Proper insteon device to control On/Off of shop vac and air compressor?

[JSP0511]

If you insist on connecting the dust collector to Insteon instead of one of the remote control devices designed for this application, I would suggest you use a power relay and an Insteon device to control activating the relay.

 

Dennis

Could the insteon micro relays be used at all in this situation?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DennisC]

Could the insteon micro relays be used at all in this situation?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would not use any device that supports dimming Or "brightening" for a motor load.

 

Dennis

[JSP0511]

I would not use any device that supports dimming Or "brightening" for a motor load.

 

Dennis

Aside from the dimming module, there are also on/off and open/close. Wondering if either of those could be used.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stusviews]

This 60 amp relay can be used for 110/120VAC devices: http://www.smarthome.com/elk-heavy-duty-relay-contactor-in-a-lockable-metal-structured-wiring-panel-enclosure.html

[G W]

Could the insteon micro relays be used at all in this situation?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They can be used to drive a high current mechanical relay that I mention before. That is the easiest and most reliable solution.

 

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

[DennisC]

The Elk relay would work, but I think it is overkill. I would probably use a 20 amp power relay with a low voltage coil for each (current of each device needs to be verified before a final determination is made). They can be found for a lot less $.

 

I think I would then either use a standard Insteon on/off switch or an IO Linc for control.

 

This is just my opinion.

 

Dennis

[larryllix]

Here are two designed for the job options.

 

Note that these are for light duty devices, which I believe you are using. For heavy duty dust collectors like 1.5 to 2 hp motors the price escalates into the hundreds of dollars.

 

Note these devices have a run-on delay timer to keep the device running (stable) after the power tool shuts off. No wiring to do, no specs to research and much cheaper in the long run.

 

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67020&cat=1,42401,72660

 

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=63013&cat=1,42401,72660

[stusviews]

Non-Insteon, non-ISY solutions are sometimes the best automation solution. Those devices make me want to buy a shop-vac and compressor

[DennisC]

I agree, there are several device like this available. They are simple and safer for a situation like this. Especially when programming is not required.

[GeneInSoCal]

I am a retired electrician.   I have an electric cart (Gem) with a battery charger that draws about 18 amps at startup.    I use a 30 amp 120 volt relay mounted in an 8x8x4 metal Hoffman type enclosure that in turn feeds a dedicated 20 amp cord for the battery charger. .   Also inside that enclosure, I use an Insteon din-rail mounted on/off relay model #2453-222 mounted on a small piece of din-rail.  I use that to break the 120volt coil circuit of the 30 amp relay.   I also mounted an external switch on the Hoffman enclosure that will manually engage the 120volt coil if I want to override the insteon program.

 

Sounds more complicated than it really is.   Basically, The Insteon relay is interrupting the coil circuit of the 30 amp relay.  Theoretically, you can do the same thing with any relay or motor starter up to about 100 amps (even a multi-pole relay/starter as long as the coil circuit of the relay/starter does not draw more than the rating of the Insteon din rail mounted relay (15 amps). 

 

I would not trust an Insteon device to open/close a load drawing more than 10 amps.

[JSP0511]

I am a retired electrician. I have an electric cart (Gem) with a battery charger that draws about 18 amps at startup. I use a 30 amp 120 volt relay mounted in an 8x8x4 metal Hoffman type enclosure that in turn feeds a dedicated 20 amp cord for the battery charger. . Also inside that enclosure, I use an Insteon din-rail mounted on/off relay model #2453-222 mounted on a small piece of din-rail. I use that to break the 120volt coil circuit of the 30 amp relay. I also mounted an external switch on the Hoffman enclosure that will manually engage the 120volt coil if I want to override the insteon program.

 

Sounds more complicated than it really is. Basically, The Insteon relay is interrupting the coil circuit of the 30 amp relay. Theoretically, you can do the same thing with any relay or motor starter up to about 100 amps (even a multi-pole relay/starter as long as the coil circuit of the relay/starter does not draw more than the rating of the Insteon din rail mounted relay (15 amps).

 

I would not trust an Insteon device to open/close a load drawing more than 10 amps.

Could you post some pictures of the setup? I'm a visual learner.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IndyMike]

Hello JSP0511,

 

To be blunt - these are not the type of devices that I would trust to automation.  Not just Insteon, but ZWave, UPB, X10, RadioRa - you name it.

 

All of the automation protocols are subject to programming and communication errors.  Think in terms of what would happen if your compressor or shop vac were to inadvertently turn on while you were away.  This is not something we can answer for you - it's your application. 

 

Personally, I would not install such a system without a manual override.  The problem is remembering to activate the override.

 

If I were to vote, I would vote in favor of the "purpose built" current sensing switches that larryllix posted.  I'm not sure if these are appropriate for you air compressor application - I'm unsure how you are using the compressor with your woodworking tools.

 

My 0.02,

 

IM

[larryllix]

Just as a matter of interest.

 

I went into The Source (Canada's old Radio Shack chain) and had a look at the old Insteon On/Off module for heavy duty appliances.

 

Yup 1800 watts max, except for one thing. That is for heaters almost exclusively resistive.... 480 watts incandescent load max. No motor rating period.

 

 

Again. Breakers have overload surge ratings, contacts on switches and relays do not. This was always a problem for Engineers in the electrical distribution industry. Busbar always had overload ratings but the contacts on the breakers spec'ed an absolute limit.

[xKing]

Running those loads on a contactors would also add a benefit of the ability to go 240V if needed

[bpwwer]

I've been using an X10 relay outlet to turn my dust collector on/off for years. I don't remember what brand but I bought 3 or 4 different brands and did destroy a couple of them with the startup current draw.  The nice thing about the X10 based outlets was that they were fairly inexpensive.  I really didn't expect it to last this long.  My dust collector is a fairly large cyclone unit on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. I was using an X10 mini remote and X10 transceiver, but the transceiver seems to have died so now I'm actually using the ISY via the admin console. I really need to get an Insteon remote and get it set up to replace the X10 mini remote.  Having to go inside and fire up the admin console to turn the dust collector on/off is a bit of pain.

[larryllix]

I've been using an X10 relay outlet to turn my dust collector on/off for years. I don't remember what brand but I bought 3 or 4 different brands and did destroy a couple of them with the startup current draw.  The nice thing about the X10 based outlets was that they were fairly inexpensive.  I really didn't expect it to last this long.  My dust collector is a fairly large cyclone unit on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. I was using an X10 mini remote and X10 transceiver, but the transceiver seems to have died so now I'm actually using the ISY via the admin console. I really need to get an Insteon remote and get it set up to replace the X10 mini remote.  Having to go inside and fire up the admin console to turn the dust collector on/off is a bit of pain.

My first go 'round was the same using an X10 remote  keyfob and a TW751? wireless receiver. It turned the dust collector on and then well, I had to unplug it as it never turned off again. Welded the contacts.

 

After lots of research looking for the old heavy duty X10 modules and researching the dust collector switches linked to, I found those premaid units were only capable of handling a very small dust collector inder 1 hp, I hooked a fresh TW751 into a 60amp mercury wetted relay that I knew could handle the surge. First turn on worked well and then the off...bang!. The counterEMF from the contactor coil blew the second TW751 inside and it never worked again..

Third try I used another TW751, same configuration, but placed  good 20Kj MOV across the rely coil. Works well now but the TW751 stops responding to the X10 remote when on sometimes. A walk across the shop to press the On/Off button is required occasionally.

[xKing]

I prefer low voltage contractor coils (kind of what is used in HVAC - 24V coil on 240V contractor). Yes that would require a transformer powered off the X10 or Insteon receptacle but much less chances of damaging the "smart" part

[larryllix]

I prefer low voltage contractor coils (kind of what is used in HVAC - 24V coil on 240V contractor). Yes that would require a transformer powered off the X10 or Insteon receptacle but much less chances of damaging the "smart" part

If a contactor is used it will require some kind of enclosure and wiring. A simple MOV across the coil will usually be enough.

[bpwwer]

I've been using an X10 relay outlet to turn my dust collector on/off for years. I don't remember what brand but I bought 3 or 4 different brands and did destroy a couple of them with the startup current draw.  The nice thing about the X10 based outlets was that they were fairly inexpensive.  I really didn't expect it to last this long.  My dust collector is a fairly large cyclone unit on a dedicated 15 amp circuit. I was using an X10 mini remote and X10 transceiver, but the transceiver seems to have died so now I'm actually using the ISY via the admin console. I really need to get an Insteon remote and get it set up to replace the X10 mini remote.  Having to go inside and fire up the admin console to turn the dust collector on/off is a bit of pain.

 

 

My first go 'round was the same using an X10 remote  keyfob and a TW751? wireless receiver. It turned the dust collector on and then well, I had to unplug it as it never turned off again. Welded the contacts.

 

After lots of research looking for the old heavy duty X10 modules and researching the dust collector switches linked to, I found those premaid units were only capable of handling a very small dust collector inder 1 hp, I hooked a fresh TW751 into a 60amp mercury wetted relay that I knew could handle the surge. First turn on worked well and then the off...bang!. The counterEMF from the contactor coil blew the second TW751 inside and it never worked again..

Third try I used another TW751, same configuration, but placed  good 20Kj MOV across the rely coil. Works well now but the TW751 stops responding to the X10 remote when on sometimes. A walk across the shop to press the On/Off button is required occasionally.

 

I welded the contacts of a couple of different X10 outlets the same way. I think I had one last for a handful of on/off cycles before it gave out.   The current one has been in place for a few years now and I'm very surprised that it still works.  I don't know what magic this particular brand uses but it seems to work.  Now I'm not using the dust collector every day and not even every week, but it is a Oneida-Air cyclone unit and probably has a 1.5 HP motor. 

 

When this X10 outlet gives out I'll have to look at other solutions. Probably just get one of the remote kits designed for it since I don't really need this tied to the automation system.

[larryllix]

I welded the contacts of a couple of different X10 outlets the same way. I think I had one last for a handful of on/off cycles before it gave out.   The current one has been in place for a few years now and I'm very surprised that it still works.  I don't know what magic this particular brand uses but it seems to work.  Now I'm not using the dust collector every day and not even every week, but it is a Oneida-Air cyclone unit and probably has a 1.5 HP motor. 

 

When this X10 outlet gives out I'll have to look at other solutions. Probably just get one of the remote kits designed for it since I don't really need this tied to the automation system.

I also have a 1.5 hp unit and I found no ready-made solution under hundreds of dollars. Being an old controls guy I had a few mercury wetted relays I salvaged from some automated testboards, went and bought a pvc box, installed a receptacle in it and hung a plug out of a drilled hole. Now I can plug in any module I want and stick the plug into the bottom that runs the relay coil.

 

I am hoping to post some photos of it but I can never figure out how to post photos on this forum.