Xathros Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Externally mounted dual band devices tend to have better range than those mounted in jboxes. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:04 PM, said: Ok. Did these dimmers respond to the beacon test started at the PLM? -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk No they did not, this is how the thread got started and how I went down this rabbit hole. When I initiate the 4-tap test from these dimmers, all the other insteon devices upstairs flash fine, they are distributed across about 4 or 5 other circuits on both sides of my panel.... when the test is initiated from the PLM some of the upstairs devices don't flash at all (the oddest being the 2 dimmers in the master bath where one flashes and one doesn't - they are on same circuit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Then try adding a plugin dual band item somewhere between devices that responded reliably to the beacon test and the problem location. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Also this came about because we see variable hop counts to the upstairs devices. Sometimes hop left =2 and sometime hops left = 0 to a variety of the devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:09 PM, said: Then try adding a plugin dual band item somewhere between devices that responded reliably to the beacon test and the problem location. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I have no such thing. Hence my question some number of posts ago on whether I should get a repeater and if so where I should put it. It sounds like getting a lamplinc is the way to go as it can perform the repeater action and be a useful thing too? --edit-- just ordered Insteon 2457D2 LampLinc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I agree. Sorry to make you repeat everything. Responding from my phone and didn't review the whole thread. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 IMO, only a quality ladder such as Werner will do. I spent a few decades in the construction industry. Safety is the prime consideration. Good ladders cost less than doctor bills. In this case, no pain is good! For indoor use, unless you have vaulted ceilings, use a 6-foot stepladder. A 10-foot stepladder and/or 16 foot extension ladder or longer is adequate for most outdoor work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:13 PM, said:Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:13 PM, said: I agree. Sorry to make you repeat everything. Responding from my phone and didn't review the whole thread. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Sorry, I didn't mean to be an a-hole, your advice is appreciated. I still think part of the issue is the KPDs don't play nice in an environment where retries happen - looking at all the other threads makes me think they are very funky items (all my normal dual band dimmers are perfect), and once programmed the KPDs seem to work flawlessly - but getting them programmed is a pain, I had to do multiple device resets before I got the scene fully programmed into the devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xathros Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I've had no problems to speak of with my KPLs. I haven't had to make changes recently however so maybe something has changed with the newer devices. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:22 PM, said:Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:22 PM, said:Xathros, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:22 PM, said: I've had no problems to speak of with my KPLs. I haven't had to make changes recently however so maybe something has changed with the newer devices. -Xathros Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think it only applies to 2334-232 when having a complex set of scenes - where each button is a controller in one scene and a responder in 4+ other scenes. Writing these invariably results in write errors. It seems during these write errors it is possible to cause the device to go 'funky' and further re-writing doesn't actually fix - only a factory reset and restore. Problem is I don't have a repro and my suspicion is it is related to the max-hops variability I am seeing. Actually since this thread began I actually have the two bedroom KPDs and the one basement one that gave me so much grief (these are the only 3 I own) all working fine at the moment. Just took a lot of factory resets to get there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Sure, I understand that, my point is that motor noise would only be generated at time of use. As for wether it has some sort of transformer that could be causing an issue I don't know. I am hoping someone has some experience with velux and can weigh in. I am looking to understand if I need to go out, buy a ladder and start crawling around the attic The motor doesn't need to be running for the IR circuitry to generate noise. If you have only incandescent lighting on that circuit (which we haven't established), then disconnecting the IR receivers is the only way to rule them out as a culprit. Do you have other than incandescent lighting? If so, try removing those lights first. One more thing. Are you relying entirely on the labels in the load center (circuit breaker panel)? Don't depend on them being completely accurate as some change may have occurred (or is it a new home?). BTW, are the window motors labelled on that circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 stusviews, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:34 PM, said:stusviews, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:34 PM, said: The motor doesn't need to be running for the IR circuitry to generate noise. If you have only incandescent lighting on that circuit (which we haven't established), then disconnecting the IR receivers is the only way to rule them out as a culprit. Do you have other than incandescent lighting? If so, try removing those lights first. One more thing. Are you relying entirely on the labels in the load center (circuit breaker panel)? Don't depend on them being completely accurate as some change may have occurred (or is it a new home?). BTW, are the window motors labelled on that circuit? Yes only incandescent. No I am not relying on labels. I did a full panel audit when I installed the brultech energy meter by literally turning off each circuit and walking the house. Before I posted I turned the circuit off to double check what would no longer power on and double check my original audit. If you are at all interested here is the info http://1drv.ms/1zyytsC the PLM is on 31 (note the vacuum is actually unplugged, we don't use it) the KPdimmers in question are on 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think it only applies to 2334-232 when having a complex set of scenes - where each button is a controller in one scene and a responder in 4+ other scenes. Writing these invariably results in write errors. It seems during these write errors it is possible to cause the device to go 'funky' and further re-writing doesn't actually fix - only a factory reset and restore. Problem is I don't have a repro and my suspicion is it is related to the max-hops variability I am seeing. Actually since this thread began I actually have the two bedroom KPDs and the one basement one that gave me so much grief (these are the only 3 I own) all working fine at the moment. Just took a lot of factory resets to get there.... Having nearly two dozen 2334-232 KPLs with most buttons being controllers of and responders to many more that four other devices and no difficulty creating and/or modifying scenes, I don't believe the device is at fault. It does appear the you have a communication problem at that location (or a faulty KPL). What is the load wire connected to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 stusviews, on 16 Feb 2015 - 2:54 PM, said:Having nearly two dozen 2334-232 KPLs with most buttons being controllers of and responders to many more that four other devices and no difficulty creating and/or modifying scenes, I don't believe the device is at fault. It does appear the you have a communication problem at that location (or a faulty KPL). What is the load wire connected to? Do you mean what is the load? The load wire of the two bedroom KPLs is connected to the load wire in the plastic light switch box. This goes wherever it goes to control the lights in the bedroom. Not sure what other detail you are looking for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 I should also add that currently the velux windows and bedroom light circuit is off. Yet I still variable max-hop counts to the switches in the same area of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Do you mean what is the load? The "load" can be, for example, incandescent, fluorescent, CFL, or LED. But, I'm confused about the circuits involved. You mentioned that the Velux windows are on that circuit and that the circuit of concern is 24. But, the Velux windows are on circuit 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 stusviews, on 16 Feb 2015 - 3:37 PM, said: The "load" can be, for example, incandescent, fluorescent, CFL, or LED. But, I'm confused about the circuits involved. You mentioned that the Velux windows are on that circuit and that the circuit of concern is 24. But, the Velux windows are on circuit 26. Typo on my part 26 not 24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 So I bit the bullet and did an experiment. I turned off all circuits except 26, 27, 29 and 31 and unplugged a pump from circuit 31 which I think the PLM is on - only just realized this I waited for the insteon to finish the insteon and zwave checking. (I accidentally turned off the ISY (31) during this process) I performed an on and off to the KPDs in question and they consistently had 2 hops left - I did this maybe 10 times and it was consistent However then the ISY did a LTSREQ again, the console gave me a connection error and the ISY dropped off the network - I needed to hard reboot it to fix (only one blue light was on the front). Error on console is Socket Open Failed java.net.SocketTimeoutException Now it re-enumerating all the devices again, hopefully it doesn't crash again.... I assume at this juncture it is just a matter of turning on each circuit until the hop count gets unreliable? --edit-- yup just crashed again... sigh this is gonna making testing as I turn on circuits very laborious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Scyto, Ok, this is very serious. Can you please let me know the exact steps to reproduce the hang? Do you have any programs that do things based on the conditions of those devices? Do you know what was the status of the LEDs on the front of the unit? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Michael Exact steps, I think: 1) have query at restart = checked 2) catch up schedules at restart = checked 3) have 35+ insteon devices in the ISY all fine and ~8 zwave devices all fine 4) remove power about 33 insteon devices 5) reboot the ISY 6) on reboot connect to ISY and logon - in the event viewer see it trying to query everything 7a) try and look at the insteon devices sill powered and now turn them on or off 7b) just wait eventually it may generate the error on its own whats interesting is that the log still updates, but trying the REST interface times out (no logon prompt) and eventually one has to kill the java UI or sometimes it kilss itself I got past this by disabling the query all program, the schedule updates and the query on reboot (I noticed the query all program was green in the UI) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 PS the troubleshooting technique didn't work, the missing hops is so non-deterministic I can't reliably identify which circuit in the house has the offending device(s). However the 0 hops left message maybe a duplicate, in the example below it appears two offs were sent as the last item, when in reality only one off was sent (I only clicked off once) so I a unclear why it was sent again and then why it says 'previous message ignored'? Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:26 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 29 4B 8E 0F 11 FFMon 02/16/2015 17:51:26 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4B.8E 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:26 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4B.8E 2A.1C.FF 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:26 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4B.8E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 29 4B 8E 0F 13 00Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 29.4B.8E 0F 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4B.8E 2A.1C.FF 2B 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4B.8E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [D2D EVENT ] Event [29 4B 8E 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [ 29 4B 8E 1] ST 0Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 29.4B.8E 2A.1C.FF 23 13 00 LTOFFRR(00)Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [std-Direct Ack] 29.4B.8E-->ISY/PLM Group=0, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0Mon 02/16/2015 17:51:29 : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The device sent one Off message ACK. The 0 Hops Left message is the result of the Off ACK message taking different paths back to the PLM. It is ignored as the event trace indicates because there is no outbound message waiting for a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scyto Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 LeeG, on 16 Feb 2015 - 6:29 PM, said:The device sent one Off message ACK. The 0 Hops Left message is the result of the Off ACK message taking different paths back to the PLM. It is ignored as the event trace indicates because there is no outbound message waiting for a response. Ahh so the folks who looked at previous traces and told me I had an issue sent me on a wild good chase - awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 A Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0 often means a comm issue. Particularly when a series of commands occur and Hops Left=x varies from command to command. In this case the Hops Left=0 is a duplicate ACK, not the true ACK which has a Hops Left=2. Comm traffic has to be evaluated in detail to be sure what it actually means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hi Scyto, Thank you. What you are describing is normal: ISY puts a lock for communications and if multiple clients/threads are trying to do something while ISY is holding the lock for communications, then they will eventually timeout. Where was the hang? Or did it ever hang? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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