the PLM is plugged directly into wall. In the area of the PLM there is a computer, switch, router and printer. Another computer, printer and router on the other side of the office. I have no filters.

 

c) This is where my limited Insteon knowledge is going to hurt. I don't know. All I know is that the foyer switch is a dual band device (INSTEON 2477D), so it should function as an access point for the RF devices, and I can communicate with that without problems.

 

 

One thing that I did not mention in my initial post, and it might have some implications, is that the dining room and kitchen lights are on the same circuit. So it is that I am able to communicate with devices on that circuit. Though if they are RF devices does the phase they are on even matter?

 

 

EDIT: So for the heck of it, I decided to try and add the kitchen switch again, and it came right up in the ISY, and I can control it normally. Is this normal for switches to lose communication randomly like that?

[LeeG]

Dual Band devices inside a metal box have a much restricted range and can be directional because RF does not travel through a metal box. Dual Band devices operate at low power to avoid disruption of a neighbors system.

 

The surge suppressor power strip and other devices powered from the PLM plug point need to be on a FilterLinc. The surge suppressor is likely reducing the PLM signal.

 

The work/not work situation is likely a poor phase coupling situation. Other 240v appliances can provide coupling while they are running, losing that coupling when they turn Off.

 

Get a few FilterLincs, putting one at the PLM plug point to isolated the other equipment behind the filter. Get a pair of Access Points for positive coupling. They can be moved around to help get good RF to the 2-wire devices as well as provide the coupling.

[RiderMayBail]

Thank you for the feedback, and it does make sense. I didn't realize that these used such a low power RF signal.

 

Since I can't keep spending $100+ every time I turn around trying to get this stuff working the way I want it, I'm going to wait a few days on ordering the FilterLinc and an access points. I have an order coming in this week, that has another dual band device, so that may help with some of my problems.

 

I'll also run the check on the 2 existing dual band switches to see if they are on the same leg or are bridging.

 

 

Question on the FilterLinc. I was looking at the instructions, to see what I would lose in the way of outlets in the office. They are at a bit of a premium already. The instructions say they don't recommend stacking the devices, but then it says you can stack a device on the FilterLinc. Do most people plug in the filterlinc, then plug the PLM into the unfiltered plug on the FilterLinc then the power strip (or whatever) into the filtered plug on the bottom?

 

Otherwise I need to figure out other solutions as well.

 

 

Thanks again to both of you.

[oberkc]

I can speak about most people, only me.

 

I have one case where I use a filterlinc, then plug an insteon device into the pass-through outlet. That works fine.

 

Other times, I would use a simple powerstrip (no surge suppression) and plug filters and insteon devices into the powerstrip.

 

If you care to confirm some theories before you run out and spend money on filterlincs, get an extension cord and plug it into an outlet in another room and on another circuit. Bring the other end to your office and plug in the PLM to the extension cord. Do things work any better?

[LeeG]

Generally stacking Insteon devices is not a good idea. However, the FilterLinc is okay to stack as it generates no heat.

[Xathros]

I have my PLM stacked on a filterlinc then my ISY, Modem, Switch, Router all on a power strip plugged into the filtered outlet and that works just fine.

 

-Xathros

[RiderMayBail]

So I've expanded the system, and I still can't get this working correctly.

 

The house is a tri-level house where the upper floor is directly above the lower floor (1/2 way underground) on one side, and the main level is halfway between the levels (ground level) on the side

 

The office (upper floor) has the PLM

- PLM is stacked onto a FilterLinc, with the PC equipment on that outlet being on the filtered outlet.

 

Master Bedroom (upper floor) has a dual band SwitchLinc dimmer

- This switch seems to be working correctly

 

Living Room (main level) has a dual band SwitchLinc dimmer

-This switch seems to be working correctly

 

Living Room also has a dual band LampLinc dimmer module

-This module seems to be working correctly

 

Kitchen (main level) has a 2-wire (RF only) dimmer switch

- This switch seems to be working correctly

 

Dining Room (main level) has a 2-wire (RF only) dimmer switch

- I cannot add this device to my ISY. Says it is "Unable to determine the Insteon Engine"

 

Dining Room also has an RF access point

 

Garage has an I/O Linc for the garage door and an LED bulb. These both work correctly.

 

I've also added an access point to the lower level of the house. So I should have pretty good coverage of RF, and the house is not that large.

 

 

I cannot seem to figure out why I cannot communicate with the 2-wire switch in the dining room. The access point in the dining room is plugged in on the opposite wall, which is only 10 feet away, so they are even facing each other. The LamLinc in the living room is also facing the switch in the dining room and is only about 12 feet away.

 

 

As a side note, I put one of the access points into phase detection mode, and walked through the house plugging in the other. Every outlet I tried caused the second AP to blink, indicating the same phase. I tried outlets in every room, and every one of them had the same result. I stopped detection and moved the first AP to a different outlet and started over, getting the same result. I did notice that the SwitchLinc in the living room was also blinking during phase detection, but the other did not, so I believe this means they are on different phases. However, I don't know how to confirm if they can actually communicate with each other, aside from teh fact that I can control both of them with the ISY as expected.

 

 

So I think I've addressed the suggestions made by the responders, and still cannot seem to get this thing working.

 

Thanks

Mike

[LeeG]

The second Access Point blinking means it is receiving the RF test message from the other Access Point. The blinking does not indicate same or opposite phase. What color is the second Access Point LED when blinking? Does the color of the LED change as moved to various outlets around the house?

Green means opposite phase, Red indicates same phase.

[kaphely]

I had trouble linking RF dimmers recently. One of them linked just fine but the other I had to leave it hanging outside the electrical box for it to link. Once linked I installed it in the box and it worked fine since. So it seems that linking needs a stronger RF signal that my metal box was attenuating or something.

Also try to factory reset the one that won't link then try linking it again. It might help.

[RiderMayBail]

The second Access Point blinking means it is receiving the RF test message from the other Access Point. The blinking does not indicate same or opposite phase. What color is the second Access Point LED when blinking? Does the color of the LED change as moved to various outlets around the house?

Green means opposite phase, Red indicates same phase.

 

Interesting, I was following the instructions that came with the access points for identifying the phases, which says any color blinking means it's on the same phase. Looking at the ones that are on the SmartHome site, it says something different, so I'll go through that process again tonight.

 

I had trouble linking RF dimmers recently. One of them linked just fine but the other I had to leave it hanging outside the electrical box for it to link. Once linked I installed it in the box and it worked fine since. So it seems that linking needs a stronger RF signal that my metal box was attenuating or something.

Also try to factory reset the one that won't link then try linking it again. It might help.

 

I've thought about this, and I'll give it a try, if moving the APs around doesn't work.

 

 

Thanks

[macburn]

RiderMayBail - I am having this exact problem with a lot of my 2-wire dimmers.  Can you report back about what, if any, solutions you found?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi macburn,

 

Please do not hesitate to contact our support team (links below) in case we can be of any assistance.

 

With kind regards,

Michel