Elk Motion Sensor Advantages?

[simonsez]

Hi,

 

I really would like to switch out my old antiquated DSC alarm for an Elk.  While not the primary reason, I really want better motion sensors than the standard Insteon 2842-222.    So I'm wondering if I can expect better performance/functionality using the sensors off the Elk instead.  My plan is to use wireless motion sensors (Elk brand or otherwise) to replace my Insteon ones.  

 

Firstly I'm assuming based on what I've read so far that I can have an Isy program that is triggered by a motion sensor on the Elk going into the "violated" state.  If this is possible then specifically I'd like to know:

  

1. Will security motion sensors (Elk or otherwise) have a better false alarm detection?
2. Would these sensors make good room occupancy sensors even if the occupants are motionless/near motionless?  I've found the Insteon ones are not good at this.  For example using them as a washroom/bathroom sensor will often leave one in the dark when seated on the toilet.  
3. Will I get better response time?  The only way I've found to really make the Insteon sensors smart is to never have them directly in any scene and instead create the logic with programs on the Isy to overcome some of their limitations.  This works great; however it means in a simple application like an occupancy sensor for a light there is a perceptible delay between sensing the motion and getting the light turned on when compared to the having the motion sensor directly in a scene as a controller.
4. The lowest timeout on the Insteon ones are 30 seconds.  Do security type sensors also have a timeout like this?  If so what is the lowest value?
5. Is there any delay between the sensor changing it's status on the Elk and that status being communicated to the Isy?

Simon

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Simon,

 

I can only answer #5: it should be relatively instantaneous.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[whlatimer]

I can verify there is no delay in ISY responding to Elk zone violation.  Our house, built in 1998, has window, door and motion sensor wired to old alarm panel,  I replaced the alarm system with an Elk M1 5+ years ago.  When I made the switch to Insteon and bought the ISY994i, I purchased the Elk Integration module.    

 

Now, when an exterior door is left open for more than 30 seconds, a lamp turns on.  When a window is opened, a different lamp turns on.  When motion is detected in the family room between 10pm and 7am, a nightlight in the master bedroom illuminates.  

 

My experience is with wired sensors only.  Elk and ISY994 and an excellent combination.  

[simonsez]

Hi, 

 

Thanks for responses.  So one of my concerns certainly is answered; that there is little to no delay between the Isy and the Elk.  

 

I'm still hoping someone will chime in regarding the wireless sensors in case they behave differently then their wired counterparts.   In my situation I will need to augment the current system with them, as it only has four wired zones.  Therefore I plan on adding a lot of wireless contact closure sensors and motion sensors.  I am sure all work fine for a security application, after all that's what the Elk was designed for.  What I'm really wondering is if they will work equally as well when used for home automation. 

 

Thanks again!

 

Simon

[MWareman]

I have over 20 Elk 2-way wireless sensors - I use them to trigger ISY programs as well. No perceptible delay and the same experience as the wired zones.

[Big517]

I agree with the zero delay. Also never have I experienced a false sensor trip. I rely on roughly 60 sensors on my elk panel to automate the lights in every room of my home (roughly 100 zwave device). The ONLY delays I experience are when multiple programs are running and firing 10-20 zwave commands the acknowledge packets will delay the processing of programs or sending more zwave commands. I'm not sure if this is a limitation of Isy or zwave.

[Scyto]

I have no delay on my DSC 1864 alarm either (wireless, using EVL and 2 intermediate apps to get the data to the ISY),  so I would imagine the ELK should rock.

[shannong]

One thing to consider is network performance. Insteon is not a very good performing network protocol and is relatively unreliable. If your network is marginal in some areas you might experience delays associated with retransmits from the ISY to the device you're turning on or even occasionally it doesn't turn on because the command never made it there. I had this issue in one corner of my house most distant from the ISY/PLM.

 

When an Insteon motion sensor is in a scene with the light switch, the motion sensor locally sends the On/Off command to the light switch and therefore never missed or needed to be retransmitted. It's on very fast and reliably.

[simonsez]

Hi!

 

Thanks to everyone for the responses.  This has really  pushed me closer to pulling the trigger on an Elk system to replace the ancient DSC system in this house.  As I said the biggest draw back to me was the speed and the timeout of the Insteon motion sensors.  The timeout is really annoying as it causes a lot user confusion.  

 

For example a person walks into a bathroom and the lights come on, but they left the clean towels in the laundry basket.   So the person walks out and happens to instinctively  turn off the lights, they grab the clean towels and walk back into the bathroom. This takes say 10 seconds.  So they walk back in and have to wait 20 seconds to get the lights to fire again.  I understand this is probably due to limitations of the Insteon protocol as well as a simple safeguard to people setting the timeout to low and flooding their network.  However 30 seconds is just too high. Unless of course you have a  massive estate  and it takes you a couple of minutes to get from the bathroom to bedroom due to sheer size.  

 

It also sounds like the true security motion sensors are just better than their Smarthome counterparts.  I don't know why exactly they are better (eg. better pir sensor, better logic, better fresnel lens, better wireless network protocol ect.) but the response seem to back up what I have read elsewhere.  If anyone knows why they work better on a technical level I'd curious to know why.

 

Also I'm still wondering if the Elk sensors are better at detecting idle warm bodies, as the Smarthomes one certainly are not.

 

shannong:

I am aware of the speed advantages of putting the motion sensor in the same scene as the device being controlled.  The severe disadvantage is that you can't add any extra logic.  So I think really if you're using an Isy the chances you're using the former are slim in all but the more simple of use cases.  I'm basing my opinion off my own trials and tribulation with these devices and also the excellent document in the wiki below.  

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Using_Motion_Sensors_in_Bathrooms

 

Big517:

Your setup sounds pretty awesome. If I read it correctly, you can have a zero touch experience when moving around your home when it comes to lighting.  If you don't mind I'd love to hear more about how it works in real life. Is to the point where the lighting follows the occupants around?  Also if that's the case, I'm wondering if you have any problems with idle bodies causing the sensor to think motion has ceased and leaving yourself or others in the dark.

 

 

Thank again everyone.  I always appreciate the knowledgeable real world feedback from everyone on these forums.

 

Simon

[LeeG]

"So they walk back in and have to wait 20 seconds to get the lights to fire again. "

 

Probably will not make a difference to the choice of using ELK but the 30 second timeout of an Insteon Motion Sensor is under your control.   There is no need to use that timeout if it does not fit the environment in which the Insteon Motion Sensor is being used.  Use a combination of Sensing Mode: and On Only commands to avoid using Motion Sensor timeout.  Turning Off the load would be controlled by an ISY Program.  

[simonsez]

"So they walk back in and have to wait 20 seconds to get the lights to fire again. "

 

Probably will not make a difference to the choice of using ELK but the 30 second timeout of an Insteon Motion Sensor is under your control.   There is no need to use that timeout if it does not fit the environment in which the Insteon Motion Sensor is being used.  Use a combination of Sensing Mode: and On Only commands to avoid using Motion Sensor timeout.  Turning Off the load would be controlled by an ISY Program.  

 

Hey Lee, 

 

I didn't realize this was the case; that always on mode would avoid the sensor timeout.  I looked at both the  manual and the quick start guide  again I don't see this anywhere.  Perhaps it common knowledge, but certainly not to me.  Thanks for pointing it out.  I am going to adjust one of my sensors and see how this works.

 

Simon

[Jimbo.Automates]

 

 

I am aware of the speed advantages of putting the motion sensor in the same scene as the device being controlled. The severe disadvantage is that you can't add any extra logic. So I think really if you're using an Isy the chances you're using the former are slim in all but the more simple of use cases. I'm basing my opinion off my own trials and tribulation with these devices and also the excellent document in the wiki below.

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Using_Motion_Sensors_in_Bathrooms

 

 

You can put the MS in on only mode and Link it to the scene, then have programs control turning off the light. My only issue with this method is if the person adjusts the dim level of the switch then the MS will reset it back with the next on command. Hopefully this will be fixable with v5 firmware.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[LeeG]

simonsez

 

It is a combination of Sensing Mode: checked and On Only mode that has the Motion Sensor ignore the timeout.  With those two options the Motion Sensor sends an On command for every motion sensed (about a 2-3 second minimum between Motion On messages). 

[Big517]

Big517:

Your setup sounds pretty awesome. If I read it correctly, you can have a zero touch experience when moving around your home when it comes to lighting. If you don't mind I'd love to hear more about how it works in real life. Is to the point where the lighting follows the occupants around? Also if that's the case, I'm wondering if you have any problems with idle bodies causing the sensor to think motion has ceased and leaving yourself or others in the dark.

 

 

 

You are correct with zero touch. Yes they follow, but the art is programing to anticipate!. As an example If a 2nd level hall sensor is tripped for more than 3 seconds that means someone is walking somewhere... what room did they leave from? (guest room is not violated prior to the 3 second hall trip so they just left the room) it's 5am they are probably going to the bathroom (turn on chandler and led tub lights) what if the sensor in that bath never tripped? No activity in the other rooms? No sensor trip in other end of hallway? They are going downstairs! (Turn on stair landing lights). It's morning so they will probably go into the kitchen. If the foyer sensor is tripped (turn on kitchen led mood lighting). No motion detected in kitchen? They are leaving! (Since there is no alarm tripped if they unlock the front door (kwikset manual unlock) then disarm the system for them and, turn on outside lights, announce"thanks for visiting"). Ping sensor detects they have dropped off WiFi and driveway sensors confirm a vehicle left (based on 2 beam sensors ) turn off guest mode. Shut off outside lights, arm stay mode and lock doors if necessary.

 

My programs are built kind of like that. A lot of checking and waiting. Sometimes I think I'm pushing the ISY limits of processing but everything runs great.

 

Regarding someone staying in a room. if that room is not tripped meaning someone just sat down or left the room [elk not tripped is instant once movement stops btw] I'll tum IF programs to wait for a trip in an adjacent room. [if foyer motion is not tripped then wait 3 seconds. else [meaning it was tripped) then run living room occupied else. No trip after 3 seconds? Room still occupied

It gets trickier with multiple people. I tried using a counter but that was not perfect so I added grace periods to wait before sitting off lights just in case someone was still in the room.