upstatemike Posted December 28, 2008 Author Posted December 28, 2008 You are correct. I went to i1 and restored the switch at the top of the basement stairs and it did not resolve anything. Hello upstatemike, You could go to i1 mode only, do a restore on those devices that have comm problems, and then do your test. Although I agree with you that not all switches could be defective, but going to our service calls, forums, and what I hear I do think that you will experience the same exact issues as you are experiencing now (perhaps not now but in a few days). Please do keep me posted. With kind regards, Michel I tested some additional switches in the basement today and I am not getting reports of local activation from any of them. There are just too many to assume the switches are failing. Since the links now appear to be visible in the PLM and ISY, I am not sure what the best next step would be: I could switch to I1 Only mode but I think my KeypadLinc relay might be using some I2 commands? I could stay in Automatic mode and try to have the problem devices re-establish the best communication method but I don't know how to force this. Do I do a query? A restore? Remove and re-add the problem device? I could go back to the last version that worked with these switches... Probably 2.6 (I know 2.8 does not work). Anybody know what the best course of action might be?
Michel Kohanim Posted December 28, 2008 Posted December 28, 2008 Hello upstatemike, Please do revert back to automatic, try and get two/three replacement units, and let me know. If you run into any problems with SH, please have them contact me. They have been extremely helpful in resolving our issues. With kind regards, Michel You are correct. I went to i1 and restored the switch at the top of the basement stairs and it did not resolve anything. Hello upstatemike, You could go to i1 mode only, do a restore on those devices that have comm problems, and then do your test. Although I agree with you that not all switches could be defective, but going to our service calls, forums, and what I hear I do think that you will experience the same exact issues as you are experiencing now (perhaps not now but in a few days). Please do keep me posted. With kind regards, Michel I tested some additional switches in the basement today and I am not getting reports of local activation from any of them. There are just too many to assume the switches are failing. Since the links now appear to be visible in the PLM and ISY, I am not sure what the best next step would be: I could switch to I1 Only mode but I think my KeypadLinc relay might be using some I2 commands? I could stay in Automatic mode and try to have the problem devices re-establish the best communication method but I don't know how to force this. Do I do a query? A restore? Remove and re-add the problem device? I could go back to the last version that worked with these switches... Probably 2.6 (I know 2.8 does not work). Anybody know what the best course of action might be?
upstatemike Posted December 28, 2008 Author Posted December 28, 2008 Before contacting Smarthome I decided to take the test switch which is now working since I replaced the PLM and use it to replace the switch at the top of the basement stairs to at least reagain function in that one vital location. The replace process went fine and all of the local links were transferred to the new switch but unfortunately it does not report local operation once I installed it into the new location. I tried restoring the PLM once again to see if that would help but it did not. I next installed the tho old basement stair switch back into the ISY as my test switch to confirm that the issue was really related to the location and not the switch itself. Unfortunately that switch does not report local operation either even though it is now in the test location where the other one was working. So I guess I have some combination of many many bad switches plus some sort of special line noise or loading problem that only affects the reporting of local paddle presses to the PLM without hurting the links between switches, the ability to query a switch or rebuild or replace it. Also, direct commands from the ISY gui get through and operate the switches just fine. I'm not sure how to track down the source of such a selective line problem. I feel like I am going in circles with this stuff and I think I need to step back and review my whole strategy before investing any more time into this.
ulrick65 Posted December 28, 2008 Posted December 28, 2008 Have you tried removing the switch from ISY completely, doing a factory reset and then relinking it? Probably a shot in the dark, but unless you have a ton of scenes for this switch, it should be easy enough to try. Before contacting Smarthome I decided to take the test switch which is now working since I replaced the PLM and use it to replace the switch at the top of the basement stairs to at least reagain function in that one vital location. The replace process went fine and all of the local links were transferred to the new switch but unfortunately it does not report local operation once I installed it into the new location. I tried restoring the PLM once again to see if that would help but it did not. I next installed the tho old basement stair switch back into the ISY as my test switch to confirm that the issue was really related to the location and not the switch itself. Unfortunately that switch does not report local operation either even though it is now in the test location where the other one was working. So I guess I have some combination of many many bad switches plus some sort of special line noise or loading problem that only affects the reporting of local paddle presses to the PLM without hurting the links between switches, the ability to query a switch or rebuild or replace it. Also, direct commands from the ISY gui get through and operate the switches just fine. I'm not sure how to track down the source of such a selective line problem. I feel like I am going in circles with this stuff and I think I need to step back and review my whole strategy before investing any more time into this.
Sub-Routine Posted December 28, 2008 Posted December 28, 2008 So I guess I have some combination of many many bad switches plus some sort of special line noise or loading problem that only affects the reporting of local paddle presses to the PLM without hurting the links between switches, the ability to query a switch or rebuild or replace it. Also, direct commands from the ISY gui get through and operate the switches just fine. I'm not sure how to track down the source of such a selective line problem. IIRC, it was digger who finally found he had SwitchLincs that were broadcasting noise. Perhaps you have one of these on the circuit with the problem. Pulling the set buttons on your switches will disable them. If things begin to work reactivate them one at a time. Just a thought. Rand
upstatemike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 Update- I got a brand new switch in today. I connected it to my test cord and plugged it directly into the PLM. I added it to the ISY and and confirmed that I can query the switch to discover the correct status. It does NOT however report status when operated locally. The switch says Ver. 4.1 on the sticker and the ISY reports it as "SwitchLinc relay V .35 At this point I do NOT think this issue is due to problems with my switches. Nor is noise a problem based on the fact that none of my problem switches work when plugged directly into the PLM. Having replaced the PLM last month I am concerned the problem is most likely within the ISY database itself since that is the one common element that gets carried forward each time I restore a device, replace a PLM, etc. Is it possible for the ISY database to get scrambled up somehow? Hello upstatemike, Please do revert back to automatic, try and get two/three replacement units, and let me know. If you run into any problems with SH, please have them contact me. They have been extremely helpful in resolving our issues. With kind regards, Michel You are correct. I went to i1 and restored the switch at the top of the basement stairs and it did not resolve anything. Hello upstatemike, You could go to i1 mode only, do a restore on those devices that have comm problems, and then do your test. Although I agree with you that not all switches could be defective, but going to our service calls, forums, and what I hear I do think that you will experience the same exact issues as you are experiencing now (perhaps not now but in a few days). Please do keep me posted. With kind regards, Michel I tested some additional switches in the basement today and I am not getting reports of local activation from any of them. There are just too many to assume the switches are failing. Since the links now appear to be visible in the PLM and ISY, I am not sure what the best next step would be: I could switch to I1 Only mode but I think my KeypadLinc relay might be using some I2 commands? I could stay in Automatic mode and try to have the problem devices re-establish the best communication method but I don't know how to force this. Do I do a query? A restore? Remove and re-add the problem device? I could go back to the last version that worked with these switches... Probably 2.6 (I know 2.8 does not work). Anybody know what the best course of action might be?
IndyMike Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Upstate, After pouring back over this and your previous post, I believe your difficulties are due to the fact that you are tackling three (maybe more) problems at the same time. Problem 1: Missing Links in your PLM 1) Your PLM had developed some missing links to your switches. From what I can see, the PLM must have a A2 01 in order for it to "hear" transmissions from the Switch. 2) Your devices are restored for the PLM (observation on my part). Since the PLM is missing the A2 01 entry, a simple restore doesn't work. 3) In the above case, the A2 01 link was intact in the ISY. You recovered this information when you restored the PLM and your switches began transmitting back to the PLM. Problem 2: Missing Links in your ISY 1) If the A2 01 doesn't exist in the ISY, you're out of luck with that Switch. Device and PLM restores will not work because the info doesn't exist. This is the problem I encountered yesterday. It is also the problem I believe you are having with your "Stair Switch". In any case I finally got the links to display and there is a link that reads: A2 00 0C.A5.28 FF 1F 00 where 0C.A5.28 is the address of my new PLM. (This should have been a E2 00 with a second entry for A2 01 following) I just rechecked the PLM link table and this time found the switch listed. I don't think I would have missed it the first time so I am confused on why I am getting a different result now. The PLM links I have for this switch are: E2 00 A1 01 (Should be A2 01) E2 34 E2 39 2) Recovery requires you to A)Delete the switch from the ISY.B)Factory reset the switch (note that this procedure is different for relay units).C)Re-link the switch to the PLM/ISY At this point your devices should contain the following links: Switch Links E2 00 (listen to PLM group 00)A2 01 (talk to PLM group 01)00 00 000000 PLM Entries: A2 00 (control switch group 00)E2 01 (listen to switch group 00) ISY Entries (Same as PLM): A2 00 E2 01 Problem3: I2 protocol Your recent problem switches that don't communicate local presses. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I don't have any of these recent animals. To be honest, I probably couldn't help if I did have these units. Fortunately we have the ISY team on the job (I think we're in pretty good hands here). The bottom line here is that you have a mixture of "old" problems with old firmware switches (I1) mixed in with new I2 problems. Separate the variables. Fixing the old I1 problems requires a restore, PLM restore, or device delete/re-add (not a restore). IM
upstatemike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 I have already done a "PLM replace hardware and restore" so that variable should be resolved. I have done "switch delete/factory reset/add back to ISY" and eliminated that variable. (many many many times) I have done "replace switch with new product" and eliminated the variable of faulty switch hardware. I have done "plug directly into PLM" to eleminate the variable of noise. Based on your analysis, what are you suggesting is my next step? I guess I can take this new switch and go through the link verification process again but other than that...?
Sub-Routine Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 There have been numerous reports that v.35 switches are buggy, if you tap On twice does it then report Status? I would suggest waiting for a fix. Michel says Smarthome is aware of the problems and are working to fix them. It doesn't make any sense to install them when they don't work on top of the PLM. Rand
upstatemike Posted January 10, 2009 Author Posted January 10, 2009 There have been numerous reports that v.35 switches are buggy, if you tap On twice does it then report Status? I would suggest waiting for a fix. Michel says Smarthome is aware of the problems and are working to fix them. It doesn't make any sense to install them when they don't work on top of the PLM. Rand I will test the double tap on the new switch later tonight. I can wait for a fix on the new switch but I have too many old switches not reporting to let that go unresolved. I will go back to the one at the top of the basement stairs and revew the links once again. If I can get that fixed then I will be in a much better place.
IndyMike Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Upstate, I'm focusing on your "old" switches that don't report. From your description, your stair unit is one of these. Please check your switch, PLM and ISY for the E2/A2 codes that I posted previously. Based on the lack of codes in the various locations, perform a device restore, PLM restore, or device delete/add back. Note that if your Switch is a relay unit, it has a different factory reset procedure than dimmer units. Current relay units are reset as follows: 3. Press and hold the Paddle Top for 10 seconds -- then release. 4. Tap the SET Button all the way in -- then release. 5. Push the SET Button all the way in and hold for 10 seconds -- then release. 6. A few seconds after you let up on the SET button, SwitchLinc Relay will turn the light it is wired to fully ON, indicating that the factory reset is complete. SwitchLinc Relay is now reset to all the default settings and ready for fresh programming and use. This is a bit different from what I remember - your older units may be different (hopefully another member can confirm if there is an old method). Another handy feature the ISY "link read" window provides is the ability to Save (to file) and Load (from file) the displayed link table. I used this feature to save my device/plm/isy links before and after correcting my link problem. Afterward I was able to load the link tables from file to compare what had changed. I have already done a "PLM replace hardware and restore" so that variable should be resolved. I have done "switch delete/factory reset/add back to ISY" and eliminated that variable. (many many many times) I have done "replace switch with new product" and eliminated the variable of faulty switch hardware. I have done "plug directly into PLM" to eleminate the variable of noise. Based on your analysis, what are you suggesting is my next step? I guess I can take this new switch and go through the link verification process again but other than that...?
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 OK this is definitely part of the reason this is so frustrating. I ran the reports and the PLM link table did not show the basement stair switch at all and was also missing a lot of other switches as well. Total link count was 658. I closed the ISY console and cleared the Java cache and then opened the ISY console and ran the PLM link table report again. This time the missing switches were there and the total link count was 773. Here are the results: PLM Link Table: E2 00 E2 34 E2 39 E2 6C A2 01 ISY Link Table: A2 00 A2 34 A2 39 A2 6C E2 01 Switch Link Table: A2 00 A2 34 A2 39 A2 6C E2 01 Even though the links are there, local changes are not seen by the ISY. So next I deleted the switch from the ISY. I did a factory reset on the switch and then reinstalled it. It still does not report local status changes.
IndyMike Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 In a word - Wow. Maybe we can chalk that up as problem 4. From what I can tell from your post, all of the correct links are in your Switch/PLM/ISY for proper local switch operation. Your links are in a different order from those in my devices (not sure if that matters). Does the ISY register local switch operation now? I tried checking my PLM links 3 times as you described (clearing cache in between). My PLM registers a consistent 287 links each time. Edit: never mind the following. I checked several of my other switches and link order does not appear to be important. Could you check some other Functioning switches for the following order? It seems that the following links should be in the first two addresses since they would be created during the initial linking of the switch. E2 00 (listen to PLM group 00) A2 01 (talk to PLM group 01) 00 00 000000
Michel Kohanim Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 upstatemike, Apologies for the inconvenience. I will have to check into the PLM links table issue as it seems to be a bug. Indeed, there can only be 4 issues contributing to this problem: 1. Noise ... not ruled out yet 2. i2 .... which is ruled out (because you are using old switches) 3. PLM ... not ruled out yet 4. ISY ... not ruled out yet So, may I humbly suggest actually replacing the PLM? We do have a spare one that I can send you for your testing purposes. With kind regards, Michel OK this is definitely part of the reason this is so frustrating. I ran the reports and the PLM link table did not show the basement stair switch at all and was also missing a lot of other switches as well. Total link count was 658. I closed the ISY console and cleared the Java cache and then opened the ISY console and ran the PLM link table report again. This time the missing switches were there and the total link count was 773. Here are the results: PLM Link Table: E2 00 E2 34 E2 39 E2 6C A2 01 ISY Link Table: A2 00 A2 34 A2 39 A2 6C E2 01 Switch Link Table: A2 00 A2 34 A2 39 A2 6C E2 01 Even though the links are there, local changes are not seen by the ISY. So next I deleted the switch from the ISY. I did a factory reset on the switch and then reinstalled it. It still does not report local status changes.
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 Just a reminder that I have ruled out noise by plugging switches with this problem directly into the PLM with no change resulting. I also already replaced the PLM last month but I have ordered another one anyway which will be here by next weekend. I'll see what happens with that. upstatemike, Apologies for the inconvenience. I will have to check into the PLM links table issue as it seems to be a bug. Indeed, there can only be 4 issues contributing to this problem: 1. Noise ... not ruled out yet 2. i2 .... which is ruled out (because you are using old switches) 3. PLM ... not ruled out yet 4. ISY ... not ruled out yet So, may I humbly suggest actually replacing the PLM? We do have a spare one that I can send you for your testing purposes. With kind regards, Michel
Michel Kohanim Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 upstatemike, Thanks so very much for the update. Please do keep me posted. This has been going on long enough and we have to get to the bottom of it as soon as possible. One question that I keep wanting to ask and I keep forgetting: Did ANYTHING change in your environment before you started experiencing these issues? Anything at all? Or, was this a problem from the get go? With kind regards, Michel Just a reminder that I have ruled out noise by plugging switches with this problem directly into the PLM with no change resulting. I also already replaced the PLM last month but I have ordered another one anyway which will be here by next weekend. I'll see what happens with that. upstatemike, Apologies for the inconvenience. I will have to check into the PLM links table issue as it seems to be a bug. Indeed, there can only be 4 issues contributing to this problem: 1. Noise ... not ruled out yet 2. i2 .... which is ruled out (because you are using old switches) 3. PLM ... not ruled out yet 4. ISY ... not ruled out yet So, may I humbly suggest actually replacing the PLM? We do have a spare one that I can send you for your testing purposes. With kind regards, Michel
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 No I did not always have this problem. The basement lights "Off" routines were the first programs I created on the ISY and they worked raliably for many months and at least up to September. I am not certain exactly when those problems started because at first when I noticed them being left on I assumed it was just an intermittent communication problem of some sort. Then I tried adding some new programs upstairs and ran into reporting problems there just after Thanksgiving. I eventually fixed those by swapping the PLM and thought that everything was Ok again. Later in December I noticed the basement lights were still staying on so I did some troubleshootong and discovered it was not intermittent but rather a hard failure. No lights in the basement were reporting status. After that I added several test switches from my remaining spares to move around to different locations as a test for noise issues. The spares would not report local operation even when plugged directly into the PLM. I tested many of the other switches in my system and found the number that did not report to be very high (over a dozen) which made individual switch failure statistically unlikely. Many of the switches that were not reporting used to work reliably to trigger programs. No major changes to electrical loads in the house. Many changes in ISY devices (renaming, reconfiguring scenes, etc) plus maybe 6 or 7 new devices added during the Fall months. upstatemike, Thanks so very much for the update. Please do keep me posted. This has been going on long enough and we have to get to the bottom of it as soon as possible. One question that I keep wanting to ask and I keep forgetting: Did ANYTHING change in your environment before you started experiencing these issues? Anything at all? Or, was this a problem from the get go? With kind regards, Michel Just a reminder that I have ruled out noise by plugging switches with this problem directly into the PLM with no change resulting. I also already replaced the PLM last month but I have ordered another one anyway which will be here by next weekend. I'll see what happens with that. upstatemike, Apologies for the inconvenience. I will have to check into the PLM links table issue as it seems to be a bug. Indeed, there can only be 4 issues contributing to this problem: 1. Noise ... not ruled out yet 2. i2 .... which is ruled out (because you are using old switches) 3. PLM ... not ruled out yet 4. ISY ... not ruled out yet So, may I humbly suggest actually replacing the PLM? We do have a spare one that I can send you for your testing purposes. With kind regards, Michel
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 I just had another thought. Most of the switches that are giving me problems are towards the end of the PLM link table. The switches in the basement worked for a long time and were some of the first switches installed so the links for them were near the beginning of the PLM link table. When I replaced my PLM to resolve the problem with my other switches, the links were sorted before being written to the new PLM and the basement links ended up close to the end because their addresses mostly start with 9. Also any new switches I try to add for testing get linked at the very end of the PLM link table. I wonder if there is a point in the PLM link table above which local control links do not work correctly? Maybe when I "fixed" those other switches by installing a new PLM, the real fix was that their links got sorted to a lower point in the PLM link table? And if the basement links moved up past the boundry point they would have stopped working for no obvious reason.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 upstatemike, Wow, this is quite interesting and I cannot really discount it mostly because you have one of the larger installations. Can you do me a huge favor? 1. Factory reset your old PLM 2. Reboot your ISY with the old PLM 3. Add one of the troubled switches 4. Let me know if it reports the status If it does, then your theory is correct and needs further investigation. Also, when you get the newest PLM, please perform the same test as above before restoring it. Thanks so very much, With kind regards, Michel I just had another thought. Most of the switches that are giving me problems are towards the end of the PLM link table. The switches in the basement worked for a long time and were some of the first switches installed so the links for them were near the beginning of the PLM link table. When I replaced my PLM to resolve the problem with my other switches, the links were sorted before being written to the new PLM and the basement links ended up close to the end because their addresses mostly start with 9. Also any new switches I try to add for testing get linked at the very end of the PLM link table. I wonder if there is a point in the PLM link table above which local control links do not work correctly? Maybe when I "fixed" those other switches by installing a new PLM, the real fix was that their links got sorted to a lower point in the PLM link table? And if the basement links moved up past the boundry point they would have stopped working for no obvious reason.
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 Unfortunately I have already sent the old PLM back to SmartHome. I will have to wait until next Saturday when I have the new one before I can do any more testing. If I were to identify a switch that is working OK and then replace it with the new switch that does not work, would that move the new switch's links into the old switch's position in the PLM link table? Or would it leave it where it is and change some pointers? How about if I delete a switch near the beginning of the table and then add a new switch. Will the new switch be added in the slot vacated by the one I just deleted? upstatemike, Wow, this is quite interesting and I cannot really discount it mostly because you have one of the larger installations. Can you do me a huge favor? 1. Factory reset your old PLM 2. Reboot your ISY with the old PLM 3. Add one of the troubled switches 4. Let me know if it reports the status If it does, then your theory is correct and needs further investigation. Also, when you get the newest PLM, please perform the same test as above before restoring it. Thanks so very much, With kind regards, Michel
IndyMike Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Upstate, I was thinking along the same lines. I would think you would have a better chance of maintaining the Link position in the PLM if you used the Replace option. If I were to identify a switch that is working OK and then replace it with the new switch that does not work, would that move the new switch's links into the old switch's position in the PLM link table? Or would it leave it where it is and change some pointers? How about if I delete a switch near the beginning of the table and then add a new switch. Will the new switch be added in the slot vacated by the one I just deleted?
upstatemike Posted January 11, 2009 Author Posted January 11, 2009 I tried to do a walk through to see if I could confirm the theory. I sorted my insteon devices by address so it matched the PLM link table and then started testing which switchtches report and which don't to see if I could identify a clear boundry point in the PLM link table. Unfortunately I am running into paddle problems in clusters of switches that are seldom operated manually (I just found that 3 out of 4 in a particular 4-gang box have a paddle issue... I can't even get them to operate if I tap a bunch of times in a row!) so this test is not really working out. My new plan is to install a replacement PLM next Saturday and see what that does for the reporting problem. I will also do a full walk-through on Saterday to see how many switches now have to be replaced for paddle issues. (I really thought I was past that!) If the PLM does not help my reporting situation and/or the number of physical switch failures turns out to be high, then I will need to pull back and re-evaluate where I'm going with this whole thing.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Hello upstatemike, Yes, I know precisely what you mean. Please do keep us posted. With kind regards, Michel I tried to do a walk through to see if I could confirm the theory. I sorted my insteon devices by address so it matched the PLM link table and then started testing which switchtches report and which don't to see if I could identify a clear boundry point in the PLM link table. Unfortunately I am running into paddle problems in clusters of switches that are seldom operated manually (I just found that 3 out of 4 in a particular 4-gang box have a paddle issue... I can't even get them to operate if I tap a bunch of times in a row!) so this test is not really working out. My new plan is to install a replacement PLM next Saturday and see what that does for the reporting problem. I will also do a full walk-through on Saterday to see how many switches now have to be replaced for paddle issues. (I really thought I was past that!) If the PLM does not help my reporting situation and/or the number of physical switch failures turns out to be high, then I will need to pull back and re-evaluate where I'm going with this whole thing.
upstatemike Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 My new PLM came sooner than expected. It is a rev. 2.9 and ISY reports the firmware as v72. I did a replace modem and then tested the basement stair switch. It still does not report local operation. I then tested the brand new switch that I have plugged directly into the PLM. It reported the first paddle press and then nothing after that. I guess it is not a PLM problem.
Michel Kohanim Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 upstatemike, I thought we were going to test this BEFORE restoring the PLM. The main reason was to see whether or not the number of links in the PLM have any impact. Would you be kind enough to factory reset your OLD PLM, reboot your ISY with the old plm, link the switch into it, and let me know? With kind regards, Michel My new PLM came sooner than expected. It is a rev. 2.9 and ISY reports the firmware as v72. I did a replace modem and then tested the basement stair switch. It still does not report local operation. I then tested the brand new switch that I have plugged directly into the PLM. It reported the first paddle press and then nothing after that. I guess it is not a PLM problem.
Recommended Posts