isy revisited

[sloop]

been months since my little isy has had any luv - or any thoughts about it - it just sits hidden away doing what isys do

 

i am not one that wants to tinker with my automated lighting every week - or every month - i wanted to set up my lighting and not have to make the maintenence the center of my life

 

today i decided to open the admin console and check for updates - the install was successful so i guess its back to ignoring it for another year

 

nice to have a product that does what it claims to do without needing constant attention - can't wait for the upb version so i can dump the craplincs

 

thanks again isy nerdlincs - great product - hope you are all rich and have pretty women throwing themselves at you

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello sloop!

 

Long time no see! Thanks so very much for revisiting us back. Drop by once in a while.

 

UPB has been put on hold for a while mostly because we do not see an ROI especially given the fact that Simply Automated and HAI have both ditched UPB for HomePlug. Your thoughts are, as always, welcomed.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

 

been months since my little isy has had any luv - or any thoughts about it - it just sits hidden away doing what isys do

 

i am not one that wants to tinker with my automated lighting every week - or every month - i wanted to set up my lighting and not have to make the maintenence the center of my life

 

today i decided to open the admin console and check for updates - the install was successful so i guess its back to ignoring it for another year

 

nice to have a product that does what it claims to do without needing constant attention - can't wait for the upb version so i can dump the craplincs

 

thanks again isy nerdlincs - great product - hope you are all rich and have pretty women throwing themselves at you

[sloop]

never heard of homeplug - but i just read a little about it

 

(problem with nerd sites is they start from an assumption that you understand what the subject matter is)

 

if i understand it correctly, its a new open standard for communications among home electronic devices - with some of the devices already available being powerline based communication devices

 

i see several ethernet extenders are available and people seem to review them favorably - i also see sling media is advertising their media extender as homeplug compliant

 

i wonder how adding either of these devices would impact craplincs?

 

i see lighting devices are included in the standard - but did not see any that are available now - any manufacturers on board yet?

 

now i ain't telling you your business or anything - and i ain't asking directly - but i'd bet a multivendor standard that encompasses more than light switches might have a good chance of catching on - and might be a good business opportunity for nerdlincs with some expertise in the area

 

being able to plug in a tv or cablebox or microwave and NOT having to jumble together 8 controllers from 8 vendors (each with a master plan) would be real home automation - not that i want to turn my microwave on from 3 states away, but there are those...

 

i could see some uses though - something i have been researching lately - the cooktop vent liners - the insert type - i want one with halogen lighting like my undercabinet lights - but i want to control both the vent lights and the undercabinet lights - the closest thing i have found is the best by broan liners that use 110v halogens - but you can add an additional light bar that can be controlled with its own switch - if the hood was homeplug compliant, that problem would be solved

 

or maybe a standardized homeplug module for appliances (or electronics)that could be added by the consumer

 

in any event, i will hold off on the hood liner until i can buy the universal devices model - (i do want a wall mounted controller so i won't have to reach up inside the hood to operate it - and i want the blower mounted remotely)

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi sloop,

 

You are right on: HomePlug is a standard (well, nowadays everything is a standard) specifically designed for hi throughput communications over powerline. This means that your Slingbox can stream video over powerline. By extension, this means that you can upgrade all your devices on the fly.

 

There are multiple profiles for HP one of which is HPCC (command and control). Currently there's a debate going on as to whether or not one should simply use the HP 1.0 stack (high bandwidth) and be done with it. Personally, I think if the price is the same, HP 1.0 is superior, proven, and provides for extensibility and scalability in the future.

 

HAI and Simply Automated have announced that they will be manufacturing HPCC devices.

 

Your hood liner is on our requirements list!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

never heard of homeplug - but i just read a little about it

 

(problem with nerd sites is they start from an assumption that you understand what the subject matter is)

 

if i understand it correctly, its a new open standard for communications among home electronic devices - with some of the devices already available being powerline based communication devices

 

i see several ethernet extenders are available and people seem to review them favorably - i also see sling media is advertising their media extender as homeplug compliant

 

i wonder how adding either of these devices would impact craplincs?

 

i see lighting devices are included in the standard - but did not see any that are available now - any manufacturers on board yet?

 

now i ain't telling you your business or anything - and i ain't asking directly - but i'd bet a multivendor standard that encompasses more than light switches might have a good chance of catching on - and might be a good business opportunity for nerdlincs with some expertise in the area

 

being able to plug in a tv or cablebox or microwave and NOT having to jumble together 8 controllers from 8 vendors (each with a master plan) would be real home automation - not that i want to turn my microwave on from 3 states away, but there are those...

 

i could see some uses though - something i have been researching lately - the cooktop vent liners - the insert type - i want one with halogen lighting like my undercabinet lights - but i want to control both the vent lights and the undercabinet lights - the closest thing i have found is the best by broan liners that use 110v halogens - but you can add an additional light bar that can be controlled with its own switch - if the hood was homeplug compliant, that problem would be solved

 

or maybe a standardized homeplug module for appliances (or electronics)that could be added by the consumer

 

in any event, i will hold off on the hood liner until i can buy the universal devices model - (i do want a wall mounted controller so i won't have to reach up inside the hood to operate it - and i want the blower mounted remotely)

[upstatemike]

I wonder if Homeplug will finally provide the universal ata channel that has been missing in Home Automations? It wouldbe nice if there was a single Data Bus that works for simple devices (lighting and appliances) as well as for high bandwidth applications like media straeaming.

 

The lack of this standard is why you still have to reset the clock on your stove after a power failure. There should have been a standard for synchronizing appliance clocks to a central home reference for at least a decade or more but the roadblock always comes down to the fact that there is no protocol that has emerged as enough of a standard that appliance manufacturers are willing to invest in features of this sort.

 

The argument has always been that a high banwidth protocol is overkill for simple switches etc. so you get things like UPB and Insteon and Zigbee/Z-Wave that are cheaper but not really a true standard. (Also the applications always rapidly outgrow the initial bandwidth assumptions which is why it takes so long to poll an entire lighting installation to verify the true state of devices.)

 

I wonder if HomePlug has what it takes to become a standard or if the price of regular TCP/IP will continure to drop to the point where it becomes practical to adopt it as a defacto standard and integrate it into light switches and other low end devices?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi upstatemike,

 

Currently, most utilities in the U.S. are pushing Zigbee for communications between the meter and the HAN (Home Area Network). This said, however, they have realized that Zigbee is not reliable for larger installations and thus have proposed a HomePlug/Zigbee SEP solution. SEP stands for Smart Energy Profile which includes the application layer for home control and synchronization. They are pushing HP stack because they require the bandwidth for such things as upgrading the firmware on thermostats, displays, and retrieving logs (which I do not like at all).

 

Although the protocol is immaterial for us, but I am a strong believer in the fact that the market should decide what that protocol should be. Or, better yet, the market should decide if there needs to be more than one.

 

There are also ISO standards being developed (18012 and 18045) to address precisely what you are describing. Unfortunately, though, some are pushing UPnP as the application layer.

 

As far as WiFi, I am in total agreement with you: GainSpan currently has very inexpensive low power, boot strapped, WiFi chips. Cisco and Intel are pushing for IPSO which is an Object model for device communications over WiFi (/Max).

 

In short, I am very excited as the future holds quite an interesting landscape which I would surely want to experience!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I wonder if Homeplug will finally provide the universal ata channel that has been missing in Home Automations? It wouldbe nice if there was a single Data Bus that works for simple devices (lighting and appliances) as well as for high bandwidth applications like media straeaming.

 

The lack of this standard is why you still have to reset the clock on your stove after a power failure. There should have been a standard for synchronizing appliance clocks to a central home reference for at least a decade or more but the roadblock always comes down to the fact that there is no protocol that has emerged as enough of a standard that appliance manufacturers are willing to invest in features of this sort.

 

The argument has always been that a high banwidth protocol is overkill for simple switches etc. so you get things like UPB and Insteon and Zigbee/Z-Wave that are cheaper but not really a true standard. (Also the applications always rapidly outgrow the initial bandwidth assumptions which is why it takes so long to poll an entire lighting installation to verify the true state of devices.)

 

I wonder if HomePlug has what it takes to become a standard or if the price of regular TCP/IP will continure to drop to the point where it becomes practical to adopt it as a defacto standard and integrate it into light switches and other low end devices?

[sloop]

as i understand it, the standard has multiple specifications

 

- HomePlug 1.0 + AV (in-home connectivity, including digital home and consumer electronics applications)

- HomePlug BPL (to-the-home, Broadband-over-Powerline applications)

- HomePlug Home Automation (command-and-control applications)

 

i assume the standard focusses on packet delivery and error detection and correction - and not the contents of the data delivered (though i can't tell from what i have read) - seems to support time and frequency multiplexing (seems to me stat mux would be the way to go withinin each frequency)

 

does not say much about wireless - so i suppuse the standard focusses on powerline communications only

 

some appliances already support a wireless connection - i have looked at refrigerators and freezers that will report status wirelessly but i don't think it will set clocks or allow you to program them (yet)

 

this is long overdue

[sloop]

but the best news is - maybe we will get a scope or sniffer out of this - the mystery of powerline communications offends my sense of completeness

 

and we don't want that now do we

[MikeB]

I know HomePlug has been around for a while, but it seems like it has picked up some traction recently. I know Russound is using HomePlug for their powerline audio products.

[upstatemike]

I wonder how many powerline standards you can run at once? All 3 homeplug protocols plus Insteon plus UPB plus X-10 plus wireless intercoms plus... I just don't think there is enough bandwidth for all these players.

 

I also don't see a lot of value in BPL or 1.0 + AV. Broadband is already available by satellite, phone lines and cell towers for locations with no cable or fiber. BPL may benefit utility companies to gather more info on consumer power use but it does not actually benefit the consumer that I can see.

 

Likewise the AV application. Tons of methods exist for streaming AV over ethernet. it seems foolish to invent a whole new protocol for that. Better to standardize the way a regular TCP/IP stack is transmitted over powerlines. I think TCP/IP in a home LAN should be the universal data/AV/Control standard and then just offer more standardized options for the physical layer, including ethernet over powerline.

[sloop]

i am guessing that any standard that does not play homeplug could not coexist on the powerline - which would be interesting if someone that shares my transformer installed homeplug - not sure how my craplincs would react but i would think homeplug would see my craplinc traffic as noise

 

it would be interesting to see craplincs try to get a signal through when 4 neighbors were streaming video through all our homes - 3 retries - lol

 

i would think there is a provision to handle such situations

 

i'd like to test that with a slingbox slinglink - but ain't spending that kinda money to satisfy my curiosity

[Sub-Routine]

Good to see you again sloop! Long ago Michel agreed that home automation should be something to setup and forget; I believe the ISY has accomplished that goal.

 

Have a nice holiday,

Rand