Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 I dabble with this. I'm not (nor do I seek to be) an electrical engineer. I've installed a 2473. At first, it showed up in "UD" software. I even incorporated it into a program and also a scene. It WAS all functional. Now, for whatever reason, I see a RED exclamation point in the "UD" software., but also, it will sometimes show back up and be functional. In short, communication with the outlet device is erratic and unreliable. The device is in my attic space and physically attending to it is extremely difficult - I WAS hoping to do this ONCE - ie install it and forget it. I don't really have a clue. Is the device defective ? Is there some sort of phase coupler that I need ? Is it line noise that needs a filter ? I don't know. Thanks in advance -g
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Some things to consider and verify in your environment. Have you confirmed you have coupled the two sides of the electrical feed with another dual band device by performing the 4 tap test outlined in the users manual? Once proper coupling has been confirmed you can move forward. Next, what is the load this outlet is controlling? What ISY firmware are you running at this point in time listed in the Help menu?
Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Author Posted October 30, 2014 Teken, Thanks for the reply. I will have to explore the "4 tap test" - I don't know if my system is properly coupled or not. The OUTLET controls a bathroom exhaust fan. (FYI- When I have comm with the 2473, it powers up the fan with no probs. My "scene" turns it on for 30mins then off. I use a 2486D Keylinc 6way to initiate the timer). My ISY firmware is:v4.0.5 thanks again, -g
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Teken, Thanks for the reply. I will have to explore the "4 tap test" - I don't know if my system is properly coupled or not. The OUTLET controls a bathroom exhaust fan. (FYI- When I have comm with the 2473, it powers up the fan with no probs. My "scene" turns it on for 30mins then off. I use a 2486D Keylinc 6way to initiate the timer). My ISY firmware is:v4.0.5 thanks again, -g Once you confirm proper coupling / bridging I would upgrade the ISY to the latest beta firmware. This would at least bring you to the most current revision most people are using. Things to consider is that if the attic space is extremely hot which most are. The device may be working beyond its operating limit which it was designed for. Is the outlet physically inside the unconditioned space? If you have a method to measure the attic temperature this would provide you some more insight. For your reference I have 48 1 wire temperature sensors through out my home which monitors various locations / devices. My attic temperature during the blazing summer heat has reached more than 53'C / 127'F http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929&start=50
Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Author Posted October 30, 2014 Teken, Temps in the attic space (right now, anyway) are in a normal range (I'm in South Eastern Pennsylvania not far from Balto MD). I did not know the Beta firmware was the way to go - To me "Beta" implies potential unknowns which I just figured I didn't need to add to my situation. I will give the "beta" a shot. I hope it's just a phase thing
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Teken, Temps in the attic space (right now, anyway) are in a normal range (I'm in South Eastern Pennsylvania not far from Balto MD). I did not know the Beta firmware was the way to go - To me "Beta" implies potential unknowns which I just figured I didn't need to add to my situation. I will give the "beta" a shot. I hope it's just a phase thing Beta *A Typically* does indeed imply a few unknowns. But, rest assured the latest release has very little if at all bugs at the moment. Please do reply back once you're able to complete the coupling / bridging test. As an aside, how many dual band Insteon devices do you have installed now?
Xathros Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 The fact that it WAS functional for some time says to me that something has changed. More than likely there is something either injecting noise onto your powerline or attenuating the insteon signal and interfering with comms to the OL. Look for things like surge protectors, UPSs, electronics like computers, chargers, AV Systems that may have been moved or added. Such things can be placed behind a Filterlinc to isolate them from the powerline and improve communications. For testing purposes, simply unplugging such things should show a difference if they are affecting your comms. -Xathros
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 The fact that it WAS functional for some time says to me that something has changed. More than likely there is something either injecting noise onto your powerline or attenuating the insteon signal and interfering with comms to the OL. Look for things like surge protectors, UPSs, electronics like computers, chargers, AV Systems that may have been moved or added. Such things can be placed behind a Filterlinc to isolate them from the powerline and improve communications. For testing purposes, simply unplugging such things should show a difference if they are affecting your comms. -Xathros If noise makers / signal suckers are not found after following Xathros suggestions. And coupling has been verified your next step is to hard reset the outlet linc device. This will at least bring the device back to a factory state in case it was some how hung up in the ether!
LeeG Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Release 4.2.17 is the latest ISY firmware today, by the end of the weekend (if on schedule) 4.2.18 will be available which has some minor functional updates. Either 4.2.17 or 4.2.18 are much better choice than 4.0.5.
paulbates Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Outletlincs can be temperamental about noise as Xathros points out. I had those exact symptoms on a yard light transformer plugged into an outletlinc. It usually took several hours of it being in the "on" state, and then it would stop responding and give the red !. I had to use a plug in noise filter to stop it from getting the red !. How old is the fan? Is it physically making more noise in the room than it used to? Paul Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Author Posted October 30, 2014 I'm very grateful to be getting all this help. I have updated my firmware to 4.2.18(RC8). I have also moved my 994i and PowerLinc Modem to an outlet on the same circuit breaker as my 2473. What I have found is this: If I cut the circuit breaker off, then turn it back on, the OutletLinc 2473 shows up in the UD software and is functional for an "ON". If I then go and send an "OFF", the FAN/2473 turns off and then I get "Failed to communicate" message box popup and I lose my 2473 comm. If I cut the breaker off, then back on, I have reset whatever(???) and the 2473 works for an "on" and comm dies with the first "off" sent. It didn't do that initially (the first day or so after I installed it. I don't know what has changed - again I'm wondering if the 2473 is defective. To clarify, this is a new installation (previously I had an X10 RF module that worked fine). I thought I was "upgrading" with this Insteon stuff, now I'm not so sure. Moving to an outlet on the same circuit breaker should (at least temporarily) elimiate a phase couple issue for this particular 2473, correct ? Now to start with the noise crap is like Elmer Fudd taking a shot gun to his house trying to kill the pesky wabbit - I don't feel like destroying my house/wallet to get this working. I know the 2473 is getting power because I still have my X10 RF module plugged into the uncontolled portion of the outletlinc and the x10 RF is functional. Any ideas ??? Thanks again.
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Without first performing the 4 tab bridging test there is no sure way to confirm proper coupling. Please find some time to complete this task for the device (versions) you have at home. There are some X10 devices which do not play well with Insteon and can cause unreliable behavior. As a quick test and trouble shooting just remove any X10 power line device from the network. Next, when a device turns on fine but has a problem turning off its normally the load that is giving Insteon device a problem. Its either being overwhelmed by spurious noise or the actual signal is being sucked in. I know this will not be easy but a simple test to see if its the (fan) load causing the issue is to unplug it. At that point in time turn the OL on and off via the ISY Admin Console. If it works you know its the load and can filter it or replace it. If the red exclamation mark comes back while the load is unplugged and (after) you have confirmed proper coupling. The OL could simply require a hard factory reset, if not and its damaged send it back under warranty. NOTE: I know this may sound odd but bare with me. Insteon has under development a brand new dual band relay outlet linc which can control both top and bottom outlets. The spec's are far superior in terms of surge protection, power consumption, and load support. I would probably wait for this new device to be released and then make a warranty return and get the latest unit. Edited October 30, 2014 by Teken
Xathros Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) This sounds like the OL is being spiked by the fan motor when the OL turns off. This is a fairly common problem with inductive loads. Sounds like you may need a snubber across the load to soften the spike. As Teken suggested above, unplugging the fan from the OL and testing should prove this theory. -Xathros Edited October 30, 2014 by Xathros
Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Author Posted October 30, 2014 Well, I think I've had it for today. Another day, I will try and crawl up into the attic, through all the carefully redistributed loose fill that was displaced when I installed this "OUTLETLINC" marvel last week and disconnect the fan to test out the FAN theory. At this time, I have only the OUTLETLINC, the 6way switch, the houselinc modem that came with my 994i, and a ControlLinc 4071. Can I still do this "4tab test" ? The thing I don't understand is if I have the OL and the Modem on the same circuit what does the phase coupling have to do with it - if I have a phase couple issue in the house I can address that separately and later on. Right now, I just want to press a button an have my exhaust fan come on for 30 mins I just want the #@$% outlet to %$^# work - jeesh !
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Well, I think I've had it for today. Another day, I will try and crawl up into the attic, through all the carefully redistributed loose fill that was displaced when I installed this "OUTLETLINC" marvel last week and disconnect the fan to test out the FAN theory. At this time, I have only the OUTLETLINC, the 6way switch, the houselinc modem that came with my 994i, and a ControlLinc 4071. Can I still do this "4tab test" ? The thing I don't understand is if I have the OL and the Modem on the same circuit what does the phase coupling have to do with it - if I have a phase couple issue in the house I can address that separately and later on. Right now, I just want to press a button an have my exhaust fan come on for 30 mins I just want the #@$% outlet to %$^# work - jeesh ! Hello Gee, I am going to assume you meant you have a 2413S dual band PLM and not a 2413U. Based on what you describe you only have one dual band device in the home which (I assume) is the dual band 2413S. Unless you can state the KPL (6 Button) unit is also a dual band unit which all of them now are if you purchased them this year. Proper coupling is imperative regardless if (Insteon) devices are on the same leg. I can appreciate how you feel about just having something work. Trust me, once you can determine if its the load a solution will be forth coming. Hang tight . . .
Gee Posted October 30, 2014 Author Posted October 30, 2014 KPL= 2486d v.41 is that "dual band" ? 2413S = YES "S" What's the least expensive way to phase couple this mess - er, ah "SmartHome" ? A 2406h ?
Teken Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) KPL= 2486d v.41 is that "dual band" ? 2413S = YES "S" What's the least expensive way to phase couple this mess - er, ah "SmartHome" ? A 2406h ? If you bought it in the last year it should be a dual band KPL. If you have the box you can confirm by the literature and of course you can confirm on the SH invoice. Follow the beacon test outlined for either the KPL / PLM and report back your results. Also, you would be better served by purchasing a On / Off relay or dimmer module as it will allow you to have dual use. I prefer the Access Points (AP) now called range extenders. But, they only serve one purpose and that is to couple / bridge the two sides of the electrical feed and does so actively. Where as the other unit you indicate is a passive unit and does not strengthen the signal and rebroadcast the insteon signal. It simply passes the signal over to the next side of the electrical feed as it was. Edited October 30, 2014 by Teken
Michel Kohanim Posted October 31, 2014 Posted October 31, 2014 Hi Gee, If you are still having problems, please do not hesitate to contact our tech support team (links below). With kind regards, Michel
Gee Posted November 3, 2014 Author Posted November 3, 2014 Going with one of these: Leviton IPHS5-1LW Humidity Sensor and Fan Control If I have to go up into the attic again, if I have to spend $$$$ on devices to make the device I bought work like it should, if I have to wait for a newer version Insteon device that will be out any day now (after I've unknowingly bought the old one), then I think I'll just run some romex and get it done. Thanks again
Teken Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Going with one of these: Leviton IPHS5-1LW Humidity Sensor and Fan Control If I have to go up into the attic again, if I have to spend $$$$ on devices to make the device I bought work like it should, if I have to wait for a newer version Insteon device that will be out any day now (after I've unknowingly bought the old one), then I think I'll just run some romex and get it done. Thanks again Again, you really need to know what the ambient temperature is in the attic for all seasons. Very few electronics are designed or made for out door use and in extreme temperature zones. All of the devices you have selected are intended for indoor use and rated as such. Even though Leviton is a high quality manufacture they do not rate this device for outdoor use or for extreme temperature environments. You're going to be doing this up and down shuffle next week, month, or next year. This is why for my own environment I went for a purpose built 1 wire sensor that could sustain extreme heat and cold all the while controlling the fans in my attic space. The switch is not in the attic space at all just the wires and the fan motor and the this provides long term use and reliability. Edited November 3, 2014 by Teken
Gee Posted November 3, 2014 Author Posted November 3, 2014 Teken, I grasp the issue of extreme ambient temps adversely effecting electronic equipment, and do not fault Smarthome or Insteon for that reality. Right now, however, the temps in my attic are within a normal range. The comm problem is what I'm feed up with. If the 2473 unit worked as it should, dealing with ambient temps would be something I'd be willing to address. For example, I saw this INSTEON 2634-222 On/Off Outdoor Module (Dual-Band) . This 2634 "should" obviate the concern about ambient temps, no ? (AND IT'S "DUAL BAND" unlike the old version of the 2473 I was unwitting sold). I'd consider spending the extra bucks (over the Levitron) for this outdoor module IF my 2473 in normal temps even implied that I'd have a functional set up. But what I have is comm issues that are nothing but a black hole. Is it line noise from the fan itself ? Is it a phase coupling issue ? Is it some other device in my house that needs filtering ? Is it several devices (I have a bunch of UPS's for audio and computer equipment) ? The Levitron will be installed within the bathroom (I will bite the bullet and run some romex from the fixture power source in the attic), but the Levitron itself will be in the living space. I'll get both a timer functionality and a humidity sensor functionality AND IT WILL BE RELIABLE AND FUNCTIONAL out of the box (most likely). I don't mean to seem argumentative and I do appreciate all the input, but I'm pretty PO'd over all the insteon money I've already spent for nothing much more then the same sort of X10 aggravation I was trying to eliminate.
Teken Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Teken, I grasp the issue of extreme ambient temps adversely effecting electronic equipment, and do not fault Smarthome or Insteon for that reality. Right now, however, the temps in my attic are within a normal range. The comm problem is what I'm feed up with. If the 2473 unit worked as it should, dealing with ambient temps would be something I'd be willing to address. For example, I saw this INSTEON 2634-222 On/Off Outdoor Module (Dual-Band) . This 2644 "should" obviate the concern about ambient temps, no ? (AND IT'S "DUAL BAND" unlike the old version of the 2473 I was unwitting sold). I'd consider spending the extra bucks (over the Levitron) for this outdoor module IF my 2473 in normal temps even implied that I'd have a functional set up. But what I have is comm issues that are nothing but a black hole. Is it line noise from the fan itself ? Is it a phase coupling issue ? Is it some other device in my house that needs filtering ? Is it several devices (I have a bunch of UPS's for audio and computer equipment) ? The Levitron will be installed within the bathroom (I will bite the bullet and run some romex from the fixture power source in the attic), but the Levitron itself will be in the living space. I'll get both a timer functionality and a humidity sensor functionality AND IT WILL BE RELIABLE AND FUNCTIONAL out of the box (most likely). I don't mean to seem argumentative and I do appreciate all the input, but I'm pretty PO'd over all the insteon money I've already spent for nothing much more then the same sort of X10 aggravation I was trying to eliminate. When you have time you're going to have to unplug the fan to see if the noise is from the fan. Besides that you still need to confirm proper coupling / bridging. If you have many (unfiltered) UPS in the home its a sure thing this is another aspect impacting your insteon reliability. Will it cost more money to filter those UPS units? Yes . . . Will it be worth while in the long term? Yes . . . You have three tasks at hand at the moment so just do the easy one's first. Beacon test (coupling) and unplugging the fan and seeing the results. Before even doing all of the above it would be simpler to unplug all the UPS units, chargers, electronics, and see if the COM's are restored.
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