jerlands Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Lets speak plainly here shall we: Outside of something naturally occurring why is man here? Man is here at the very moment to learn, harness, and control his environment. Everything man does is ultimately to serve his needs and in doing so they coexist. This statement could be misconstrued.. you leave enough holes to fill with whatever but I ask.. why does anything come into existence? Ultimately I find the answer to be.. a need. and as far as naturally occurring.. if you bring anything into existence how do you do it? don't you first have to think about it and construct it in your mind in some fashion or other? maybe bits at a time? Jon...
Teken Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 This statement could be misconstrued.. you leave enough holes to fill with whatever but I ask.. why does anything come into existence? Ultimately I find the answer to be.. a need. and as far as naturally occurring.. if you bring anything into existence how do you do it? don't you first have to think about it and construct it in your mind in some fashion or other? maybe bits at a time? Jon... Well yes man needs to come up with the idea or in many cases stumble upon it. History has proven that many inventions were merely found by accident and not by design or thought. Regardless of the above my intent in this thread was to offer insight and feed back about what has been field proven. This isn't one persons dream, idea, or wish. Companies like APC, Leviton, Eaton, the goes on have tried very hard to offer a product that does what? Meet a need, and in doing so follow best industry practices outlined by engineers and scientist that have vast amounts of personal experience in the field. Whether it be the CEC, NEC, IEEE, NIST, UL / cUL these organizations have over lapping contributions to the question about surge protection / fault tolerances. What I take issue is that Westom believes the two are mutually exclusive? Really??? What is mutually exclusive is comparing a cellular tower to a standard built home! No building that a normal person resides in is crafted or grounded in the same fashion, none! So because this is the case and material fact what is a person to do? It comes down to compromise and making due with solutions that have been field proven to work in all manner of industry. Westom does not address why certain industries mandate that optical isolation is the only tried and true method to negate voltage rise / voltage sag events. Why??? Because optical isolation is field proven . . . A properly built and designed and spec'd opto isolator can not inject more voltage then the sender receiver is designed and built to operate in. The only recourse for a high voltage condition is to summarily melt the device down. Again this is why as I have stated here and in many other forums which the IEEE, NIST, and many others indicate a *Layered Approach* is the best method in a *system* When I supported the military and saw first hand why it is everything is built with layers and redundancy systems. Its because each layer serves a specific purpose in the over all design plan. That is to first reduce loss / risk . . . Next is to have a measure of fail over to insure if something fails something else in line will be at the ready to pick up the slack. The most dangerous and powerful Abrams tank in the USA arsenal is not summarily protect against EMP / Induction just by grounding! It is protected primarily by shielding, isolation, and high tolerance of components. Grounding is obviously integral to the overall design of the system but it is not the primary method to survive EMP or induced high voltages. Magnetic isolation transformers are used every day in my home and in every part of the world. Why??? In part to insure line voltage is never allowed to exceed the design limits of the users environment. It is also used to physically isolate the user from outside forces. A properly designed and built 1 to 1 isolation transformer will never allow line voltage to exceed 120 VAC, ever. That is the whole purpose of its transformer winding's and the transfer of power via magnetic induction. When companies (name what ever) use the above solutions these are field proven methods used in military, hospital, etc. These industries didn't use these methods because some guy named Teken said it was a good idea! They use them because they are field proven to operate in the most extreme conditions where earth grounding is not able to address specific conditions. I hope the information provided helps the forum members and I encourage anyone to seek out the information themselves and find balance.
westom Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) The IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. Earthing occurs elsewhere. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. Plug-in protectors do not work by earthing a surge. Because plug-in protectors are only for a surge that is already made irrelevant by protection inside every appliance. He conveniently ignores what that IEEE guide says. I now recognize who he is. His job is to promote plug-in protectors. So let's add what in that guide was ignored: Page 15 There are three requirements of the service entrance SPD. They are as follows: 1) To suppress the larger surges from the outside environment to levels that would not be damaging to equipment at the service entrance, or to equipment (air conditioning, wired-in appliances) directly connected to the branch circuits. 2) To reduce the surge current to the downstream SPDs (including multiport SPDs). 3) To stop the large lightning currents from passing into the house wiring system and damaging the wiring or inducing large voltages that would damage electronic equipment. Those are required to even protect plug-in protectors. Since plug-in protectors do not claim to do any of that; to protect from a typically destructive type of surge. Without a 'whole house' protection (service entrance SPD), then plug-in protectors do virtually nothing - can even create house fires. Page 22: 2.3.1 Grounding An effective, low-impedance ground path is critical for the successful operation of an SPD. High surge currents impinging on a power distribution system having a relatively high grounding resistance can create enormous ground potential rises(see Section 4 beginning on page 30), resulting in damage. Therefore, an evaluation of the service entrance grounding system at the time of the SPD installation is very important. Page 22 2.3.2 Lead Length To achieve optimum overvoltage protection, the connecting leads between the SPDs and the panel or protected equipment should be as short as possible and without sharp 90-degree bends. ... For fast-rising lightning pulses, the inductance of these leads produces large voltage drops. These large inductive voltage drops are added to the inherent limiting voltage of the SPD, raising the effective limiting voltage at the service equipment terminals. The inductance of the wire is the determining factor rather than the resistance of the wire. The inductance is a function of the length and the loop area of the circuit including the SPD. Selfinductance is a property of the length and diameter of the wire, while mutual inductance is a function of the loop area. Both types of inductance are present in every wire. ... All professionals state this. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Critical is that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to single point earth ground. Plug-in protectors do not have it. Only the protectors that do 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection always have that earth ground connection. So that protection even from direct lightning strikes costs about $1 per protected appliance. Page 27: Telephone line "primary protectors" have been required for almost 100 years, ... These large currents can only be dealt with by a direct connection to the building or power panel ground. The NEC/CEC are very explicit in requiring this connection (code sections above), and it has been required for many years. Even 100 years ago, protection was always about earthing a surge BEFORE it could enter the building. Then protection inside every household appliance is not overwhelmed. Finally on page 33 is what happens when plug-in protectors are used without a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. Page 33 Figure 8 shows a plug-in protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV. Just another reason why facilities that cannot have damage earth 'whole house' protectors. Upgrade their earthing to increase protection. Want protectors within feet of earth ground and up to 50 meters distant from electronics (increased separation increases protection). And ignore spin that sells magic box protectors. The NIST guru even defines how plug-in protectors can damage electronics in his 1994 IEEE paper: Conclusion: 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Plug-in protectors without a properly earthed 'whole house' solution, according to Martzloff, can even make appliance damage easier - just like the IEEE brochure shows in figure 8. Destructive surges may occur once every seven years. Effective protection is installed only for those anomalies that can actually overwhelm protection inside all household appliances. 'Whole house' protection is an absolute necessity to avoid such damage. Plug-in protectors without that 'whole house' solution can even make damage easier. As for fire, Sharron posted in 2008 in "Surge Protector fire hazard? yes in this case" I was just walking by the small closet there and heard a popping sound as well. I opened the closet to see smoke and flames. I yelled at Madelyn to get outside, I then proceeded to pull a few things out of the closet, a box that had one of Madelyn's xmas gift in a cardboard box, the mop and a walmart plastic bag holder and a few other small things. When I got that stuff out the only thing left was the surge protector. Flames were coming out it. Kimbertonfire.org explains why plug-in protectors (with too few - thousand - joules) cause a fire: An investigation led him to a melted odwn surge protector. An office by office search revealed another surge protector ... that was starting to melt down ... The manufacturer ... was contacted to see if similar incidents have occurred ... Newpoint stated that the surge protector had absorbed all of the energy it was capable of absorbing and melted down as a result. The surge protectors involved were not on a recall list. Of course the new owners of APC discovered plenty of APC protectors were so fire prone as to be removed immediately. But half truths posted by another says protector fires do not exist. On March 2014: https://forums.thefirepanel.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6334 Be wary of those near zero joules protectors that will magically provide protection. Especially if a properly earthed 'whole house' protector is not installed. Edited September 13, 2015 by westom
westom Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) No building that a normal person resides in is crafted or grounded in the same fashion, none! So because this is the case and material fact what is a person to do? ... Why??? Because optical isolation is field proven . . . Optical isolation was not used even 100 years ago when each thunderstorm resulted in about 100 surges to each Telco CO (switching center) without damage. Homeowners can easily do same. But that means addressing the only item that must always exist or be upgraded to have effective protection - single point earth ground. That does not enhance profits for his company. But that is the only solution that worked effectively even 100 years ago and is the primary solution today. Nobody said 'whole house' protection is 100% effective. But the IEEE provides numbers that describe how effective when using proper earthing: Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice. Best protection that costs about $1 per protected appliance means no house fires, protection that is a practical choice, and does not enrich employees of his plug-in protector company. I am an engineer who actually did this stuff. He is a sales promoter. Professionals strongly recommend proper earthing of a 'whole house' protector. And ignore outright lies that plug-in (undersized) protectors have not caused fires. In every facility that cannot have damage, earthing is upgraded to both meet and exceed NEC requirements. Some facilities also use a 'whole house' protector. Other facilities do not even need that protector. But every properly protected building (including homes) always has every incoming wire connected low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to that single point earth ground. Either via a protector (telephone, AC electric) or directly via a hardwire (cable TV, satellite dish). He will not discuss this because it may reduce his company's profits. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which an expensive Panamax clearly does not have and will not discuss. Informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector from any of those 'companies of integrity' cited earlier. Then a plug-in protector does not make surge damage easier. IEEE's Page 33 Figure 8 - a plug-in protector earthed a surge 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV. He even denied plug-in protectors created fires. Otherwise sales might be harmed. Edited September 13, 2015 by westom
Teken Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 I am unsure if my communication method is less than stellar? Can you simply answer this question: Can a single point ground protect a piece of electronics from a voltage sag? Can grounding offer protection against a sustained voltage rise of 150 VAC? Will proper grounding offer any protection against frequency drift? Lastly, will proper grounding offer any means of isolation to a device / component? If you can't reply with an answer to these basic questions. I fear conversing about this topic will be extremely difficult. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
westom Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 (edited) Can you simply answer this question: Can a single point ground protect a piece of electronics from a voltage sag? Can grounding offer protection against a sustained voltage rise of 150 VAC? Will proper grounding offer any protection against frequency drift? OP asked about surge protection. Even surge protectors will not protect from (will ignore) those anomalies. Why not return to other irrelevant topics such as EMP and GFCIs. OP asked about surge protection - especially from lightning. That is the topic. Proven by over 100 years of science and experience is a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. For homeowners, this costs about $1 per protected appliance. This superior solution is also a least expensive one. It is the only solution for the OP - and all others here. It is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Edited September 13, 2015 by westom
Teken Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 OP asked about surge protection. Even surge protectors will not protect from (will ignore) those anomalies. Why not return to other irrelevant topics such as EMP and GFCIs. OP asked about surge protection - especially from lightning. That is the topic. Proven by over 100 years of science and experience is a properly earthed 'whole house' solution. For homeowners, this costs about $1 per protected appliance. This superior solution is also a least expensive one. It is the only solution for the OP - and all others here. It is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Alright I'll bite please show me the BOM for something that cost a dollar. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Teken Posted September 13, 2015 Posted September 13, 2015 Once again I shall reference the IEEE / NIST. Which clearly indicate a point of use type 3 SPD is something that should be used in any layered surge arresting system! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
Michel Kohanim Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Hello everyone, As much as I enjoy discussions about specifications, I am afraid this thread is becoming more than just a civil discussion and quickly becoming a tool for ad-hominem. For the sake of professionalism and integrity of this forum, I have not choice but to ask everyone to conclude this thread. Thanks in advance. With kind regards, Michel
westom Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) . For the sake of professionalism and integrity of this forum, I have not choice but to ask everyone to conclude this thread. Teken once called himslef Bud. He is paid to promote plug-in protectors. He must avoid discussion of what makes hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant. Since a plug-in protector has no earth ground. It will not claim to make hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant. And has a history of even making adjacent appliance damage easier (IEEE brochure Figure 8 ). Should we ignore a history of fire? All over the world, facilities that cannot have damage use properly earthed 'whole house' protection. Homeowners can install this for about $1 per protected appliance (repeated because Teken distorts the expression to misrepresents it - it is his job). 'Whole house' protectors come from other companies with integrity. A proven Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot. Other sources of effective solutions include General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Square D, Syscom, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Keison. Leviton, and Intermatic. All names known for quality. Ineffective products are sold by APC, Belkin, Panamax, and Tripplite. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher prices. Monster makes products that are similar to APC, Belkin, etc. Did Teken ignore that APC recently admitted many of their plug-in protectors have caused house fires - must be removed immediately? Another problem found with grossly undersized and plug-in protectors designed to increase profit - not to provide effective protection. How does that near zero protector block or absorb surges when even its specification numbers do not claim such protection? Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Even the protector must not fail. An IEEE brochure (that Teken quotes selectively) says earthing is essential to surge protection. Multiple paragraphs with page numbers were quoted. Earthing harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules so that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.. So that even plug-in protectors do not cause fires. Did someone deny plug-in protectors have caused multiple fires - to protect sales? Every source cited by Teken said 'whole house' protection is essential to protection - to even protect plug-in protectors. But then I did this stuff generations ago - as an engineer. Teken is a sales promoter paid to promote near zero but highly profitable protectors. As a result, he turns every discussion nasty - hoping you will tune out. He cannot say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Honesty would only harm profits. In some facilities, an employee can be fired for using products he recommends. They do not spend tens of times more money on products that can even create fires - and that do not protect from the other and destructive surge. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As stated by sources that discuss protection - with spec numbers. Including an IEEE paper from Teken's IEEE guru - who says 'point of connection' (plug-in) protectors can even make appliance damage easier. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Teken cannot say. it is his job to obfuscate. Protection means a surge is connected low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) to what does protection - single point earth ground. Ineffective and very expensive plug-in protectors do not have that connection, will not discuss earth ground, and will not say where energy harmlessly dissipates. Otherwise you might become informed. No way around over 100 years of proven science and experience. Why does your telco suffer 100 surges with each storm and not suffer damage? They don't use plug-in protectors. They only use properly earthed 'whole house' protectors - even 100 years ago. Each protection layer is only defined by earth ground - which plug-in protectors do not have and will not discuss. Any protector without an earth ground is not a protection layer. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 - a protector without earth ground can even earth 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV - from Teken's IEEE brochure. He conveniently forgets to mention figure 8. That would harm sales. Informed homeowners properly earth one 'whole house' protector - to even protect Teken's plug-in protectors - to even avert a potential house fire. Each layer of protection is defined by what a protector connects to - by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - a 'whole house' protector connect low impedance (ie less that 10 feet) to single point earth ground. As understood even 100 years ago. Edited September 16, 2015 by westom
larryllix Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 These ad hominem attacks are not welcome in any forum. Always address the issue only and not the person. You may have displayed some good information but at this point nobody is listening to either side, anyway. You have been asked and acknowledged it by quoting the request. Thank you.
paulbates Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) I've reported the additional post to the moderator, with a very specific recommendation of what to do about it. Edited September 16, 2015 by paulbates
Teken Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Teken once called himslef Bud. He is paid to promote plug-in protectors. He must avoid discussion of what makes hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant. Since a plug-in protector has no earth ground. It will not claim to make hundreds of thousands of joules irrelevant. And has a history of even making adjacent appliance damage easier (IEEE brochure Figure 8 ). Should we ignore a history of fire? All over the world, facilities that cannot have damage use properly earthed 'whole house' protection. Homeowners can install this for about $1 per protected appliance (repeated because Teken distorts the expression to misrepresents it - it is his job). 'Whole house' protectors come from other companies with integrity. A proven Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot. Other sources of effective solutions include General Electric, Siemens, ABB, Square D, Syscom, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Keison. Leviton, and Intermatic. All names known for quality. Ineffective products are sold by APC, Belkin, Panamax, and Tripplite. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher prices. Monster makes products that are similar to APC, Belkin, etc. Did Teken ignore that APC recently admitted many of their plug-in protectors have caused house fires - must be removed immediately? Another problem found with grossly undersized and plug-in protectors designed to increase profit - not to provide effective protection. How does that near zero protector block or absorb surges when even its specification numbers do not claim such protection? Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Even the protector must not fail. An IEEE brochure (that Teken quotes selectively) says earthing is essential to surge protection. Multiple paragraphs with page numbers were quoted. Earthing harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules so that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.. So that even plug-in protectors do not cause fires. Did someone deny plug-in protectors have caused multiple fires - to protect sales? Every source cited by Teken said 'whole house' protection is essential to protection - to even protect plug-in protectors. But then I did this stuff generations ago - as an engineer. Teken is a sales promoter paid to promote near zero but highly profitable protectors. As a result, he turns every discussion nasty - hoping you will tune out. He cannot say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Honesty would only harm profits. In some facilities, an employee can be fired for using products he recommends. They do not spend tens of times more money on products that can even create fires - and that do not protect from the other and destructive surge. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As stated by sources that discuss protection - with spec numbers. Including an IEEE paper from Teken's IEEE guru - who says 'point of connection' (plug-in) protectors can even make appliance damage easier. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Teken cannot say. it is his job to obfuscate. Protection means a surge is connected low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) to what does protection - single point earth ground. Ineffective and very expensive plug-in protectors do not have that connection, will not discuss earth ground, and will not say where energy harmlessly dissipates. Otherwise you might become informed. No way around over 100 years of proven science and experience. Why does your telco suffer 100 surges with each storm and not suffer damage? They don't use plug-in protectors. They only use properly earthed 'whole house' protectors - even 100 years ago. Each protection layer is only defined by earth ground - which plug-in protectors do not have and will not discuss. Any protector without an earth ground is not a protection layer. Page 33 (Adobe page 42) figure 8 - a protector without earth ground can even earth 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV - from Teken's IEEE brochure. He conveniently forgets to mention figure 8. That would harm sales. Informed homeowners properly earth one 'whole house' protector - to even protect Teken's plug-in protectors - to even avert a potential house fire. Each layer of protection is defined by what a protector connects to - by what harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - a 'whole house' protector connect low impedance (ie less that 10 feet) to single point earth ground. As understood even 100 years ago. First you need to get your facts straight. I have never been known or used the alias of Bud. I have over 20 plus years always used Teken or the combination of EVIL Teken in all of my forum posts. Second I do not work or have any affiliation to any vendor that makes any sort of SPD's. None . . . Again, information was provided to all for a balanced approach which I emphasized that a layered system using type 1-4 SPD's. I am uncertain as to why this is so hard to comprehend? No one including I disagree that grounding is important which was clearly states about 9999999 times! Yet critical information which pertains to induced voltage, EMP, solutions are ignored. Those are the facts end of story. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
westom Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I am uncertain as to why this is so hard to comprehend? No one including I disagree that grounding is important which was clearly states about 9999999 times! Then why recommend SPDs that have no earth ground? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector without earth ground is clearly not a layer of protection AND does not claim to protect from destructive surges. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which means protectors from many listed companies of integrity. And not near zero (and many times more expensive) plug-in protectors only recommended by hearsay. A plug-in protector can even compromise superior protection inside appliances AND has a history of creating fire. Homeowners have a simple and well proven solution. One properly earthed 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance means protection even from direct lightning strikes. That is the simplest, least expensive, and only proven solution. Again, plug-in protectors have no earth ground - do not claim and cannot provide effective protection. And must be protected by one properly earthed 'whole house' protector. It was that simple even 100 years ago.
Teken Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I am at a complete loss at your reply?!? You do realize in most modern day homes there is a ground wire, right? Which is attached to the very same electrical panel and depending upon codes / location will also be bonded to the main water pipe. Every UL listed 1449 3rd Edition device uses three prongs. If grounding in a home is so good why then would anyone bother installing anything to start with? It's not like a person will have any method to change it out when it exist already. Saying that is the case is ludicrous! As you insist upon stating protection can be had for a dollar please share with the group how this can be achieved and meet all codes and certification!?!? This endless circle talk is truly astounding. As I quoted above from another person please show me where a current spec'd UL 1449 3rd Edition device has caused a fire? I am at a complete loss where you believe any SPD I have referenced has no ground? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
westom Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) I am at a complete loss at your reply?!? You do realize in most modern day homes there is a ground wire, right? Which is attached to the very same electrical panel and depending upon codes / location will also be bonded to the main water pipe. Repeating relevant electrical engineering concepts. Wire is never a perfect conductor. Wire is another electronic component. The expression was repeated often: low impedance (ie less than 10 feet). This concept is understood from basic electric knowledge taught to first semester EE students. Many only assume think wire thickness is relevant. It is not. Wire length is critical. Even sharp wire bends, splices, and metallic conduit can compromise protection. These also increase impedance. Safety ground at a wall receptacle clearly is not an earth ground for so many reasons including splices, wire bends, conduit, wire length, and not separated from other non-grounding wires. You must know basic concepts BEFORE making protection recommendations. Protection is always about a connection to earth. Why does an IEEE brochure (figure 8 ) show an adjacent protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructive into a nearby TV? Because it is only connected to a safety ground. It does not connect low impedance to earth ground - an electrically different ground. UL1449 is a human safety standard - it says nothing about appliance protection. So a power strip protector must have that third prong for human safety. That human safety ground is only for human protection - does not do transistor protection. We even traced surges earthed by plug-in protectors through a network of powered off computers. Because that adjacent protector was too far from earth ground. Plug-in protectors damaged many computers for the same reason Figure 8 shows a protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively via nearby TVs. Even figure 8 shows that safety ground is not earth ground. Please read (stop ignoring) these technical citations. Engineers who must design protection so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage are very familiar with those completely different grounds, damage due to high impedance (protector too far from earth ground), and other relevant concepts such as equipotential. Unfortunately most who recommend plug-in protectors only know what hearsay and advertising recommends. Even ignore near zero specification numbers in most plug-in protectors. How many joules does it claim to absorb? A plug-in protector without a properly earthed 'whole house' protector can even make appliance damage easier and in rare cases - fire. Informed homeowners spend about $1 per protected appliance for one properly earthed 'whole house' protector - to protect everything from all types of surges - including direct lightning strikes. This technology has been proven by over 100 years of science and experience. It is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Why need I explain it again? The AT&T forum in post 22 http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16803-thinking-about-getting-a-whole-house-surge-protector/page-2?do=findComment&comment=148940 explained this quite bluntly. Why do you even ignore post 22 and the so many other professional citations - that even demonstrate that wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. Please learn these basic electrical concepts before recommending a near zero protector. Edited September 16, 2015 by westom
Teken Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 OK, as Mitchel has asked that this stay relevant and pertinent. How do you suppose the average person will meet your expectation of earth grounding?!?! Lastly, you insist upon stating $1.00 could address this. Please show me how this is done with BOM. I am always eager to learn something new. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
westom Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 How do you suppose the average person will meet your expectation of earth grounding?!?! Earth grounding must exist for human safety. That same ground both meets and exceeds code requirements to also do transistor safety. These concepts are well defined by sources that recommend effective and proven appliance protection. Even discussed in so many previous citations including the AT&T forum. A utility demonstrates what every homeowner must provide to have protected appliances. Demonstrated is good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions: http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp That Tech Tip should be obvious to anyone who knows surge protection and the relevant electrical concepts. It is only the 'secondary' protection layer. Again what defines every protection layer? Earth ground (not a protector). Homeowners should also inspect their 'primary' surge protection layer. Pictures demonstrate what to inspect: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html Every homeowner can earth one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance. That needs no explanation since it was explained previously and repeatedly. If you know otherwise, then provide numbers from your own experience. Or go out and learn by doing this stuff. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. For all protectors - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Teken Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Earth grounding must exist for human safety. That same ground both meets and exceeds code requirements to also do transistor safety. These concepts are well defined by sources that recommend effective and proven appliance protection. Even discussed in so many previous citations including the AT&T forum. A utility demonstrates what every homeowner must provide to have protected appliances. Demonstrated is good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions: http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp That Tech Tip should be obvious to anyone who knows surge protection and the relevant electrical concepts. It is only the 'secondary' protection layer. Again what defines every protection layer? Earth ground (not a protector). Homeowners should also inspect their 'primary' surge protection layer. Pictures demonstrate what to inspect: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html Every homeowner can earth one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance. That needs no explanation since it was explained previously and repeatedly. If you know otherwise, then provide numbers from your own experience. Or go out and learn by doing this stuff. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. For all protectors - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. I see its apparent you have no real answer to such a simple question. Keeping in mind I have asked you numerous times to explain and offer a alternate solution about grounding in a existing home! I am going to try to keep this very simple OK. The POCO installs the meter and this meter is grounded to EARTH. This same single point ground is used in the electrical panel. This same single point earth ground is referenced by all wiring in the home. Given the above how is the home owner going to improve upon this? Magic?!? As I clearly indicated way above I have a type 1 SPD which is installed at the meter base. Which as I stated uses the same single point earth ground. Is this not enough ? Now, to add to this layer another type 2 SPD is also installed at the electrical panel. Where do you suppose this device is attached to? You got it, the same single point ground that the outside meter is. Is this not enough? Now, to aid in point of use protection type 3 SPD's in various forms are also installed with various specs based on my needs. They are grounded to what!?!? Oh you guessed it to the same single point earth ground! I don't think I can be any clearer on this topic. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
jerlands Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Informed homeowners spend about $1 per protected appliance for one properly earthed 'whole house' protector - to protect everything from all types of surges - including direct lightning strikes. This technology has been proven by over 100 years of science and experience. It is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. There is no electronic protection available for direct lightning strike. Lightning rods are installed to prevent fire and whole house surge can't react in time. The only defense to a direct strike is unplugging all devices from outlets during heavy storms. Jon...
Teken Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Earth grounding must exist for human safety. That same ground both meets and exceeds code requirements to also do transistor safety. These concepts are well defined by sources that recommend effective and proven appliance protection. Even discussed in so many previous citations including the AT&T forum. Safety ground at a wall receptacle clearly is not an earth ground for so many reasons including splices, wire bends, conduit, wire length, and not separated from other non-grounding wires. You must know basic concepts BEFORE making protection recommendations. Protection is always about a connection to earth. UL1449 is a human safety standard - it says nothing about appliance protection. So a power strip protector must have that third prong for human safety. That human safety ground is only for human protection - does not do transistor protection. Oh the irony is something to marvel . . .
larryllix Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 There is no electronic protection available for direct lightning strike. Lightning rods are installed to prevent fire and whole house surge can't react in time. The only defense to a direct strike is unplugging all devices from outlets during heavy storms. Jon... The protection againt direct lightning strike is attempt to distract it from your sensitive parts...(Ouch! ) and try to eliminate it from becoming so large (not your sensitive parts!) by bleeding the charge with a pointed and grounded lightning rod.
jerlands Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 The protection againt direct lightning strike is attempt to distract it from your sensitive parts...(Ouch! ) and try to eliminate it from becoming so large (not your sensitive parts!) by bleeding the charge with a pointed and grounded lightning rod. The resounding emphasis of this discussion is ground.. there just isn't enough of it in a 1/2" conductor.. Jon...
ScottAvery Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Westom, Is the proposal in fact to install a new grounding rod, new bonding, and a type 1 SPD? Which whole house item specifically? what "earthing" solution do you propose? edit: typo Edited September 16, 2015 by ScottAvery
Recommended Posts