Scene Membership for a device: Controller, Responder, or Both

[technoroom]

Hi. I'm migrating an Insteon setup from Smarthome's "HouseLinc" software over to ISY994. I've noticed that the ISY admin console appears to use a different definition of a "controller" within a scene than Smarthome/HouseLinc does.

 

HouseLinc allows each device within a scene to be a

• Controller (only)
• Responder (only)
• Both (a controller AND responder).

ISY appears to allow only the last two membership options: "Responder" and "Both" (the admin console calls the latter option "Controller" but as I will explain in a moment, that's not really accurate). Again, ISY uses the term "controller" for something that's BOTH a controller and responder, but that's not actually correct. A true "controller" will send commands to other devices within the scene but will not act as a responder to the other devices.

 

I have several scenes where certain Keypad buttons within the scene act as controllers to the scene only, without acting as responders to other Keypad buttons within that same scene. I want this behavior because I am controlling the lamps on the keypad buttons from a separate scene (driven from an IOLinc module sensor input) and do not want the keypad buttons to light up or turn off in response to other buttons being pressed within the scene that the buttons belong to as controllers (only).

 

To summarize, I would like to be able to define a device within a scene (e.g. a keypad button) to be able to control other devices within the scene, but not respond to commands from other devices within the scene. This is trivial to set up using Smarthome's HouseLinc software but does not appear to be possible from the ISY admin console.

 

Any suggestions or comments welcome and appreciated...Thanks!

[PurdueGuy]

Create a different scene that doesn't have those devices as Responders.

You can select the devices you want in the tree from one scene, drag them to the new scene to add them.

[technoroom]

Thanks, however on ISY it is apparently not possible to have a device in a scene that's NOT a responder -- and that is the crux of the problem. The way things are set up, every device must be at least a responder; the only option is to have it also be a controller or not. I want to have devices in a scene that are not responders.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi technoroom,

 

What's the purpose of devices in a scene that are neither responders nor controllers?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[technoroom]

They are indeed controllers (according to the Insteon definition of controller), but are only controllers. Unfortunately the ISY definition of "controller" appears to be different from the Insteon spec definition. ISY's definition of "controller" appears to be a device that's both a controller (Insteon definition) AND responder (Insteon definition), which is not what I want. I want a device in a scene that's ONLY a controller (again, according to Insteon's definition of controller, not ISY's definition.)

 

I don't want something that's both a controller (Insteon definition) AND responder (Insteon definition), which is how ISY appears to define "controller" -- I want something that's ONLY an (Insteon-definition) controller.

 

According to Insteon specifications, there are THREE ways a device may participate in a scene:

1. As a controller only
2. As a responder only
3. As BOTH a controller and responder

Whereas, the ISY unit appears to support only two of these three ways:

1. As BOTH a controller and responder (the ISY unit calls this way a "controller")
2. As a responder only

[LeeG]

technoroom

 

Can you detail what you want to accomplish, how buttons should react, etc.   I understand your point about the ISY assuming a Controller is also a Responder as I've been using ISYs for years.   I don't think there is a result that cannot be achieved with the ISY design.  It does mean thinking how to do something with the existing ISY design.   

[Michel Kohanim]

technoroom,

 

If you don't mind, let's not get into a debate as to what is the correct methodology of controller/responder is. Suffice it to say that the outcome of what you are suggesting may create half links.

 

Anyway, so, please let me know:

Do you want the SAME button to be a controller for multiple scenes? If so, unfortunately, this cannot be done without creating half links. If not, then you can have multiple scenes whereby that button is indeed a controller for other buttons and then a responder in other scenes. If this does not work, please do not hesitate to contact our tech support team and we'd be delighted to walk through your use case and figure out the best solution.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[technoroom]

Sigh...this is how I was afraid the conversation was going to go. I may be new to ISY units but I've been using Insteon for many years. I know what half-links are; yes, I know we don't want those. But that is not what I am referring to here.

 

Here's what I want to accomplish.

 

I want to have three devices in a scene: A button from each of two 8-button wall units, and one IOLinc relay. When I press either of the two buttons on the wall unit, I want the relay on the IOLinc to activate, but I do not want the button on the other wall unit to light up.

 

I can easily accomplish this with Smarthome's HouseLinc software -- and no half-links are created. Yet it does not appear to be possible using ISY's definition of controller vs. responder within a scene.

 

If I were using HouseLinc, I would define the scene this way:

 

One button as a controller (Insteon's definition of controller)

The other button as a controller (Insteon's definition of controller)

The IOLinc relay as a responder.

 

If I try and do this with the ISY, the two buttons' lights will be synchronized with each other, because ISY appears to always make every device within the scene a responder. I don't want the two buttons (light within the button) to respond to each other.

[Michel Kohanim]

Thank you!

 

Please create two different scenes and put the IOLinc relay as responder to each. Put each of the buttons as controller in each one of the scenes. i.e.

Scene 1:

- KPL-1 button A : Controller

- IOLinc: Responder

 

Scene 2:

- KPL-2 button A : Controller

- IOLinc: Responder

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[technoroom]

Yep, I can do it that way in this particular case, where I have two buttons controlling a garage door. If I had four buttons, I would appear to need to define and manage four scenes. Eight buttons, eight different scenes, etc.

 

I guess I am very surprised that this use case would require that much work when using an ISY device, when it requires only a single scene in Smarthome's HouseLinc software -- which is a free download.

 

Thanks for your time.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi technoroom,

 

My pleasure. Please do not hesitate to contact our tech support in case we can be of further assistance.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[technoroom]

Well, you've given me a serious reason to return my ISY unit that I purchased! Thanks for your assistance in that.

[Michel Kohanim]

technoroom,

 

My pleasure regardless. I wish you the best of luck with your next endeavors whatever they may be.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RenoCasinoChips]

I am new to ISY (long time user of HouseLinc) and I am having the same problem as technoroom.  My use case is different, and I do not see how it can be solved using multiple scenes.  My garage has a ceiling light, a door into the house, and a door into the side yard.  There is a security light by the side door.  It has a motion detector and I generally leave the switch on all the time.  I have buttons on two 8-key pads to control the garage light.  So that's straight-forward - I have a scene for the garage with three controller/responders.

 

Now, if I enter the garage through the side door and the garage light is off, it's a long dark walk to the switch by the door into the house.  With HouseLinc, I set up the side light switch as controller-only for the garage "scene."  That way I can turn on the garage light with this switch, but turning off the garage light with any of the other three controllers does not turn off the security light.  The only down side with this is that I cannot use this switch to turn off the garage light if I exit through the side door, but in practice this is not a problem.

 

So I can understand defaulting "controller" to also be "responder" since that works in the vast majority of situations.  However, it seems to be arbitrarily limiting to not have the option for controller-only.  Can the developers please consider adding this as a feature?  This could either be a third option for the Controller/Responder button to cycle through (Responder / Controller / Controller Only), or a check box for Controller Only when Controller is selected.  I would appreciate this very much.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi RenoCasinoChips,

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

The main problem with that is that you will have half links simply because a device can only be a controller in one scene.

 

This said, you can definitely use a program for that specific switch at the side so that when it's clicked (Control is Switched On) then turn on the garage light. If you need more help with programming, please do not hesitate to submit a ticket (links below) and we'd be delighted to help you.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[RenoCasinoChips]

That works!  I wonder why you didn't recommend that to technoroom.  Of course, I still don't understand why a control/respond device set to respond only is not a half link, but when set to control only it is a half link.  But so long as the road leads where I want to go, I'll keep driving.  

[technoroom]

The main problem with that is that you will have half links simply because a device can only be a controller in one scene.

I still don't understand why a control/respond device set to respond only is not a half link, but when set to control only it is a half link.

 

RenoCasinoChips, I've never understood this either. Michel, would you be able to elaborate a bit more? How can defining an Insteon device as only a controller but not a responder, result in half-links? Is it something specific to scenes as opposed to just linking between two devices?

[oberkc]

I am new to ISY (long time user of HouseLinc) and I am having the same problem as technoroom.  My use case is different, and I do not see how it can be solved using multiple scenes.  My garage has a ceiling light, a door into the house, and a door into the side yard.  There is a security light by the side door.  It has a motion detector and I generally leave the switch on all the time.  I have buttons on two 8-key pads to control the garage light.  So that's straight-forward - I have a scene for the garage with three controller/responders.

 

Now, if I enter the garage through the side door and the garage light is off, it's a long dark walk to the switch by the door into the house.  With HouseLinc, I set up the side light switch as controller-only for the garage "scene."  That way I can turn on the garage light with this switch, but turning off the garage light with any of the other three controllers does not turn off the security light.  The only down side with this is that I cannot use this switch to turn off the garage light if I exit through the side door, but in practice this is not a problem.

 

So I can understand defaulting "controller" to also be "responder" since that works in the vast majority of situations.  However, it seems to be arbitrarily limiting to not have the option for controller-only.  Can the developers please consider adding this as a feature?  This could either be a third option for the Controller/Responder button to cycle through (Responder / Controller / Controller Only), or a check box for Controller Only when Controller is selected.  I would appreciate this very much.

 I understand the response from Michel Kohanin, in that any given insteon device can be controller only of one scene.  I am not sure that I understand the half-link issue in this case, but in general, I understand half links to be when responder has link records to a controller, but controller is does not have similar records to the responder (or vice versa).

 

In your case, however, it sounds as if the security light switch by the side door is not currently a controller of anything, correct?  If so, why not simply create another scene, including the switch by the side door as controller and the overhead light switch and two keypad buttons, all as responders?

 

What am I missing here?

[CoolToys]

I agree, it appears that a better solution would be to use all of the insteon protocol for the scenes.  Some devices should be able to trigger scenes or events, hence a controller only.  i.e. open front door and house is off, snack scene triggers but then isn't turned back off when door closes.  This little difference adds a huge amount of programming and troubleshooting time.