smokegrub Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 I have a shallow well at a vacation home 325 miles from my primary residence. The water is pumped by a Utilitech Shallow Well Jet Pump (#0052306; 110v). I have checked the plate on the pump, and it has no information on the amperage. A search online has failed to provide this information as well. The pump is located in a small cellar which, at times, has high humidity from “sweating” of the pump and bladder tank. During the times we are away I use a motion activated sprinkler as a deer deterrent for the garden. My concern with this system is that I may have a pipe break, break in the water hose to the motion activated sprinkler or failure of the sprinkler itself. This would lead to the well probably pumping dry and the pump burning up. I have an ISY99i at the location and would like to have a device send me an email message whenever the pump runs and cuts off. Just knowing when it runs does me no good because in the event of a break it would just keep running until failure. Could the SynchroLinc be used to meet my goal? My guess is the amperage is 15 or less since the breaker for this device is 15 amps. If the SynchroLinc itself fails I want it to fail with the power to the pump off. Ideas?
stusviews Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 The SynchroLinc can handle 15 amps, so you're OK. The synchroLinc has an option to send an Insteon signal when the device turns on (high energy state) and also when the device turns off (low energy state). BTW, your pump is 3/4 hp.
smokegrub Posted July 3, 2015 Author Posted July 3, 2015 Thanks, Stu. If the SynchroLinc fails will it fail with the power off?
stusviews Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 That's not possible to predict for any Insteon device. But, the SynchroLinc does not control power to the device. It merely responds to there being a particular load or not. I'd like a better understanding of the pump. You indicated that the, "pump runs and cuts off." What cuts off the pump? Both the reason and the mechanism.
smokegrub Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 The Utilitech pumps from the well into a pressurized tank with bladder. The pressure is controlled by a mechanical pressure switch that is adjustable for low pressure (pump turns on) to high pressure (pump turns off). Flow is discharged from the tank by the pressure in the tank until the low pressure setting is reached. The pressure tank keeps the pump from short-cycling and diminishing its useful life. According to your prior post I could have the SynchroLinc send me an email when the pump turned off. Implicit in such an email is that the pump first turned on. Since the SynchroLinc is only a throughput device in terms of power supplied to the pump all should be well (no pun intended).
stusviews Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 You could have the SynchroLinc send you an email when the pump turned on and when it turned off.
fryfrog Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 I think most of the plug in modules can actually also detect on/off, so you could maybe use one of those instead. You could write a simple program that just always turns the pump off after it has been on for some amount of time. It'd also give you control from afar, if something happens and a pipe breaks... you'll be able to switch it off. Combine it with some strategically placed water sensors and it could be turned off automatically.
smokegrub Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 Duh! I don't know how I overlooked that. That is why I focused on the SynchroLinc. If ON send email. If OFF send email. Plus, I could access device at any time. Finally, the activity log would tell me when last on.
smokegrub Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 I looked at the specs for the 2634-222 Outdoor Module (Dual-Band) and it looks like a great fit for this application. 120v, 15 amps, 85% humidity. Also has load sensing, although I am not yet understanding that feature. Thoughts?
stusviews Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Load sensing: If the Insteon device is off and the load is switched from off to on, then the Insteon device turns on. That's all load sensing does. Here's what else can occur: If the Insteon device is on and the load is switched from off to on, then there is no response from the Insteon device because it's already on. If the Insteon device is off and the load is switched from on to off, then there is no response from the Insteon device because it's already off. If the Insteon device is on and the load is switched from off to on, then there is no response from the Insteon device because it's already on. So, load sensing is not a solution!
mwester Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 As stusviews says, load sensing is not a solution -- you need the Syncrolinc to sense current draw by the pump. I have a similar situation, except the other end of the water chain -- it's a septic pump. When the filter on the pump outlet gets plugged up, the pump runs way too long. If it's completely plugged up, then the pump will run forever (which won't damage it, but at 12+ amps of current draw, that gets really expensive!). My solution is a syncrolinc, into which I've plugged a new-style appliancelinc, into which the line to the septic pump is plugged. The ISY has a series of programs that manage this. The most important set of which is the set that is triggered when the syncrolinc detects current draw and counts seconds while the pump is running. If the pump shuts off within 10 minutes, all is well, and it sends me an email with the duration of the run. If the pump fails to shut off, the ISY triggers a z-wave siren for 30 seconds, illuminates a red "Alarm" button on a keypadlinc in the kitchen, and turns the appliancelinc off to power down the pump. After a few hours, it re-powers the appliancelinc -- and the cycle will continue. (The reason for this is that the clogged filter will often partially-clear with the back-flow from the pipe going up the hill to the septic field, so it makes sense to keep trying; it usually will pump the level down so that the system keeps working.) The duration of the run is currently managed manually, because the code to handle this elegantly in the ISY escapes me -- I've observed that the pump run time is a very good indicator of the filter's condition, if one smooths the curve to remove the outliers. A sudden increase in the running average of pump run-times would probably suffice, but managing lists is not easy in the ISY... Another to-do on my list is an indicator of "not-running" -- I'm thinking that correlating manually-initiated events (light switches, etc) with pump run events would handle this; I'd be looking for signs of human presence without the pump running, which would signal a tripped breaker or failed float switch. Setting the syncrolinc was the hardest part of this -- it seems the ISY cannot set the full range of current draw in the UI for the device, so I had to go through a fair amount of pain to catch the pump in a "run" state to do the push-button gymnastics to get the threshold set on the device itself. Unfortunate bug, and one that seems to have been with the ISY for a rather long time. (Edited to add: I turned off load-sensing -- I do not want the the appliancelinc to turn the septic pump on just because the float switch triggered! That could be a Very Very Bad Thing -- since the tank (and filter) is a long ways from the panel and breaker to shut off the pump while I'm cleaning the filter, I use MobileLink to turn off the Appliancelinc while I'm cleaning it -- just imagine what would happen if the float switch tripped while I had the cover off and the cleanout open, and load-sensing happily turned the pump on... No, I DO NOT want that to happen!!)
smokegrub Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 Thanks. I understand that load sensing is not useful in my application. However, I am somewhat confused. Today, I ordered an Outdoor Module (2634-222) thinking that was a better fit for my application than the SynchroLinc. Notifications for when the pump turns On and Off will give me a reasonable estimate of pump run time. If I do not get the Off notification in a reasonable time I may have a break and the pump is continuing to run. The Outdoor Module will allow me to check if the power is on and turn it turn off or just have it turn off by program. If the interval between runtimes is shorter than expected for my applicatiion I can again turn the pump off until I can have the situation assessed. Have I made a poor decision regarding the module?
Teken Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 I don't own a *Outdoor Module* so those who do should chime in. You will need to confirm how this device behaves upon power loss. Some of the firmware has changed over the years where the device initially at launch remained off when power was restored. Where as later versions of this device it returns to its last known state of either On / Off. You will really need to build in a few programs to act as a watch dog timer if this is mission critical. I've being doing this for a few circuits in my home and every time you think you've thought about all the possibilities or scenarios there is always something else that happens. Please test, validate, and confirm your set up and it goes with out saying having a robust Insteon network is paramount. Perform the 4 tap (beacon) test at the location and insure it passes. I am sure you don't want to be driving 325 miles just to find out you had poor coupling / bridging.
DennisC Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 If you are looking to sense current you can also use a current sensor. Dwyer makes some inexpensive ones. This opens up more Insteon choices for you. However, this will only provide you with on/ off notification, not control.
fryfrog Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 Thanks. I understand that load sensing is not useful in my application. However, I am somewhat confused. Today, I ordered an Outdoor Module (2634-222) thinking that was a better fit for my application than the SynchroLinc. Notifications for when the pump turns On and Off will give me a reasonable estimate of pump run time. If I do not get the Off notification in a reasonable time I may have a break and the pump is continuing to run. The Outdoor Module will allow me to check if the power is on and turn it turn off or just have it turn off by program. If the interval between runtimes is shorter than expected for my applicatiion I can again turn the pump off until I can have the situation assessed. Have I made a poor decision regarding the module? The outdoor unit will give you control of on and off, which it sounds like will be useful for *controlling* a run-away pump situation. You might still have to combine that with the syncrolink to see when it turns on and off.
smokegrub Posted July 4, 2015 Author Posted July 4, 2015 fryfrog: My thinking is that the timing of the notifications will provide the timing of ON/OFF. Candidly, when we are away the pump should run very rarely. It is the catastrophic event, e.g., hose break, failure of the motion-activated sprinkler or a pipe break that I want to be able to identify and control. Teken: Safety measures such as redundancy in programs will definitely be included. Will let the board know how this goes. My sincere thanks to all.
smokegrub Posted July 12, 2015 Author Posted July 12, 2015 I came to the conclusion that I needed both a SynchroLinc and the Outdoor Module. I have installed the Outdoor Module and the pump is running fine. I will finish the installation with the SynchroLinc in a week or so when I am on location. The setup of the SynchroLinc is going to be made difficult because of the need to have the device measure power ON requirements during setup. Can I somehow avoid this step using the software?
stusviews Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 You can use the ISY if you've measured the On and standby (Off) current using an ammeter. You can also take a guess, but you'll have to test the settings. If distance between the SynchroLinc and the pump is a problem, the Syncholinc does not need to be in it's final position to calibrate it. You can plug it in near the pump and then move it.
smokegrub Posted July 12, 2015 Author Posted July 12, 2015 The problem is measuring the off state, leaving the cellar and turning the water on elsewhere. Running back to the cellar and getting the power ON reading. To further complicate maters I may not have wifi in the cellar. Sounds like the ammeter is my best choice.
stusviews Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 Insteon devices do not use Wifi. In any case, the SynchoLinc is powerline only.
smokegrub Posted July 13, 2015 Author Posted July 13, 2015 I understand about Insteon and wifi. I was referring to being able to use my computer at that location to access the Admin Console. Sorry I wasn't clear. By the way, I may have found a reference to pump amperage. One source said 7.1/3.6. I take that to likely mean that 7.1 is the startup amperage and the running amperage is 3.1 or that is the amperage range for the pump depending on the lift distance. At any rate, install, setup and programming is apparently going to be a challenge. I hope I can continue to look to you folks for help.
Xathros Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 I understand about Insteon and wifi. I was referring to being able to use my computer at that location to access the Admin Console. Sorry I wasn't clear. By the way, I may have found a reference to pump amperage. One source said 7.1/3.6. I take that to likely mean that 7.1 is the startup amperage and the running amperage is 3.1 or that is the amperage range for the pump depending on the lift distance. At any rate, install, setup and programming is apparently going to be a challenge. I hope I can continue to look to you folks for help. Those amperage ratings are likely for 120V/240V operation with the lower amperage being for the 240V configuration. -Xathros
stusviews Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 Does the pump normally run 24/7? If not, what specifically causes the pump to run? What causes it to stop?
smokegrub Posted July 13, 2015 Author Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) stusviews: The pump is pressure activated. The pump is controlled by a pressure switch and pumps into a storage tank with a bladder. It activates at about 25 psi and cuts off at about 42 psi. In normal residential use it cycles on and off minimizing wear to the pump. We are away from the location most of the time and I plan to use a motion-activated water sprinkler to deter deer. The sprinkler operates briefly and resets for the next event. The sprinkler will be supplied by a hose from an outside hose bibb and will be activated only during the gardening season. When we are away from the location I am interested in knowing when the pump turns on and off. If those incidents are infrequent all is well. A simple program that sends me an email when the pump turns on and another when it turns off will give me data as to pump run frequency and since the emails have time indicated I will know approximately how long the pump ran. If I get the first email but not the second or the second comes much later than the time needed to fill the tank, I will know I have a serious problem and use the Outdoor Module to turn off the pump until I can investigate. I will place these programs in a folder activated by a device controlled on my MobiLinc or the Admin Console. Xathros: That information is most helpful. Edited July 13, 2015 by smokegrub
apostolakisl Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 I don't see the complexity in this. If the pump is 110/120v pump and is at the amps you listed above, a synchrolinc will work fine as a notification system. The only issue I see you having is that you probably don't have a standard wall plug for the pump and that is what they synchrolinc uses. I'm guessing it is hardwired in. Wherever your pump draws it's power, you need a standard plug, so a little electrician work is necessary. The power comes from an outlet, into syncrholinc, out of synchrolinc, to your pressure switch, then to the pump. When current flows, synchrolinc turns on and broadcasts that it turned on. The PLM picks up the broadcast and notifies ISY. This triggers a program that you wrote in ISY. When the pump turns off, the syncrholinc broadcasts an "off" and a similar process occurs. Synchrolinc does not affect power to the pump, it only monitors current through it. If status syncholinc is on Then wait x minutes notification "pump on too long" Else --blank-- So if the synchrolinc doesn't shut off before x minutes, then the email is sent. Otherwise, the program gets aborted when the pump shuts off and prior to the wait ending.
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