danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 I just got a new ISY from smarthome and I tried to link my zwave thermostat. Sadly I had great issues doing so. I had it in a small TV stand about 6 or 7 feet away from the thermostat and couldn't find it with the ISY. Now I have another zwave controller about 40 feet away two rooms over in a cabinet that it works just fine with this thermostat. I joined it to this old controller after failing with the ISY. So is my ISY defective? I almost hope so with this type of performance. I took it out of the cabinet and pulled it within 6 feet direct line of sight and it works, but I couldn't even get it to pair/join the ISY without going through the remove zwave from the old controller. This was a new thermostat and had never been joined to the old controller. The remove zwave on the ISY didn't work. Any thoughts?
stusviews Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Z-Wave devices are RF only and RF is less dependable that is the powerline (albeit, RF doesn't suffer from powerline noise). I have a Z-Wave lock that wouldn't communicate with the ISY when the door was closed. The lock was OK with the door open, only about 2-1/2 ft closer. The solution was to use an Aeon Gen5 Siren as a repeater. That made communication rock solid and improved communication to all my other Z-Wave devices. BTW, an Aeon repeater did not help at all
danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Author Posted September 22, 2015 Wow! This seems like exactly what I'm seeing too. So the range of the zwave antenna is so poor you had to buy a repeater? Seems.. Um...well... terrible. Is there even an antenna inside the ISY? I don't really want to tear this thing apart...I would think since it's brand new it would work. I'm going to contact support tomorrow. I just can't believe this is working as intended.
stusviews Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Yes, there is an internal antenna. I did try a high gain external antenna with similar poor results. But, that's not unusual for an RF only device, depending on the structure of the building and the location of objects within the structure such as refrigerators, microwaves, etc. Such objects don't even need to be between to ISY and the Z-Wave devices. RF waves are reflected and bounce between objects. Such reflections can hinder or even enhance the wave. Sometimes walking between devices can affect communication. If that were not the case, then there wouldn't even be a need for Z-Wave or even Insteon repeaters.
danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Author Posted September 22, 2015 Yeah I understand what you are saying about the rf. I'll try some experimenting with turning off a bunch of electronics that could be talking in the 900mhz band. Including the other zwave device in the house that works well much much further away non line of sight.
method115 Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 This is one thing I'm worried about is that my zwave devices wont work because of poor range. I've heard this complaint from a lot of zwave users while researching what to use. I've also heard the Siren thing helps increase the range it's a zwave plus device so that might be why.
Michel Kohanim Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Hello everyone, Just last week we installed 7 Z-Wave Honeywell thermostats in a 4000 sq. feet factory. Although we added 3 range extenders for good measure, everything worked fine without. The trick is to include devices close to ISY (within 100 ft. line of sight), have one be within 100ft and then move the rest to their destination location and do a Heal Network (does wonders!) after each. With kind regards, Michel
danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Author Posted September 22, 2015 This is one thing I'm worried about is that my zwave devices wont work because of poor range. I've heard this complaint from a lot of zwave users while researching what to use. I've also heard the Siren thing helps increase the range it's a zwave plus device so that might be why.Thing is that I haven't heard anything different from insteon except that rf powerline issues can also kill rf over the air.I actually was concerned about range and asked here about a zwave plus dongle, but was told that wasn't a problem with the existing dongle. See here: forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15235-zwave-plus/#entry129494
danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Author Posted September 22, 2015 Hello everyone, Just last week we installed 7 Z-Wave Honeywell thermostats in a 4000 sq. feet factory. Although we added 3 range extenders for good measure, everything worked fine without. The trick is to include devices close to ISY (within 100 ft. line of sight), have one be within 100ft and then move the rest to their destination location and do a Heal Network (does wonders!) after each. With kind regards, Michel Okay well I am six feet away LOS and when I move it to 7 feet and inside a TV stand that has a glass front and huge openings in the back it totally loses communication. What am I doing wrong here?
danbutter Posted September 22, 2015 Author Posted September 22, 2015 What's an, "rf powerline issue?"What I've seen called a signal sucker like a UPS or power filtering surge suppressor and the like.When I first started with insteon I tried to put the hub in my network closet and it wouldn't work at all even though I wasn't plugging it directly into my UPS it was the same outlet. I had to move the hub across the house before I could get it to work.
Michel Kohanim Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Hi danbutter, How many Z-Wave devices do you have and how many are outside the TV Stand? With kind regards, Michel
stusviews Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 You're not doing anything wrong. Low power RF is like that. A few feet left, right, forward or back can affect performance. My lock was less than 20' from the ISY and couldn't reach it. A repeater 5' from the lock didn't help at all. The Gen5 siren in the same location solved all Z-Wave communication problems, even to devices more distant.
stusviews Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 What I've seen called a signal sucker like a UPS or power filtering surge suppressor and the like. When I first started with insteon I tried to put the hub in my network closet and it wouldn't work at all even though I wasn't plugging it directly into my UPS it was the same outlet. I had to move the hub across the house before I could get it to work. A UPS or surge suppressor does not use RF at all, only the powerline.
MWareman Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Not said (yet), for a reliable zwave installation you must have more than 2 wired devices! It's a mesh network for the main reason of overcoming the intrinsic issues with ultra low power rf signaling. The mesh gives multiple signalling paths to overcome interference. If you are trying to link the ISY to the Stat and those are your only two devices on that network - then you'll almost certainly need to add more devices to the network. Personally, I had a ton of zwave issues until I got up to 8 or so devices - and got rid of the Aeon repeaters (my locks did not work well - I replaced them with Sirens). All rock solid now.
danbutter Posted September 23, 2015 Author Posted September 23, 2015 Hi danbutter, How many Z-Wave devices do you have and how many are outside the TV Stand? With kind regards, Michel 3. 2 kwikset locks which are still on the old controller and the new thermostat.I'm aware of the mesh thing, but still thought 7 feet should be OK.
danbutter Posted September 23, 2015 Author Posted September 23, 2015 A UPS or surge suppressor does not use RF at all, only the powerline.Well that's what I thought when I first started with insteon. That even if the powerline comms didn't work that the rf would be able to, but was then told that the noise can overcome both.At any rate I've been successful in getting the insteon to work reliably.
danbutter Posted September 23, 2015 Author Posted September 23, 2015 Not said (yet), for a reliable zwave installation you must have more than 2 wired devices! It's a mesh network for the main reason of overcoming the intrinsic issues with ultra low power rf signaling. The mesh gives multiple signalling paths to overcome interference. If you are trying to link the ISY to the Stat and those are your only two devices on that network - then you'll almost certainly need to add more devices to the network. Personally, I had a ton of zwave issues until I got up to 8 or so devices - and got rid of the Aeon repeaters (my locks did not work well - I replaced them with Sirens). All rock solid now. OK well where would I put the siren if I were so inclined to spend $50 on one? There is no space between the ISY and thermostat for me to put it! It just doesn't make sense being this close that it would need the mesh and an alternative route. The signal from the ISY would have to go further than what it does now and then back to the thermostat.
stusviews Posted September 23, 2015 Posted September 23, 2015 The plug-in Gen5 Siren can be placed nearly anywhere, even further away from the ISY as long as it can be reached by the thermostat. The siren repeat function is that much more powerful than the signal from the thermostat.
danbutter Posted September 23, 2015 Author Posted September 23, 2015 The plug-in Gen5 Siren can be placed nearly anywhere, even further away from the ISY as long as it can be reached by the thermostat. The siren repeat function is that much more powerful than the signal from the thermostat. Yes it must be. I guess my issue is having to spend more money on something to make the ISY perform as intended. Michael said in this thread 100 ft LOS. I'm 90+ feet better than that. I've been sitting here with a spectrum analyzer scanning from about 900 to 925 Mhz watching traffic in my house and periodically changing things on the thermostat to watch the traffic. 908.5 ish is the zwave and signal looks good. I'm much further from the thermostat than ISY is too. I'm going to move the ISY further away and see if that works. Might mess up my insteon, but we'll see.
stusviews Posted September 23, 2015 Posted September 23, 2015 The ISY functions as intended, it's Z-Wave that's the problem.
danbutter Posted September 23, 2015 Author Posted September 23, 2015 The ISY functions as intended, it's Z-Wave that's the problem.the ISY's zwave dongle or antenna maybe. But like I said I've got another controller (older zwave chip too) and that works perfect from much much further away behind walls and in a cabinet with no repeaters. Didn't have time tonight, but we'll see what happens when I move the ISY.
MWareman Posted September 23, 2015 Posted September 23, 2015 The ISY functions as intended, it's Z-Wave that's the problem.This. For zwave to function as intended, you need a mesh. Valid meshes consist of at least 3 devices with the repeater and beam forming ability. Note that not all devices support security when repeating (locks and gate controllers need security), and not all support beam forming (required to make contact with battery powered devices). The manual for the devices should tell you what the capabilities are.
MWareman Posted September 23, 2015 Posted September 23, 2015 Also, you haven't mentioned details about the thermostat. Some are battery powered. Is yours? Or have you powered it from either a 24vac transformer or the HVAC 'C' wire? This makes a difference to the zwave capability of the device.
MWareman Posted September 23, 2015 Posted September 23, 2015 I've got another controller (older zwave chip too) and that works perfect from much much further away behind walls and in a cabinet with no repeaters. With this other controller - do you have additional zwave devices that are forming a more complete mesh?
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