Thinking about getting a whole house surge protector

[westom]

I've looked into SurgeX/Zero Power WVR (Spectrum Wide Voltage Range) technology but haven't purchased anything yet.

 

 

First, Surgex demonstration shows how an adjacent protector simply gives a surge more paths destructively into adjacent appliances - ie a destroyed resistor. That plug-in protector (or UPS) failure was stated here repeatedly.

 

Second, MOVs fail (as shown) only when grossly undersized.   That happens when a plug-in (near zero) protector (hundreds or thousands of joules) tries to absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules.  Another problem with plug-in protectors that was stated here repeatedly.

 

Third Surex discusses ground contamination while ignoring what was stated here repeatedly.  Safety ground (that gets contaminated) is electrically and completely different from earth ground.  That difference between receptacle safety and earth ground was stated here repeatedly.

 

Fourth, protection is about where hundreds of thousand of joules harmlessly dissipate.  Surgex only claims to absorb maybe 6000 joules?  A larger and destructive surge current still passes though a Surgex into attached appliances - but does not damage the Surgex.  Protection (only from smaller surges) is about $100 per protected appliance.  Effective protection is for everything for about $1 per protected appliance as stated here repeatedly.

 

Fifth, a 'whole house' protector is completely different from protectors that foolishly try to block or absorb surges - plug-in protectors, UPS or a Surgex.   Specific model numbers are irrelevant and unnecessary. Since protectors are simple dumb science.  An informed consumer goes to his big box hardware store, electrical supply house, or Internet provider to request a 'whole house' protector.  It must have that dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth.  And it must be rated at least 50,000 amps. That simple as was stated here previously.  

 

Sixth, a UPS, plug-in protector, or Surgex is only supplementary. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector must be installed even if using those other devices.  A properly earthed 'whole house' solution is effective protection with or without those other 'tens of times' more expensive products that also claim to absorb many times less energy.

Edited September 17, 2015 by westom

[jerlands]

 

Fourth, protection is about where hundreds of thousand of joules harmlessly dissipate.  Surgex only claims to absorb maybe 6000 joules?  A larger and destructive surge current still passes though a Surgex into attached appliances - but does not damage the Surgex.  Protection (only from smaller surges) is about $100 per protected appliance.  Effective protection is for everything for about $1 per protected appliance as stated here repeatedly.

 

No, they were applying 6,000 VOLT surge.. maybe 180,000 joules?

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

Fifth, a 'whole house' protector is completely different from protectors that foolishly try to block or absorb surges - plug-in protectors, UPS or a Surgex.   Specific model numbers are irrelevant and unnecessary. Since protectors are simple dumb science.  An informed consumer goes to his big box hardware store, electrical supply house, or Internet provider to request a 'whole house' protector.  It must have that dedicated wire for a low impedance connection to earth.  And it must be rated at least 50,000 amps. That simple as was stated here previously.  

 

 

So you don't believe in "layering" surge protection?

 

Jon

[westom]

So you don't believe in "layering" surge protection?

 

 

 

 

Please read what was posted rather than jumping to unjustified conclusions.  Stated here repeatedly is that protectors do not provide layered protection.  Stated here repeatedly are the 'secondary' and 'primary' protection layers.

 

6000 volts does not mean 180,000 joules.  Where did that number come from?  If demonstrating 180,000 joules, then those burn parts were have vaporized explosively.

 

Surgex (and equivalent series mode filters) typically absorb about 6000 joules spike; not 180,000 joules.   Only for one or some appliances.  If anything needs protection, then everything needs protection.  Informed consumers spend about $1 per protected appliance to earth one 'whole house' protector - for protection from all types of surges including and not limited to direct lightning strikes.

Edited September 17, 2015 by westom

[jerlands]

6000 volts does not mean 180,000 joules.  Where did that number come from?  If demonstrating 180,000 joules, then those burn parts were have vaporized explosively.

 

 

6,000V X 3,000A X (?t) = approx... 180,000 joules  ok.. time was unknown so I guessed

 

Jon...

Edited September 17, 2015 by jerlands

[westom]

6,000V X 3,000A X (?t) = approx... 180,000 joules  ok.. time was unknown so I guessed

 

 

Typical surge is defined in datasheets for protector parts.  A surge is a microseconds event.  A typically surge is called 8/20 microseconds.    Defined above is a well less than 500 joules surge.  Such surges are often consumed by electronics as electricity to be converted and safely power its semiconductors.  Protection already inside electronics makes that near zero surge irrelevant.

[jerlands]

Oops.. I stand corrected   however, looking at the demo you'll see a typical MOV fail where the surgex unit survived.  don't you think that significant or is this simply a deceptive sales gimmick?

 

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

Typical surge is defined in datasheets for protector parts.  A surge is a microseconds event.  A typically surge is called 8/20 microseconds.    Defined above is a well less than 500 joules surge.  Such surges are often consumed by electronics as electricity to be converted and safely power its semiconductors.  Protection already inside electronics makes that near zero surge irrelevant.

 

Also curious as to whether you're suggesting type 3/4 surge protection unnecessary?

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

[westom]

Also curious as to whether you're suggesting type 3/4 surge protection unnecessary?

 

 

Let's put numbers to it (do not remember if these numbers were already provided).  A properly earth 'whole house' solution does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection.  A plug-in protector (type 3/4) may be an additional 0.2% protection.  Explains why facilities that cannot have damage always implement a properly earthed 'whole house' solution.  As the IEEE says, 

 

Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per  6000 years ... 

 

In some facilities, an employee might be fired for using plug-in protectors for reasons stated previously and repeatedly.  As the Surgex video demonstrates, it can compromise superior protection inside appliances by connecting a surge to safety ground (not earth ground).  It can cause fires.  It does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges.  It only claims to protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage.

 

Why do a majority not learn about a proven and least expensive solution?  Advertising without numbers even has many (if not a majority) foolishly believing even a UPS is a surge protector.  Specification numbers aline would dispel that urban myth,  But a majority of eyes glaze over with numbers.  Most want to be taught subjectively - meaning junk science is alive and well.

 

Series mode filters (Surgex, Zerosurge, Brickwall) have a purpose.  But not for protection of everything in the house and not from the larger surges that are typically destructive.  Plug-in protectors must be protected by a properly earthed 'whole house' solution most often provided by other companies known for their integrity.

 

And finally, every layer of protection is only defined by an item that harmlessly absorbs massive energy - earth ground (not a protector).  Protection of appliances is the 'whole house' solution.  Protection of the structure is Ben Franklin's lightning rods.  Both examples are only as effective as its earth ground.

Edited September 17, 2015 by westom

[jerlands]

 

In some facilities, an employee might be fired for using plug-in protectors for reasons stated previously and repeatedly.  As the Surgex video demonstrates, it can compromise superior protection inside appliances by connecting a surge to safety ground (not earth ground).  It can cause fires.  It does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges.  It only claims to protect from a type of surge that typically causes no damage.

 

 

How do you connect any internal wiring to earth ground?  Doesn't it all go to "safety ground?"  Second.. the Surgex video claims to prevent damage to surge at the point home wiring would catch fire.  Lastly, Surgex calls itself a "surge eliminator" in that it does not discharge but magically absorbs the surge.

 

Jon...

[jerlands]

Let's put numbers to it (do not remember if these numbers were already provided).  A properly earth 'whole house' solution does 99.5% to 99.9% of the protection.  A plug-in protector (type 3/4) may be an additional 0.2% protection.  Explains why facilities that cannot have damage always implement a properly earthed 'whole house' solution.  As the IEEE says,

 

What causes electronics to fail?  I would think it's not only destructive surge but repetitive exposure to high voltage transients.  My understanding is 80% of household surges are generated on the load side e.g., motor starting.

 

Jon...

[westom]

How do you connect any internal wiring to earth ground?  Doesn't it all go to "safety ground?"  Second.. the Surgex video claims to prevent damage to surge at the point home wiring would catch fire.  Lastly, Surgex calls itself a "surge eliminator" in that it does not discharge but magically absorbs the surge.

..

First the term has been repeated how many tens of times?  Low impedance (ie less than 10 feet).  That simple electrical concept cannot be ignored (like Teken does repeatedly).  If earth ground was same as safety ground, then the contamination that Surgex mentioned would not exist.

 

Wire is never a perfect conductor.  For example, put a 100 amp surge on a wall receptacle's safety ground that has a 50 foot connection to a mains breaker box.  That means about 120 ohms impedance.  From high school science, 100 amps times 120 ohms impedance means something less than 12,000 volts on the wall receptacle and attached appliances.  Why does that surge seek earth ground 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV (IEEE brochure figure 8 )?  You have assumed wire is a perfect conductor.  Wire is an electronics device.  As stated so many times previously, safety ground is electrically different from earth ground.  Above example, combined with so many stated previously demonstrates that reality.  Safety ground and earth ground are electrically different.  

 

Why need I repeat same over and over?  Do any eyes not glaze over when numbers are posted with facts?

 

Second, where are numbers that say house wiring will catch fire.  (a) If a Surgex is protecting house wiring, then it must be located where AC electric enters the house - and do what a 'whole house' protector is doing.

 

And then we add numbers.   An 18 AWG lamp cord (a ten amp wire) can conduct up to a  60,000 amp surge without melting or fire.  Household wiring is about twice as thick.  And the all so important earth ground wire is four or more times thicker.  How many amps are conducted through that wire to a Surgex?  © After 3000 amps, it becomes a short circuit (inductors saturate and stop impeding current).  Where is this household wire protection?

 

Unglaze eyes (or reread those paragraphs) to appreciate numeric significance.  Surgex claim is subjective (qualitative).  Similar to how junk science gets promoted.  Above numbers are quantitative - based in reality. Most of us are easily manipulated by subjective (qualitative) claims best called urban myths or advertising.  Numbers (perspective) result in a completely different conclusion. And are not found in soundbyte logic.

 

Third, a Surgex can only absorb limited (small) energy.  Then it magnetically saturates - acts like a short circuit.  It is for tiny surges - at a price tens of times higher than a well proven 'whole house' solution.  Surgex only does what they claim it will do.  See its numbers to appreciate how little.  And how much more compared to plug-in or UPS (magic box) protectors.  Perspective means quantitative answers - that means numbers.

Edited September 17, 2015 by westom

[jerlands]

First the term has been repeated how many tens of times?  Low impedance (ie less than 10 feet).  That simple electrical concept cannot be ignored (like Teken does repeatedly).  If earth ground was same as safety ground, then the contamination that Surgex mentioned would not exist.

 

Wire is never a perfect conductor.  For example, put a 100 amp surge on a wall receptacle's safety ground that has a 50 foot connection to a mains breaker box.  That means about 120 ohms impedance.  From high school science, 100 amps times 120 ohms impedance means something less than 12,000 volts on the wall receptacle and attached appliances.  Why does that surge seek earth ground 8000 volts destructively through a nearby TV (IEEE brochure figure 8 )?  You have assumed wire is a perfect conductor.  Wire is an electronics device.  As stated so many times previously, safety ground is electrically different from earth ground.  Above example, combined with so many stated previously demonstrates that reality.  Safety ground and earth ground are electrically different.  

 

So how do you dissipate load related surges?

 

Second, where are numbers that say house wiring will catch fire.  (a) If a Surgex is protecting house wiring, then it must be located where AC electric enters the house - and do what a 'whole house' protector is doing.

 

This video explains the surge generator used and why 6,000V with 3,000A

 

Jon...

[westom]

So how do you dissipate load related surges?

 

 

Again, stated previously and repeatedly.  Protection is about where hundreds of thousands of joules (and lesser surges) harmlessly dissipate.  A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Same sentence posted how many times answers the question.

 

Most of us only automatically believe a first thing told.  Then challenge or deny anything that comes later; no matter how many times it is posted with numbers based in science.  It explains why most only know about protectors promoted by soundbytes and advertising myths.  A protector does not do protection. But that sentence contradicts soundbytes.  So it must be wrong?

 

A video promoted a myth:that wires would burn up.  Numbers to expose that myth were provided.  So you ignore numbers and believe the myth?  A 10 amp (18 AWG) lamp cord wire can carry a surge up to 60,000 amps. A 3000 amp surge is trivial.  Propaganda experts know consumers often only believe a first thing told.  This is an example.

 

That surge can be made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances.  How many times was that posted and not read?  Transient would not exist had a homeowner properly earthed one 'whole house' protector.  As explained how many times with numbers?  But again hearsay is cited as truth because it was the first thing heard.

 

Why do you need something only because advertising (ie that video) said you needed it?  How many times a week are you replacing damaged LED bulbs, dimmer switches, the air conditioner, clocks, dishwasher, stove, alarm system, and GFCIs?  Maybe existing internal protection already makes hyped fears into myths?  What are you really trying to protect from?  How many appliances were destroyed this month?  How often were your unprotected wires burned?  Why not ask these damning questions?

[Brian H]

Thanks for you post. 8 outlets surge protector from bestek is my first choice. I have used this surge protector for about 2 years. In the charging process, I don't have to worry about charging safety. From using this tool, we can charge about 6 tools in the same time. It is good quality but much experience than other brand surge protectors. Maybe you can search bestekmall on Google to catch more information about it. Best wishes. 

Some surge suppressors have a noise filter in them also. So some may absorb the Insteon Power Line Commands as noise.

I had some with an across an AC power line rated .1uf 250VAC capacitor in them absorb both X10 and Insteon power line commands.

Lucky for me they where on a small PCB and could easily be removed.

[ISYhbsh01]

Some surge suppressors have a noise filter in them also. So some may absorb the Insteon Power Line Commands as noise.

I had some with an across an AC power line rated .1uf 250VAC capacitor in them absorb both X10 and Insteon power line commands.

Lucky for me they where on a small PCB and could easily be removed.

That post you responded to seems to have been a spam post. Edited July 25, 2017 by hbsh01

[larryllix]

That post you responded to seems to have been a spam post.

Yes, we have some paid work-at-home spammers here that use very sneaky techniques. That one didn't even post a link but used it in context to get hits via a search.

Looks like reporting it worked....gone!

Edited July 25, 2017 by larryllix

[Brian H]

Thank you for the heads up on how crafty the Spammers are now getting.

I will have to look more closely in forums I attend or moderate.

[larryllix]

Its a big business.

 

Previously we had a spammer family living down the street. They owned two of the larger homes on the street with pools. I saw no visible means of support and they all were always  blocking traffic while they played street hockey.

 

Suddenly, an article in the newspaper appeared, giving their nmes and addresses about their spamming practices. Google and a few other biggies were threatening to sue them for two $million if they didn't stop. The article reported they previously settled out of court  for over $200K with another online biggie for abuse of their email services. That didn't seem to slow them down any.

 

I thought about dumping garbage in their pool every week back when spam was ruining the functionality of email accounts. Tit for tat?

Edited July 26, 2017 by larryllix

[lilyoyo1]

I'm with Teken in that I prefer a layered approach. With the amount of money I've spent on electronics, adding a few layers of protection is a minimum cost.

 

I pretty much use what Teken uses except for a different whole house surge protector. My TVs and fridges have the same leviton outlets, etc

 

Yes, a direct strike will probably knock out a bunch of things. However, if I can save a few more, then the cost is more than worth it.

[westom]

Yes, a direct strike will probably knock out a bunch of things. However, if I can save a few more, then the cost is more than worth it.

 

If a direct strike causes that damage, then protection was defectively installed.    If damage happens, a resulting study starts with THE only item that must exist and that defines each protection layer - earth ground.  Any protector without that earth ground is not a layer of protection.  Homeowners can expect lightning to cause completely unnecessary damage if a 'secondary' protection layer or a 'primary' protection layer earth ground is missing, defective,  or compromised.

 

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Effective protection (that is also much less expensive) is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules (and therefore smaller surges) are harmlessly absorbed. Then robust protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed - even by direct lightning strikes.

 

Damage is directly traceable to a human mistake.

Edited August 2, 2017 by westom

[lilyoyo1]

When I built my house it was built with automation in mind. Everything that was done was designed to lessen the chance of something going wrong.

 

I'm not trying to be technical about it, at the end of the day, man can do what he wants but mother nature will find a way. I'm just trying to set up as many roadblocks as possible

[westom]

When I built my house it was built with automation in mind. Everything that was done was designed to lessen the chance of something going wrong.

 

Unfortunately we tend to learn 'after' the fact.  Others can learn from a mistake.  Protection of all appliances is best done when e footing are poured - an Ufer ground.  Having not done that, then best protection was still possible by burying a ground wire encircling the house before back filling.  Both create what defines protection - equipotential.

 

That would have made a 'whole house' protector more effective.  Meanwhile every wire in every incoming cable (TV, OTA antenna, telephone, invisible dog fence, satellite dish) must connect low impedance (ie less than 10 feet) to that single point earth ground.  Otherwise all household appliances (even dishwasher,  GFCIs, refrigerator, recharging electronics, clocks) remain at risk.

 

These solutions were well understood even 100 years ago.  Did you know them before building a house?  Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine only when effective protection is installed or upgraded.  Upgrading that existing protection layer and inspecting a 'primary' layer may be desirable.

[lilyoyo1]

My house was built brand new. I'm not concerned about the ground since code requires it anyway. When it comes to protection I'm ok with whats been done.

 

If my surge protectors doesn't do anything that's fine, I'd still rather have them than not. If you feel it's not worth it for your house then that's your choice.

Edited August 3, 2017 by lilyoyo1

[westom]

My house was built brand new. I'm not concerned about the ground since code requires it anyway. When it comes to protection I'm ok with whats been done.

  

 

Ground sufficient for human safety must be upgraded to both meet and exceed what is only required to provide human safety.  Ground to protect appliances must be superior - ie single point earth ground, less than 10 foot, hardwire has no sharp bends, and hardwire routed away from other non-grounding wires.

 

This you know.  If that protector does not make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot) connection to earth ground (which is clearly not wall receptacle safety ground), then that protector may even make surge damage easier. If a 'whole house' solution does not exist, then better is to not have plug-in protectors.  Then superior protection already inside every appliance is not compromised.

 

Two completely different devices - both are called surge protectors.  A plug-in one is ineffective if 'whole house' protection does not exist and is not properly earthed.