Gradual dimming?

[Andrew]

In the process of "analyzing" what my current wiring is an planning for switches and other things are going to be, 'm trying to find out how to set up our dimming (both switch-controlled and program-controlled) to turn dimmable lights on/off gradually.

 

However... I don't know what this is called! I'd like to be able to identify which control devices have this capability, if it's anything beyond simple dimming ability.

 

I know some switches can do this (esp. non-wireless ones) where you tap the control and the lights dim up but only to a predetermined level.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

thanks,

Andrew

[paulbates]

Hi Andrew

 

Ramp rate is the term you are looking for. Ramp rate is typically measured in minutes, seconds or portions of a second (1/2). Any Insteon dimmer can have its ramp rate configured for control at the switch, as well as by different scenes. These can be different values.  Example: You may want a room light to come on quickly by the wall switch, but dim slowly to off when controlled by a scene; eg slow dimming before watching a movie.

 

So you can program one behavior at the switch, and have the ISY issue other ramp rates via scenes, to the same switch.

 

I don't believe that there is different dimming behavior between different models of switches, they are either dimmer switches, or relay on/off only switches. I would be surprised if Zwave did not have this capability too, but I don't have any zwave.

 

One note of caution; CFLs typically can not / should not be dimmed unless they are identified as dimmable. LED bulbs need to be identified as dimmable if you are using them. Even then, they sometimes give mixed results.

 

Paul

[apostolakisl]

Just to prevent confusion, scenes are not just an ISY thing.  Scenes are native to Insteon and can be controlled directly by most Insteon devices, and/or ISY.  Basically, each dimmable switch has

 

1) Local attributes.  This includes the on level and ramp rate for its own leds and anything attached to its own load wire when you physically push the button on that switch.

2) any number of scenes that it can respond to

3) A single scene that it can control.  A switch acting as a controller only does so when you physically push the button on that switch.

 

A switch always has its local attributes, but it doesn't have to have any scene response/control if you don't want to program any.

 

When you set up the switch, you set the local ramp rate and on level.  This is how fast it ramps up/down when you physically push the button and to what level.

When you set up scenes, you can have that switch respond to any number of scenes where each scene can have a different ramp rate and on level affect at that switch (each switch in a scene can behave differently in the same scene)

If you make this switch a controller of a scene, then you set each responder switch to behave however you want at that switch, not at the control switch.  The control switch just broadcasts an "on" or "off" . . .the responding switch decides how to behave to the on or off command.  You can even have a switch turn off when it receives a scene on command.

 

This sounds complicated, and it is a bit.  But the ISY does a good job of simplifying it.  Without an ISY (or similar programming interface) it would be extraordinarily difficult to manually program anything more than just some simple stuff.

 

Insteon makes a lot more than just switches, but the same principles apply.  

[Andrew]

Great info here guys.

 

As far as "Scenes" go - the way I understand it is that a Scene is simply a collection of routines that run together, e.g. "Evening Yard" might activate landscape lighting at sunset, turn on a floodlight for a tree, and set a porch light to only go on to 50% if motion is detected.

 

As far as a switch's local attributes goes - this seems to mean how it responds to physically pushing the switch vs. activating remotely... Can the ramp rate be overridden with a program, though? (seem so based on Paul's note)... is that correct?

 

Not too complicated really, for me I just need to do some homework to understand the terminology a bit better, and the limitations.

 

This is fun. Looking forward to having more devices to goof around with.

[larryllix]

Great info here guys.

 

As far as "Scenes" go - the way I understand it is that a Scene is simply a collection of routines that run together, e.g. "Evening Yard" might activate landscape lighting at sunset, turn on a floodlight for a tree, and set a porch light to only go on to 50% if motion is detected.

 

As far as a switch's local attributes goes - this seems to mean how it responds to physically pushing the switch vs. activating remotely... Can the ramp rate be overridden with a program, though? (seem so based on Paul's note)... is that correct?

 

Not too complicated really, for me I just need to do some homework to understand the terminology a bit better, and the limitations.

 

This is fun. Looking forward to having more devices to goof around with.

Scenes are essentially "macros" built into each Insteon device. You can set On/Off/dim level/ ramp speed etc in each scene "macro" as a preset. Each Insteon device can usually hold a few hundred scenes.

 

Now Insteon devices can link together like say a wall switch and two other lamps plugged into receptacle units and all use that scene. When the wall switch is turned on it will send out that scene code and all units that have been linked to that scene code will now execute their "macro" settings.

 

Now here is the big one. No ISY is required for any of this. The devices are designed to work without any computers by themselves.

 

However, ISY makes setting all this up much easier, introduces timers for automatic Off delays, and introduces conditional logic to change how things respond. Of course ISY can do much more by emailing you etc.

 

In the ISY scenes are set up where the devices are all found and after drag and dropping several devices into a scene they act like one device in ISY. In the background when you create the scene in ISY it writes the linkage info into the involved device. Much easier than doing without ISY. Battery devices usually have to forced in and out of Linking mode to save battery usage.

 

I have a scene that turns Off all devices in the house and one that turns them all On. By activating alternating scenes I can make the whole house blink for serious alarm levels by operating two scene "devices".

 

Every scene in each device can have it's own ramp rate as well as ISY programs can set a ramp rate to be executed when operated as well as the local (at the switch) ramp rates.

[apostolakisl]

Great info here guys.

 

As far as "Scenes" go - the way I understand it is that a Scene is simply a collection of routines that run together, e.g. "Evening Yard" might activate landscape lighting at sunset, turn on a floodlight for a tree, and set a porch light to only go on to 50% if motion is detected.

 

**pretty much, you use the word "routine" , Larry above uses the word "macro".  Either way, when the call goes out for a scene to execute, each device does its own "routine" as you specified when you programmed it.

 

As far as a switch's local attributes goes - this seems to mean how it responds to physically pushing the switch vs. activating remotely...

 

** correct, 

 

Can the ramp rate be overridden with a program, though? (seem so based on Paul's note)... is that correct?

 

** ISY programs can reprogram devices.  So yes, you can have a program change the switches various ramp rates and on levels.  Ramp Rate and on level are always controlled by the devices' internal setup, so the device must be reprogrammed each time you want to change one of those things.  Or you have the device respond to more than 1 scene with each scene having the ramp rate you want. 

 

Not too complicated really, for me I just need to do some homework to understand the terminology a bit better, and the limitations.

 

This is fun. Looking forward to having more devices to goof around with.

[lhranch]

Scenes are essentially "macros" built into each Insteon device. You can set On/Off/dim level/ ramp speed etc in each scene "macro" as a preset. Each Insteon device can usually hold a few hundred scenes.

...

Every scene in each device can have it's own ramp rate as well as ISY programs can set a ramp rate to be executed when operated as well as the local (at the switch) ramp rates.

Thank you so much for this explanation.  You solved my problem tonight.

 

My requirement was to have backyard lights at 30% between sundown and midnight; when a motion sensor was triggered, fade them up gradually to 100%, wait a period of time, then fade them back down to 30%.

 

I had been trying to brute-force the fade times and levels in the ISY, hampered by the lack of a "fade down to a given target level" semantic.  Once I read your explanation, I created two new scenes, set the levels and ramp times of the scenes, then just had the ISY alternately turn them on.  Happily, when the lights are at 100% and the ISY issues the command to turn the 30% scene "on," it actually fades smoothly down to 30%, just like I wanted.

[larryllix]

Thank you so much for this explanation.  You solved my problem tonight.

 

My requirement was to have backyard lights at 30% between sundown and midnight; when a motion sensor was triggered, fade them up gradually to 100%, wait a period of time, then fade them back down to 30%.

 

I had been trying to brute-force the fade times and levels in the ISY, hampered by the lack of a "fade down to a given target level" semantic.  Once I read your explanation, I created two new scenes, set the levels and ramp times of the scenes, then just had the ISY alternately turn them on.  Happily, when the lights are at 100% and the ISY issues the command to turn the 30% scene "on," it actually fades smoothly down to 30%, just like I wanted.

Nice! Sounds like you are well on your way to understanding of ISY code writing.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

You can also use the Adjust Scene command in program Action instead of using two scenes. 

 

With kind regards,
Michel