ISY-994i and Insteon Hub

[barrygordon]

Is it possible to use the ISY994i and the Insteon Hub at the same time on the same LAN?  I have been sent an Insteon Hub for evaluation but my home is all controlled by the ISY994i. Will there be any issues if I have them both on at the same time?

[Xathros]

As long as you are not trying to control the same devices with both controllers, you should be fine.  A device should only be linked with one HA controller.  If moving a device from one controller to the other, a factory reset should be done on the device after removing from one controller and before adding to the other.

 

-Xathros

[Teken]

Once you try out the HUB, you will notice some pretty cool features and how the UI is designed. Afterwards, when the novelty wares off it will be clear the ISY-994 Series Controller will be the decisive solution to link, control, and automate your home.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Teken

[MustangChris04]

Once you try out the HUB, you will notice some pretty cool features and how the UI is designed. Afterwards, when the novelty wares off it will be clear the ISY-994 Series Controller will be the decisive solution to link, control, and automate your home.

 

I wish I could agree with this statement 100%, but unfortunately I can't. Yes, switching from the HUB to the ISY has drastically improved my home automation especially with all the custom programming I can do. But I am now at a loss without a clean mobile application that has a decent UI. There were also features in HouseLinc that are not available in the ISY. The only thing out there for the ISY is MobilLinc and their UI looks hideous; bulky, slow, buggy, and not wife approved. Definitely not something that I'd want to be displayed on an in-wall tablet. I'm in the process of using the iRule builder to create an UI that is tasteful. I hope it can do everything I want or I'll be creating an android app. UDI has the hardware, but where's the software? The home automation industry is really picking up pace; I don't want to get left behind with great hardware and no software to control it with. 

[barrygordon]

I was asked to try out the Insteon hub. I have no intention of using it to replace the ISY994i. I think I will pass as what I have works too well and I don't want to screw it up.

 

I tried iRule but it was not powerful or flexible enough for my needs. I settled on the CommandFusion iViewer and guiDesigner. I have 5 wall mounted iPads that interface to every control system in my home; the ISY for lighting, Autelis Jandy for pool control, EDS one-wire controller for all one-wire devices (currently only temperature sensors); Homeseer for the security system, and time based scheduling (I could have used the ISY for that but it was already operating on Homeseer). There are sophisticated iPad screens for every function. The CommandFusion site has an article I wrote that describes the iPad system with pictures of the screens.

 

I am currently developing my own HVAC control system as I am not happy with the Insteon thermostats, hence the temperature sensors in every room.

 

The iPads are event driven by the controllers. They subscribe to the ISY, and get UDP/JSON messages from the other controllers. There is full touch control of everything including sophisticated sliders for lighting with full dynamic feedback employing animated icons. CallerID is handled by Homeseer and messages sent to the iPads for display and simultaneous announcement over the announcement speakers in every room. The iPads can run any scene on the ISY or any program.

 

It took me about 18 months to get it all done and that was before I ever owned an iPad, an ISY or an Insteon device. I had a lot of learning hills to climb, but was a professional programmer all my life. Since I am getting OT, I can be reached via email to me (barry) at the-gordons.net if any one wants to discuss further.

 

Thanks for all the responses.

[MustangChris04]

Hi Barry, 

 

Thanks for the post! I did not know about CommandFusion until now. I may have to reconsider iRule before I get too far into it. Is CommandFusion more capable with the ISY than iRule? Do they provide the GUI elements or will I need to spend time to create them myself? And last question, do they require any of their hardware to use their application to integrate with the ISY or any IP based home theater equipment? Thanks!

[paulbates]

The hub is extremely lightweight functionality wise. While it works well, its no comparison to the ISY. it has schedules, does notifications and has simple smart phone apps to turn things on and off. Its essentially an Ethernet connected smartlinc.

 

Its main advantages are that its wired network connected and its x10 signaling seems stronger. A homeseer developer modified his plugin to interface with it and it works very well, its is feasible that the ISY could be updated to interface to it via ET.

 

The disadvantage is that it must be polled via a rest type interface to detect insteon network changes and that can add a slight delay. I did some tests and its not as bad as I would have thought, but measurable. The flip side is that its more reliable than the (non ISY) USB PLM i replaced with it.

 

The way i use it is to control an outletlinc that my current server plugs into. I can remotely access that via on the insteon hub and reboot my server without losing control.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Edited July 18, 2014 by pbibm

[paulbates]

Is it possible to use the ISY994i and the Insteon Hub at the same time on the same LAN? ... Will there be any issues if I have them both on at the same time?

One way i have done this is to use the hub to send me text messages when the iolinc on my garage opens and closes. I also have my insteon smoke bridge send its battery panic messages and alerts via the hub. These devices are also linked to a separate plm that has computer control of them. I have had this set up for several months with no problems.

 

Insteon is controlled by links... its robust, but the plm is just another device with links in it... while it does manage scenes, the main difference is that the PLM that can be manipulated by a computer, and report insteon network traffic to the device connected to it.

 

I don't think you want schedules on the hub and your programming on your isy to the same devices. That will be confusing to understand what is actually happening. I would pick a single lamp (or something) and choose to control it via the hub.

 

Per comments above, I think you will be "underwhelmed" by the hub. It is very simplistic and has schedules, but none of the advanced programming features of the ISY.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Edited July 19, 2014 by pbibm

[NHWA]

I have to start off with saying that I love my ISY, but posts like this are becoming more common and for a reason.  The home automation industry is picking up steam.  Controllers are coming out every day that are paired with very nice GUIs.  So far, the controllers have been less sophisticated and the GUIs lacking customization.  However, at the end of the day, the company that will succeed will have an ISY like level of customization paired with a more robust mobile GUI that is easily customizable without requiring advanced programming.  I know resources are limited and I don't want UD to be less available but the last few months are really indicating that without a software companion solution, ISY is vulnerable to a disruptive force in the industry that can enter and quickly gain market share.

[MustangChris04]

I have to start off with saying that I love my ISY, but posts like this are becoming more common and for a reason.  The home automation industry is picking up steam.  Controllers are coming out every day that are paired with very nice GUIs.  So far, the controllers have been less sophisticated and the GUIs lacking customization.  However, at the end of the day, the company that will succeed will have an ISY like level of customization paired with a more robust mobile GUI that is easily customizable without requiring advanced programming.  I know resources are limited and I don't want UD to be less available but the last few months are really indicating that without a software companion solution, ISY is vulnerable to a disruptive force in the industry that can enter and quickly gain market share.

+1, you are absolutely correct. 

[Teken]

I have to start off with saying that I love my ISY, but posts like this are becoming more common and for a reason.  The home automation industry is picking up steam.  Controllers are coming out every day that are paired with very nice GUIs.  So far, the controllers have been less sophisticated and the GUIs lacking customization.  However, at the end of the day, the company that will succeed will have an ISY like level of customization paired with a more robust mobile GUI that is easily customizable without requiring advanced programming.  I know resources are limited and I don't want UD to be less available but the last few months are really indicating that without a software companion solution, ISY is vulnerable to a disruptive force in the industry that can enter and quickly gain market share.

 

 

+1, you are absolutely correct. 

 

+2, and fully agree with this view and sentiment. 

 

In previous replies from UDI they indicated their primary goal was to invest their development time into the hardware / firmware. They indicated they wanted other 3rd party developers to grow and make the front end (GUI).

 

Other forum ISY members have since released some pretty sharp UI / GUI interfaces.

 

But at the end of the day the base ISY interface requires more polish and refinements which can be easily managed, programmed, and deployed for the end user. Some of the programming elements are not intuitive and require lots of pre-reading and trial and error.

 

Its safe to say the ISY-994 Series Controller is not 100% geared to the novice in some aspects. But, the base system does operate out of the box well. Its when you want to initiate more powerful logic / control / programming. 

 

This is where many, such as myself, fall short in terms of using it in a point and shoot method. Sometimes the amount of invested time and trial and error is really mind numbing to say the least.   

[io_guy]

For me, the interface is a far 2nd to functionality.

The big thing that keeps me from even trying another solution is that everything new that comes out seems to rely on the cloud.

 

I'm not budging until something comes out that is non-cloud and has the ability for me to write native modules.

[barrygordon]

MustangChris04,

 

I haven't looked at iRule in a few years so I do not know how far they have progressed. With CommandFusion (CF) there are no built in modules yet, but there are lots of examples and some systems posted on their Github. There are two ways you can use CF with no or very little JavaScript code or JavaScript based. I do the later, all my systems are JavaScript based.  You do not need to use any of the CF hardware with their software. They are in the process of getting bugs out of their Android viewer, the IOS viewer is very stable. The guiDesigner is where you build your project. The same output file runs on all of the IOS devices and Android devices. I have no experience with the Android side of things.

 

When I say the same file runs on all IOS devices that is true if you code it that way. Obviously you might need to have code based on screen size and resolution but all of the data regarding the platform the code is executing on is available at runtime as function calls, so the code can be developed to be device independent. Graphic resources (images) are kept separate from code and obviously images and page layout will need to change between things like an iPad and an iPhone/iPod. Support id very good with a large forum like this one that the developers are very active on.

 

My system is run from a JSON configuration file that describes all the devices that I own including the ISY controlled devices and specifies how feedback is to be handled in a graphics sense for each device (e.g. a light switch/dimmer). The projects know of no devices and handles all devices via IP via a wi-fi connection, Apple IOS forces this. You need things like a Global Cache iTach to do IR or serial IO or you could do IR through the ISY.  I use the Global Cache approach. 

 

The heart of my system is an ISY interface module written in JavaScript. At startup it grabs all the ISY configuration information from the ISY and sets up internal tables on the iPad to handle all the feedback. It then subscribes to the ISY getting the status of everything the ISY controls. My ISY has 155 devices (93 unique), 94 scenes and 20 programs, so it is IMHO a non trivial system. Each iPad keeps its ISY subscription connection open so  it gets immediate feedback when things change. The feedback process then uses the configuration information to adjust the graphics even if the page is not visible on the screen. There are other interface modules I have written for the control of devices using IR, Pool/SPA control, etc. Generally the iPad is just the UI the actual control and event management/reporting is done by other control systems. If you are using my approach you better know JavaScript or be willing to spend the time top learn it. It will be time well spent if your hobby is Home Automation.

 

The one change I would like to see UD make in the ISY is to allow, as an option, feedback (subscriptions) to be broadcast over UDP to all hosts on the LAN using JSON format. Obviously this would not work for IOS devices not on the LAN but rather access the ISY through the Internet. Each message would be sent n times with the same sequence number.  Larger values of n for cases where the LAN traffic is not friendly to UDP.  Autelis did this for their pool controller at my request, but did not use JSON format. This cuts down traffic for me and would IMHO simplify things on the UD side also. I generally use n=2, but could probably get away with n=1.

 

Hope that helps. My web site www.the-gordons.net has a document describing in detail the system with many screen snapshots.

[paulbates]

I'm coming to ISY from another package that is windows / .net based. The appeal to me of ISY is:

 

1) The product works and is solid, because...

 

2) How ISY is run like a business. Evidence is that this board is active, helpful and the company owners are fully engaged. Requests are not only listened to, but responded to. Changes are not made that are beyond a solid grasp of delivering something that works and plans for supporting it. The value of this foundation can't be overstated, and compared to the competition, is done very well.

 

3) Getting out of the windows server management business. I'm going to the ISY and and a NAS.

 

I see the interface aspects coming with time, but my experience is you need to build your HA solution on rock, and product management is the core of that. 

Edited July 19, 2014 by pbibm

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone, thanks so very much for all the feedback.

 

barrygordon, have you tried our websocket implementation so that you do not have to poll for status updates anymore (using AJAX/HTML5)?

 

I am not going to give any excuses for our GUI. Admin Console was designed for configuration and the default AJAX interface was designed for quick access and control. We tried the dashboard which does depend on Java and thus not mobile friendly. 

 

Throughout the years, many times we dabbled in UI alas since most of us engineers we didn't have the artistic ability to come up with a pretty interface. As business, thus, we had to make a decision between adding more functionality vs. hiring UI experts. We chose the former.

 

In the meantime, we have added a lot of functionality to allow easy integration with ISY (including websockets) and developers guides. We do welcome and eagerly help anyone/group who would want to make a nice UI for ISY.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[barrygordon]

Michel, I am very pleased with the API you provide, and I do not need you to be providing a UI (User Interface) other than what you have.  I say that from my perspective and how I do things in my home. 

 

I am with many who have expressed the opinion that they do not want a cloud service involved in the control of their home or in fact any thing else in their home.

 

I do not poll the ISY except when the iPads start up, and then I would not call it a poll. I request, using the REST interface, over TCP all the configuration that I need for my UI. I then subscribe to the ISY (from each iPad) and get status as things change with no further polls.

 

I have debated releasing the ISY interface I developed for the CommandFusion systems on the IOS and android devices, but have not decided either way.

 

I am not that familiar with the use of AJAX and what you have implemented but if you point me to a reference I am sure I can figure it out.  I will look at the wiki.

 

This thread has drifted away from my original question.  I was asking the question since a friend, who is an Insteon aficionado, asked me to and sent me one. I had no intention of using it in my home as the ISY is totally suited to my needs. I just wanted to make sure that if I plugged it in I would not be asking for trouble with the ISY or the devices.  I got the answer I was looking for and the hub is back in its box.

 

I still would like to see a UDP broadcast capability as I mentioned. I would not use UDP for life critical events since it is a best effort delivery. All I would want is exactly what I get on a subscription when a status change occurs, with an added parameter.  The added parameter is a monotonic increasing sequence number that changes for each message that is not a repeat of a message to enhance delivery prospects. Repeated messages would have the same sequence number so the receiver could trash them very quickly if that message has already been processed. There is a lot less overhead all around with UDP, on the server, in the client and on the LAN.

 

While you are here I have a slight question but since it is a simple question a wholly different subject i'll post it in a new thread.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi barrygordon,

 

Thank you!

 

If you already subscribe to ISY, then websockets is not necessary. Basically websockets allow you to subscribe (have a persistent connection) using Javascript/HTML5.

 

With respect to UDP, the major issue is not reliability but security. i..e all devices (including malicious ones) will have a copy of all your events and then can decipher what's going on such as alarm is on/off or whether or not you are home.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[barrygordon]

I respectfully disagree.  I use the broadcast address for the LAN 192.168.1.255 which is a non routable address on the Internet.  The house router will never send it out of the WAN port, but will send it to all the LAN side ports.  All switches will also send that address to all ports on the switch. UDP using the LAN broadcast address is quite safe since it never leaves the LAN.  I do agree that if there is a malicious device in my home that is listening for UDP messages that will be a problem.  Shame on me if that is the case.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi barrygordon,

 

I am specifically talking about malicious devices in the LAN. Not the WAN.

 

With kind regards,
Michel

[barrygordon]

Someone just reminded me of this thread which I have not been to in quite a while.

 

Michel,  I have no sympathy for any individual who will tolerate a malicious device on their private LAN space.  I keep extremely tight control over my LAN and over my connection to the Internet, so I am able to operate a little less stringently (security wise) on the LAN. I do use passwords but they are not too complex, and all the computers can see each other and reference information stored on their neighbors. Last time I checked and nothing has been changed that I know of, the only port visible to outside my house is port 80 to allow others to get to my webserver. No other ports should be visible, i.e. responsive, but I have not checked in a while. Need to do that.

 

I recently made some changes to my systems. With regard to the ISY I now use the heartbeat and if an iPad loses the heartbeat for 2 minutes it will re-subscribe to the ISY.  That is working very nicely.

 

I finally broke down and bought an iPhone 5s retiring my Razr flip phone. I did this so I could run all of my house control that is on the iPad on the iPhone as my "Portable" around the house device. I found out I could get a contract that costs me $57 a month with all the voice/text I need and a very small amount of Data. On the iPhone I turned off cellular so that the Internet hungry apps only ran in my home or at a wi-fi hotspot which there are tons of these days.

 

The CommandFusion system only required that I redesign the graphics, as all of the JavaScript code on which my iPad systems are based ran just fine with almost no change. Where there was a slight difference required in the operation of some section of JavaScript I merely checked to see what the code was running on, iPad vs iPhone and proceeded accordingly. The app runs in multitasking mode on both the iPad and iPhone so it is always running in the background when the device is on, but goes to sleep when it is off. The CF system supplies a guiResumed event when the app is once again active. I use this to re-subscribe the iPhone to the ISY. Works perfectly. Not needed for the iPad as they are never turned off, just have the backlight is extinguished.

 

A significant reason why I chose the ISY over the Insteon Hub was the support provided by the staff at UDI and the members of this forum. When I have questions/problems I bring them here and they get traction almost immediately and resolved almost as quickly.

[Teken]

Someone just reminded me of this thread which I have not been to in quite a while.

 

Michel,  I have no sympathy for any individual who will tolerate a malicious device on their private LAN space.  I keep extremely tight control over my LAN and over my connection to the Internet, so I am able to operate a little less stringently (security wise) on the LAN. I do use passwords but they are not too complex, and all the computers can see each other and reference information stored on their neighbors. Last time I checked and nothing has been changed that I know of, the only port visible to outside my house is port 80 to allow others to get to my webserver. No other ports should be visible, i.e. responsive, but I have not checked in a while. Need to do that.

 

I recently made some changes to my systems. With regard to the ISY I now use the heartbeat and if an iPad loses the heartbeat for 2 minutes it will re-subscribe to the ISY.  That is working very nicely.

 

I finally broke down and bought an iPhone 5s retiring my Razr flip phone. I did this so I could run all of my house control that is on the iPad on the iPhone as my "Portable" around the house device. I found out I could get a contract that costs me $57 a month with all the voice/text I need and a very small amount of Data. On the iPhone I turned off cellular so that the Internet hungry apps only ran in my home or at a wi-fi hotspot which there are tons of these days.

 

The CommandFusion system only required that I redesign the graphics, as all of the JavaScript code on which my iPad systems are based ran just fine with almost no change. Where there was a slight difference required in the operation of some section of JavaScript I merely checked to see what the code was running on, iPad vs iPhone and proceeded accordingly. The app runs in multitasking mode on both the iPad and iPhone so it is always running in the background when the device is on, but goes to sleep when it is off. The CF system supplies a guiResumed event when the app is once again active. I use this to re-subscribe the iPhone to the ISY. Works perfectly. Not needed for the iPad as they are never turned off, just have the backlight is extinguished.

 

A significant reason why I chose the ISY over the Insteon Hub was the support provided by the staff at UDI and the members of this forum. When I have questions/problems I bring them here and they get traction almost immediately and resolved almost as quickly.

 

I believe speaking for myself solely.

 

I would love to try and sample what you have for the iPhone / iPad if its consumer ready now for trials. 

[barrygordon]

Please contact me directly about this. My name is barry and I own the domain the-gordons.net so my email should be obvious.

 

I normally do not release the things I develop for the iPad/iPhone as I take the support issue very seriously.  I am waiting to see what CF is going to do about allowing for support of "Mudules" before I make a final decision.

 

Do you use CF at this time?  Are you fluent in JavaScript?

[Teken]

Please contact me directly about this. My name is barry and I own the domain the-gordons.net so my email should be obvious.

 

I normally do not release the things I develop for the iPad/iPhone as I take the support issue very seriously.  I am waiting to see what CF is going to do about allowing for support of "Mudules" before I make a final decision.

 

Do you use CF at this time?  Are you fluent in JavaScript?

 

Hello Barrygordon,

 

I will engage you directly about this matter at the e-mail alias you have indicated above.

[Jamison_IO]

From the dead...

 

Has there been any updates on this topic? It appears that Insteon is doing some really great stuff with their hub and it would be nice to use it in conjunction with or in parallel with the ISY - thanks.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Jamison_IO,

 

No integration with INSTOEN HUB is planned.

 

ISY now works with Echo just in case that's what you are interested in.

 

With kind regards,

Michel