Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Hello to everyone here. I'm a newbie that's been lurking and reading much concerning HA for over a year now. I've made the decision and have purchased a vera3, an iSy-994iZw with climate, Brultech, and network modules, several z-wave switches from Leviton, GE, and Cooper to see which works the best. I've also purchased the Netgear Nighthawk triple band router. I do intend to use a fair amount of Insteon for plug in items, but I wish to rely mainly (+\- 80%) on Z-wave. I have not yet purchased any other devices or equipment, and I do not plan to until I have the system powered up, integrated together and have demonstrated one area at a time. Then I will widen my scope. For now, I have some questions that I'm not really looking for answers to as much as I need advice from much more experienced players. For example: should I immediately get MobilincHD and integrate it from the very beginning or hold off? Same with the IR or the PRO upgrades, do I need to go ahead and buy the upgrades or wait for the need? As I stated, I already bought the climate module, as that's one of the first things I'd like to have in the morning is a vocal wake up and the weather via a voice. I wish to extend the use of voice in my system, but I'm thinking more towards the end but is that right? Or should that be worked in from the start? So I'd like to ask for any tips or milestones I should acheive before moving further along my chosen path. Many many thanks to all who would answer here. I have read these forums for quite sometime and I know many of your handles and your vast experience from trial and error is excellent reading material for one who pursues this desire. GT
larryllix Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 I have chosen none of the equipment you did, and am mostly glad I chose what I did after reading other people's experiences, but for what it is worth get some experience and buy parts and pieces slowly as you gain more experience. There is a lot to learn. The only thing you have to lose, this way, is shipping costs. Watch for free shipping deals and order a lump. I don't believe you can plan your system intelligently until you have the experience. That like not buying flavours of soup, you don't like, before ever tasting it. I do have MobiLinc Pro and it definitely makes the system more valuable and workable. Worth it.
oberkc Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 should I immediately get MobilincHD and integrate it from the very beginning or hold off? Same with the IR or the PRO upgrades, do I need to go ahead and buy the upgrades or wait for the need? Hold off, I say. These can be upgraded later without having to redo anything. Furthermore, depending on what route you decide, (ISY versus vera), mobilinc may not even be applicable to you. When, or if, you ever decide you need to add the IR capability, do so based on needs and best approaches given where you are at the time.
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 I have chosen none of the equipment you did, and am mostly glad I chose what I did after reading other people's experiences, but for what it is worth get some experience and buy parts and pieces slowly as you gain more experience. There is a lot to learn. The only thing you have to lose, this way, is shipping costs. Watch for free shipping deals and order a lump. I don't believe you can plan your system intelligently until you have the experience. That like not buying flavours of soup, you don't like, before ever tasting it. I do have MobiLinc Pro and it definitely makes the system more valuable and workable. Worth it. "I have chosen none of the equipment you did, and am mostly glad I chose what I did after reading other people's experiences, but for what it is worth get some experience and buy parts and pieces slowly as you gain more experience. There is a lot to learn." Hello and thanks for the reply larryllix. Could you give a bit more detail about your choices as opposed to what I purchased please? If there is a good combination that you have found to work well, please share what the parts and pieces are! "Hold off, I say. These can be upgraded later without having to redo anything. Furthermore, depending on what route you decide, (ISY versus vera), mobilinc may not even be applicable to you. When, or if, you ever decide you need to add the IR capability, do so based on needs and best approaches given where you are at the time." That's pretty much what I thought oberkc. If I end up expanding and needing more room I can upgrade to pro, and if I want IR down the road, I can get that later as well. So right now my plan is to start with getting the router and the iSy-994iZw set up with one z-wave switch. Once I've practiced a little with scene creation and tested a couple more devices, I can see if that will fit my needs or if not I can look at adding the Vera 3 as a slave controller (or vice versa) or maybe even abandoning the ISy-994iZw altogether and going 100% Vera3. I don't really have an interest in Homeseer or Smart Things, or the other controllers due to the bad reviews. I'm also wanting something that will offer local control without the Internet or cloud connection. What do you think?
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 What are your plans for the Brultech and what model did you buy? What are your plans for integration with the ISY-994 IZW? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Hi Teken. I have read many, many of your posts and I lean towards the way you look at things. I looking at purchasing the Brultech ECM-1240 Energy Monitor with Raspberry Pi B+ Data host and 8G sd card and my plan is to have the data logged and saved on my NAS for historical analysis. The integration should, I believe, be fairly straight forward since I have the Brultech module installed. Why do you ask? Is this a bad idea?
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Hi Teken. I have read many, many of your posts and I lean towards the way you look at things. I looking at purchasing the Brultech ECM-1240 Energy Monitor with Raspberry Pi B+ Data host and 8G sd card and my plan is to have the data logged and saved on my NAS for historical analysis. The integration should, I believe, be fairly straight forward since I have the Brultech module installed. Why do you ask? Is this a bad idea? To be clear, you currently have the hardware for the Z-Wave right? You do not have the hardware for the Zigbee?
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Correct. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Correct. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk How do you plan to see, input, and extract the energy data from the ISY? Specifically, what method are you going to use to connect the ECM-1240 to the ISY Series Controller?
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 I was under the impression that since I purchased the iSy-994iZwave unit WITH the Brultech energy monitor module already installed IN the ISY-994iZwave unit, that seeing the data would be accomplished with the Brultech software that comes with the ECM-1240. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 The ISY Series Controller currently supports only one or the other, not both. Meaning you can only have Z-Wave or Zigbee hardware with in the controller. There are other methods to input the energy data but requires more investment in equipment. I also want to ensure you're purchasing the correct energy monitor so you spend your money once. The ECM-1240 is a solid box but is limited to 7 electrical channels. The GEM (Green Eye Monitor) supports 32 discreet electrical channels, 8 1-Wire temperature, 4 pulse. The ECM-1240 is also no longer being developed by Brultech and is an excellent entry unit for those with modest needs etc. But, you and I both know this is for the long term so perhaps consider thinking about this a little longer. I would rather you purchase all of the correct hardware the first go round then have regrets later.
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Yes, Teken, I understand now what you are saying. I will forgo the Brultech energy monitor and look elsewhere as my system is NOT Zigbee. I am going with Zwave. I kind of envision a mid-range setup, not heavy in the detailed control of everything, but a nice control of my lighting and equipment for an at home, leaving the house, and returning home scenes. I also intend to install some type of energy monitor and (hopefully) take advantage of lower cost power during certain times. My energy provider is implementing that in 2015. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Yes, Teken, I understand now what you are saying. I will forgo the Brultech energy monitor and look elsewhere as my system is NOT Zigbee. I am going with Zwave. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk You do not have to forgo using the the Brultech energy monitoring but will need to adjust how you plan to implement the system together. There are really only two types of scenarios when it comes to energy management. One is simple awareness and changing your behavior. The other is reactive elements which allows you to meet targets, goals, electrical costs. Its safe to say when people enter the energy management scene its the first, awareness. The second element soon follows because what good is it knowing this information or obtaining data but can not react to it?? This is the path you're obviously planning on and hence why you ask here for feed back. Anytime I speak about Energy Management I always try to convey and express as much details to those interested in such. This is very much like your retirement planning. You need to be clear on the goal, target, and objectives you wish to meet. Some of the gear may have a small amount of sticker shock when purchased all at once. But, like you said this is being done in stages which is good and also allows you to learn, know, and experience what you have and get a better idea of really what you want. I am unsure how old you're right now but its safe to say if you're past 30. You have probably bought enough things in your life which you knew you should have bought the other the first go round. If you know your needs will only encompass the 7 circuits this is perfectly fine. But, if you know you would like to really know the big picture and monitor all the circuits in your home to really see where all the vampire draw are, and what loads impact your monthly bill etc. The GEM hands down offers the best and most powerful method to do so, all the while offering the lowest cost per CT when compared to any other energy monitor on the market. If you simply want to use your NAS to archive the data and use the ECM-1240 Dash Board software or other 3rd party packages to graph, chart etc there are many and does keep the initial purchase price down. The reality is we all have a budget and need to eat so lots of this needs to balance out in the big picture. I only provide my feed back to you and anyone else who is really interested in Energy Management that the GEM is the ultimate device to meet those needs. If you're crafty you can also send state variables from the Pi to the ISY which then would allow you to take advantage of those energy readings coming from the ECM-1240 etc. There are other solutions as well but wanted to ensure you were going to purchase the right gear with the correct expectations opposed to having some gear that did not meet your needs etc.
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks for the information Teken. Yes, I am 53 and am a master electrician and have been building U.S. Embassies for the last ten years. I am also LEED certified and LEED encompasses much of the renewable energy generation and control that, on a much smaller scale, I wish to incorporate into my domicile. Although I help design and install control and monitoring systems on a grand scale, I am not that familiar with the residential aspect, hence my coming to your forum and beginning my quest. Needless to say I've made your forum, my forum due to the vast amount of practical hands on knowledge and excellent feedback from members such as yourself. I DO wish to be instructed. I DO need to be pointed in the right direction on most of these things. While I understand the concepts very well, I am unfamiliar with a lot of the brands and makers in the residential market. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks for the information Teken. Yes, I am 53 and am a master electrician and have been building U.S. Embassies for the last ten years. I am also LEED certified and LEED encompasses much of the renewable energy generation and control that, on a much smaller scale, I wish to incorporate into my domicile. Although I help design and install control and monitoring systems on a grand scale, I am not that familiar with the residential aspect, hence my coming to your forum and beginning my quest. Needless to say I've made your forum, my forum due to the vast amount of practical hands on knowledge and excellent feedback from members such as yourself. I DO wish to be instructed. I DO need to be pointed in the right direction on most of these things. While I understand the concepts very well, I am unfamiliar with a lot of the brands and makers in the residential market. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Most excellent, and with that information do you really only need to monitor 7 electrical loads in the home? Do you for see expanding upon the electrical monitoring down the road for all circuits?
Guitartexan Posted February 28, 2015 Author Posted February 28, 2015 Indeed I do. I envision a separate CT for each circuit. I am very fortunate in that my home was built in 2012 and the electrician that wired it (bless him) separated all receptacles and lights to different circuits. Light circuits are independent of receptacle circuits. All switches have neutrals present. Also, rooms do not share circuits. In other words the living room/MB wall has receptacles in both rooms, but the receptacles are wired to their respective rooms, so I do not have a MB receptacle on a LR circuit.. One of my goals is to have the HA system automatically coordinate with the utility to automatically do certain chores to take advantage of off peak power. Also, my home has nothing-zero- zilch z-wave or any other HA in it, so I'm starting clean. I'm using the Netgear Nighthawk router because I intend to try to only use devices that are using the newest IEEE protocol. My intent is to keep the speed as high as possible and use mainly PoE devices where practical and a wired backbone of cat6. My scale is pretty small, but detail is everything in order to future proof my installation to allow for my comm and data systems to grow and upgrade. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 Indeed I do. I envision a separate CT for each circuit. I am very fortunate in that my home was built in 2012 and the electrician that wired it (bless him) separated all receptacles and lights to different circuits. Light circuits are independent of receptacle circuits. All switches have neutrals present. Also, rooms do not share circuits. In other words the living room/MB wall has receptacles in both rooms, but the receptacles are wired to their respective rooms, so I do not have a MB receptacle on a LR circuit.. One of my goals is to have the HA system automatically coordinate with the utility to automatically do certain chores to take advantage of off peak power. Also, my home has nothing-zero- zilch z-wave or any other HA in it, so I'm starting clean. I'm using the Netgear Nighthawk router because I intend to try to only use devices that are using the newest IEEE protocol. My intent is to keep the speed as high as possible and use mainly PoE devices where practical and a wired backbone of cat6. My scale is pretty small, but detail is everything in order to future proof my installation to allow for my comm and data systems to grow and upgrade. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I believe you're in very good shape regarding the homes over all structure considering it was only built in 2012. I know lots of us really like our toys and mini hobbies but when speaking about energy management and reducing over all costs. It really comes down to the structural envelope and how tight the structure is. To me it makes no sense in investing into electronics, gizmos, or any other auxiliary device until the home is as efficient as possible. I often see people spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on Insteon and expecting to see the same in return? No . . . Insteon will not save you hundreds or thousands of dollars during the course of the year. Only a properly insulated structure with high R value will do this. Besides having a tight envelope which does not allow the the heat / cool air to leak out. Thermal bridging is another key area to ensure is taken care of. One of the biggest contributors of reduction of energy costs is passive heating / cooling. In my home I have tried very hard to design, build, and use as many passive heating / cooling elements. Overall I have been 90% effective in my deployment but still have much to do in the next few years. Next is Energy Star appliances from furnace, HVAC, lighting, washer / dryer, and of course hot water. The rest comes down to lifestyle and the manner in which you use your appliances and devices in the home. Seeing as you're on the ToU perhaps if your meter is digital you could entertain using the ZS Series Controller which may allow you to participate in the ADR programs the POCO may offer etc. If that is not offered or your meter is not one listed as being a supporter of the ISY Series Controller than using the information from the Pi pumped into the ISY via State Variables will assist you to meet those ToU rates and targets. Also, since you have a Vera 3 I understand there is a Brultech plugin / ISY plugin. These two Vera plugins may also assist you in pumping in the required data from the ECM-1240 etc. Looking forward to seeing and reading about what path you decide to follow.
lilyoyo1 Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 I have had the opportunity to work with many different softwares/controllers and I have to say (In my opinion) the ISY994 is hands down, the best one by far. Vera's support is lacking, even in their community. The insteon plug-in isn't up to par. It helps but you will have better support with the ISY w/zwave than vera w/Insteon. I use both Insteon and Zwave; though Insteon forms the backbone of my system with Zwave filling in the gaps. Both are great systems, I just think the cons of Zwave outweigh the cons of Insteon. Once set up, I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I wouldn't get everything all at once. Upgrading to what you need later is a minimal costs compared to getting everything now and not using a lot of it. What you think you may need now, may change later as you delve deeper into your system. For example, (outside of command fusion on my tablet) I have zero need for an app. If you program your house based off your lifestyle, the need to log into an app and turn something on/off is very small. Personally, in all the years I have had automation, not once have I felt I needed an app. Start with the simplest thing. Lighting. This will give you the opportunity to learn the nuances of programming without being overwhelmed with the more complicated issues. It will also give you you the opportunity to gain the knowledge of what types of things you may want to do. You may find that what you want right now may change.
Guitartexan Posted March 2, 2015 Author Posted March 2, 2015 Thank you Teken for your detailed advice concerning my energy monitoring. And thank you as well, Richree for your valuable and no doubt hard won knowledge and insight. I have not attempted the all at once approach and will establish a home network first before expanding my device tree. I'm going to get a few switches and lighting scenes going first to get the big players all talking and interacting like I want,. This will be a dual router setup where the ATT uverse is the main controller handling the phones and entertainment and Netgear R8000 handles only the HA and related devices. Like the PLM and the power line filter. I want my next big focus to be my energy monitoring. I am looking at purchasing Brultech ECM-1240 Energy Monitor with Raspberry Pi B+ Data host and 8G sd card. System is completely setup and ready to go. The ECM-1240 is a multi-channel energy consumption monitor. It is used to measure consumption of up to 14 electrical circuits (breakers) including the main two phases . The ECM-1240 also has an optional pulse counting input. It can accept pulses from water or gas meter which have pulse outputs and provide consumption information. The Raspberry PI B+ accepts real time data from the ECM-1240 via the RS223 - USB cable. Data is stored locally ion the Pi and also uploaded to EMONCMS website where it can be viewed in real time. If I purchase this equipment for $150 and the GEM as well at retail, will I save money on parts and prices? Or buying things I don't need. More questions later I'm sure. Thanks to all who fancy to answer. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 Thank you Teken for your detailed advice concerning my energy monitoring. And thank you as well, Richree for your valuable and no doubt hard won knowledge and insight. I have not attempted the all at once approach and will establish a home network first before expanding my device tree. I'm going to get a few switches and lighting scenes going first to get the big players all talking and interacting like I want,. This will be a dual router setup where the ATT uverse is the main controller handling the phones and entertainment and Netgear R8000 handles only the HA and related devices. Like the PLM and the power line filter. I want my next big focus to be my energy monitoring. I am looking at purchasing Brultech ECM-1240 Energy Monitor with Raspberry Pi B+ Data host and 8G sd card. System is completely setup and ready to go. The ECM-1240 is a multi-channel energy consumption monitor. It is used to measure consumption of up to 14 electrical circuits (breakers) including the main two phases . The ECM-1240 also has an optional pulse counting input. It can accept pulses from water or gas meter which have pulse outputs and provide consumption information. The Raspberry PI B+ accepts real time data from the ECM-1240 via the RS223 - USB cable. Data is stored locally ion the Pi and also uploaded to EMONCMS website where it can be viewed in real time. If I purchase this equipment for $150 and the GEM as well at retail, will I save money on parts and prices? Or buying things I don't need. More questions later I'm sure. Thanks to all who fancy to answer. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I would honestly forgo the ECM-1240 because at some point in time the savings you had will begin to add up by buying more of the ECM-1240 units to monitor all circuit breakers. You would obviously need to design your mounting panel to accommodate more of them down the road. A GEM will offer 32 discreet channels and you can certainly add a few extra (loads) to a single GEM channel if there isn't enough. I would put it to you this way, that this is an initial investment so do it once. There has never been a single person who purchased a GEM and had buyers remorse, ever. Anyone who has purchased a ECM-1240 has at some point migrated to the GEM because it offers so much more now and into the future. In time you will realize why having 8 1 wire sensors is so powerful and meaningful. You can see directly how your outside environment directly impacts your energy consumption. At that point in time you can work on an action plan to help meet targets, goals, and energy costs. I am doing all of this and much more with my GEM, Dash Box, Autelis Bridge, and many other data loggers. My humble suggestion is to spend your money once by purchasing the GEM and knowing you're getting the best value and on going development from Brultech. You can still use your Pi, NAS, and any other 3rd party data logger should you choose. As you may or may not be aware Brultech also offers a stand alone Linux data server called the Dash Box (DB). This fantastic device will ingest, track, monitor, and archive all of your energy, voltage, temperature, and pulse information. The DB can also be used with the ECM-1240 so this is an option for you also should you wish to have a more plug and play hardware solution. If you have not seen my ongoing (lengthy install thread) located here please take some time to review the historic development and my journey to be all knowing! Located here: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Scyto Posted March 2, 2015 Posted March 2, 2015 I have to agree with Tekken that the GEM is awesome (and so is the dashbox if you are so inclined) especially for monitoring. My disappointment is the lack of integration with the ISY energy module, yes I am using pi to push the data into the ISYad variables but this hack means the mobilic power reporting is not accurate. Of course if you truly only have 5 circuits in your house (plus the 120v feeds) then perhaps the ECM is best for you.. of course this is very much down to your personal goals and preferences. I also plan to use Vera but only to integrate the items that the ISY doesn't yet support (hue and multichannel zwave) my preference for dimmers is insteon due to the scene linking and the look they have on the wall - the wife didn't like the zwave ones and at the time the pretty cooper one was double the price. we picked zwave switches for non dimming loads as we didn't like the empty led holes on the insteon. This makes it obvious to strangers what are switches and what are dimmers. It also had the side benefit of creating good front to back and top to bottom mesh networks for both. Personally I have found insteon far easier to get working then zwabe (irrespective of. controller). Hope that helps in some small way..
builderb Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Obviously not ideal, but if you want to run both Zigbee and Z-Wave, you can run two ISYs. That's supposed to get easier with the 5.x release too, as I recall. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Teken Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 Obviously not ideal, but if you want to run both Zigbee and Z-Wave, you can run two ISYs. That's supposed to get easier with the 5.x release too, as I recall. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Also, if I was unclear if you purchase the Dash Box (DB) with the GEM it will allow you to keep the Z-Wave in the ISY. The DB will then in turn pump all exposed GEM channels via State Variables into the ISY. This allows you to craft programs to manage your Insteon / Z-wave network. This is one of many features I pushed for development and integration. This allows the most robust and flexible HA solution to date without sacrificing very much to have all three major HA protocols. It was a very long road in getting all of this Beta tested for the general public. But the never ending hard work and development from Ben at Brultech made this happen! I know lots of folks who are enjoying the fruits of my labor and that of Brultech. ️ Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Guitartexan Posted March 3, 2015 Author Posted March 3, 2015 Well, I certainly appreciate all the good participation here to assist with this HA lifestyle I've chosen. I have been doing some intense reading and researching the GEM and dash box and I am forced to the conclusion that this is precisely what I've envisioned concerning my (eventual) energy monitoring system architecture. It is robust and has literally every feature I want, so yes, kudos to you Teken and Ben at Brultech. I am also needing information about distributed audio if anyone has some suggestions.... Multi-zone vs single zone and line level vs amplified. I've still got a million questions, but the sequence for me has to be what systems, parts and pieces am I going with, THEN buying and installing. My first priority is to get my iSy up and operating some switches. BTW, I'm on a deployment right now through April. I will be home for six weeks May-June, so that's my window for getting the garage controller/tilt monitor, the switches and receptacles installed and talking to the iSy with workable scenes that my wife and daughter can operate with confidence. Then I go on another deployment. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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