A Better Way to Get Analog and Digital Inputs to ISY

[Flex]

While the WebControl WC8 board works to provide a way to get analog and digital inputs to ISY and works well enough at the hobbyist level, it is just not dependable like the ISY is. I guess you can't expect perfection for an under $50 board that does what it can do.

I currently am using the WebControl WC8 to bring outdoor humidity and temperature, and pump water pressure to the ISY, these are 4-20ma analog signals. In addition the WC8's one wire interface is used for two temperatures and one humidity. The one wire interface is its weakest point.

I got it working reasonably well, that is, it is useful for reporting purposes. But not reliable enough to base control decisions from it. In the one month the WC8 has been running at my summer cabin, it has rebooted over 50 times (completely random, goes for days and then reboots multiple times in one day then is fine for several more days) and locked up at least twice. When it locks I have to have the ISY cycle power to it. By the way, my network there consists of just the ISY994 and the WC8 board, besides the router modem.

 

The other options are the Insteon based IO-Lincs and the like. I found the reliability (two IO-lincs failed, one in warranty the other out of warranty) of these to be poor at best. For outputs the ISY network module works very well and can talk to any number of devices including ControlbyWeb modules which themselves are very reliable. The Smartenit EZIO modules also seem to have their issues based on what people have said on the forums and in reviews. I have looked at the Autelis products but it looks like they are not not capable of bringing an analog input to the ISY (via network connection of course). Now for One Wire inputs Autelis seems to be far more reliable based on the comments of others on this and other forums. And it may be worth it to remove the one wire sensors from the WC8 and use them with an Autelis bridge.

The reasons for my request
I know Modbus has been brought up before and has been determined that Modbus is beyond the scope of the purpose for the ISY, nor are the number of requests enough to be considered for implementation. However, Modbus capability would open up the ControlbyWeb family of products to be used for inputs to the ISY. Again for outputs, rest commands to Controlbyweb products works very well, at least for the two I have.

 

I have inquired of ControlbyWeb if they in the future were looking at providing a way to write to an ISY variable via rest. They said no.
However, I have had success with having the ISY poll the ControlbyWeb (x310 to be specific) and read an input as a response to the admin console.
But, this is just text and there is no way I can find to parse that text and populate an ISY variable with it. That is, without having a computer running full time.
To my knowledge, there are only two devices (besides a web browser running on a computer, this includes any computer including the likes of the Pi) that can bring an input in and write it to an ISY variable via a network connection. That is the Webcontrol WC8 and the Autelis bridge. And only the WC8 can bring an analog signal to the ISY.
I would like to know if there are others that run on low power and are not battery operated. The CAI WC8 is a great start and if it worked well would be the best solution I know of for this type of application.


The Request
To me providing an inbound network module would be worth the cost of the current outbound network module.
I would like an inbound network module, or added functionality to the current network module, that could poll a device, (just like the current network module does) parse the text and place a chosen portion of that text into a variable. Or provide Modbus capability.

[larryllix]

Insteon really lacks an analogue input module...badly!

 

This is the module that UDI should create...a bullet proof analogue 0-10v analogue input module with a 10v aux output. You have created a 120vac input capable box, strip it down and put it out as a 0-10 or 0-5vdc analogue reader/Insteon sender.

 

Forget the PLM, SmartHope has beaten you to the punch, stealing your idea, while they dangle the carrot teasing you, and demonstrate who's boss. Now hooked up with the big Apple they can kick the little guys around, especially when you compete with their new Apple partner image. They don't want to break it off with the old girlfriend until they know the new one is a better dancer.

[io_guy]

The Request

To me providing an inbound network module would be worth the cost of the current outbound network module.

I would like an inbound network module, or added functionality to the current network module, that could poll a device, (just like the current network module does) parse the text and place a chosen portion of that text into a variable. Or provide Modbus capability.

 

Search the forum for DevLink, It does exactly what you're asking.

 

I use a Beckhoff BK9000 industrial bus coupler to bring signals into the ISY.

http://www.beckhoff....9000_bk9050.htm

I have a custom app that pulls the data via ModbusTCP and sends it to the ISY.  Once I get ISY V5 a little more stable I can look at making the code more generic to support any Modbus device.

 

I sent a note to the ControlByWeb guys a while back asking for a development sample to write a program for, no reply.

[Flex]

I looked at the Beckhoff BK9000. It looks very expensive, much more than a fully equipped ISY. I found their site somewhat difficult to find out what I wanted to know about it. This seems to be typical of industrial control systems vendors such as the Rockwells, ABBs, and etc. They want seem to want their websites to generate phone conversations with them.

 

This said, I did briefly checkout DevLink. It looks like to use this you need a computer that can run the application and serve as the link between the input device and the ISY. If I go down this path I would need to do a lot of learning as this would be completely new to me. For instance, can it run on a Pi?

 

I really don't want to leave a computer (which I don't have there) running all winter long at my summer cabin mostly unattended. Since I don't normally visit much in the winter keeping a windows system updated and all would be problematic for me.

 

If this capability could be built into the ISY, I would only need the ISY and whatever I chose for the analog input device (ControlbyWeb something) running at that location.

 

For my monitoring sump pit here I am using the ControlByWeb x310. I trust it much more than the WC8. And so I live with the ControlByWeb app and Mobilinc for the ISY. And I certainly trust both of them more than anything Insteon has for I/O.

[larryllix]

I'm new to this universal devices. But as a note to this topic, I will second that Modbus would open a wide range of controls. Just the read and write register(s) would solve and open up a lot of devices. I've been in Industrial and controls engineering for 20 years and Modbus devices are all over. I still see new devices released. I read back thru topics and saw one from 2010 saying you thought Modbus would be obsolete within the next couple of years. I've seen many protocols come and go since I've been using Modbus. I'm not saying it will be here forever but with a couple com messages you could open a lot of doors. Just my 02 cent.

What would be the hardware layer for the Modbus protocol?

 

Over Ethernet? ISY doesn't have any other hardware interfaces to input Modbus to.

 

Modbus could open a lot of doors for instrumentation but there are many protocols taking over from Modbus. DNP 3.0 and probably too many other ones that have become very popular, with more serious equipment, all field of endeavour culture dependent. I dealt with a lot of Electrical Grid P&C and Modbus was only a bad rumour that some of the early jumpers got stuck with.

 

Modbus may be an excellent level protocol for ISY people, though. The protocol interface should be easy to write. DNP 3.0 wasn't.

 

The Node servers may open this up for instrumentation busses as ISY spreads it's wings into multi box distributed intelligence

[mwester]

I dug into modbus just now to see how one might implement a node server to add that to the ISY.

 

Short answer: it looks to be very practical to do so -- modbus-over-tcp/ip would be easiest (no hardware on the Raspberry Pi required), but libraries exist for the RPI that would make direct connection to the twisted-pair serial network possible as well.

 

Now the problem -- I can't see that this would be practical, given the pricing.  Even the surplus modbus devices on eBay run into the hundreds of dollars...

[larryllix]

any protc

I dug into modbus just now to see how one might implement a node server to add that to the ISY.

 

Short answer: it looks to be very practical to do so -- modbus-over-tcp/ip would be easiest (no hardware on the Raspberry Pi required), but libraries exist for the RPI that would make direct connection to the twisted-pair serial network possible as well.

 

Now the problem -- I can't see that this would be practical, given the pricing.  Even the surplus modbus devices on eBay run into the hundreds of dollars...

Yeah, the big one that will just not go away is still Ethernet and then with TCP/IP why would we want to try to embed Modbus on top of all that.

 

Most of the instrumentation that I ran into with Modbus as an option would need an expensive box to get the Modbus into Ethernet in the first place. but then again I am from  the old school where Modbus was really only for RS485 and that fancy InterWeb stuff was just for the kids to play games or browse porn...

 

We really just need a RPi extension hardware that presents 8-16 analogue input, 8-16 relay outputs, and 8-16 status inputs into the Node server. Then the hobbyists could hook these terminals up to whatever they want.

 

My guess is all the hardware is already out there but just need to be grouped into a project with Node software..

 

hmmmmm... I have a shop full of SCADA I/O boards that fit that description but talk 1200 baud modem.

[sandryseibert]

Nice topic... Express many customer needs.

 

Today I use two CAI WC8 boards because of the limitation of only eight notifications available.. My application uses more the AD rather than 1-wire and outputs, so I had to remove many temperature points till reach the minimum and now I had to add a new WC8 just to serve as a AD converter to my power consumption / generation, service water pressure and air conditioning power consumption.

 

I sent an email to CAI support requesting more notification fields, it doesn't look that hard to do and they reply that they are working on a new firmware that allows more GET commands and if I'm in a hurry I could try WC32 which have 16 notification fields.

 

The WC32 is really cool, but much more expensive, so I prefer to wait those guys to release a new firmware with new features. The WC8 is a really nice and cheap board to send generic data to ISY, the only thing to be noted is that you must well plan the installation away from RF signals because the board capture too much noise, so a faraday cage is the best option to make it more reliable.

 

Regards

Sandry Seibert

[msoileau]

An Arduino with a network shield is capable of sending data to the ISY. I've built a sprinkler controller that does bidirectional communications with the ISY by using the network module to send something to the Arduino and in response, the Arduino uses the REST interface of the ISY to set a variable. The Arduino MEGA that I'm using has 54 digital I/O pins and 16 analog inputs

[Xathros]

There are IO Boards for the RPi that do AD/DA.  See: http://www.robotshop.com/en/raspberry-pi-high-precision-ad-da-expansion-board.html?gclid=CMSx6s2iw8sCFdgGgQodCgoACQ

 

-Xathros

[larryllix01]

There are IO Boards for the RPi that do AD/DA. See: http://www.robotshop.com/en/raspberry-pi-high-precision-ad-da-expansion-board.html?gclid=CMSx6s2iw8sCFdgGgQodCgoACQ

 

-Xathros

We just need somebody to write a node to i/o all these into ISY via a node server and this could become the de facto IDY extension hardware.

 

Maybe a kickstarter program for io_guy...hint...hint.

 

Maybe a group buy?

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[sandryseibert]

An Arduino with a network shield is capable of sending data to the ISY. I've built a sprinkler controller that does bidirectional communications with the ISY by using the network module to send something to the Arduino and in response, the Arduino uses the REST interface of the ISY to set a variable. The Arduino MEGA that I'm using has 54 digital I/O pins and 16 analog inputs

So.. could you share your program? I also have many Arduino here waiting for something useful but I wasn't able to find a program that I can make some small changes and use it.

[Flex]

I too, am interested in your program, although I have yet to purchase any Arduino products.

 

If you look over at my last post on the topic “CAI Web Control loses Temperature Configurations” you will see my issues with using the CAI WC8 board for One Wire inputs. I really believe the WC8 just isn't going to be capable for any more than one, one wire input, (that is without constant reboots)  thus it looks like the Arduino is a method I might like to try. An issue is how to get the USB on to Ethernet so the ISY can see it. I would like a wired connection instead of the WIFI the Arduino shield uses.

 

The other candidate is the Autelis Universal RS232 2-Way Serial Interface for ISY. Otherwise I would just abandon using one wire and convert to analog sensors. Perhaps using WC8's analog and digital I/O or the Arduino. The cost of the Autelis vs Arduino appears to be within thirty dollars of each other, since it takes two Arduino boards vs the one Autelis unit. The Aduino route appears to abandon one wire in favor of more analog and digital I/O. The Autelis appears better for one wire sensors. Of course I know very little about these two product lines. An issue with the Autelis for me is that there isn't much in the way of information about it.

[io_guy]

Flex, if all you want is onewire, check out OWLink and a Pi.

[Flex]

Actually I have a Dwyer RHP-2O11 analog 4 to 20Ma temperature and humidity sensor on the outside of my cabin. This uses two of the three analog inputs, the third is for a water pressure transmitter. I use the WC8 to bring these into the ISY. It is the most reliable I/O of the system except for the ISY and the zwave thermostat. Far better than one wire. The accuracy of the analog is also good and repeatable. However one wire being digital is probably more accurate, but again less reliable, with the WC8 that is. I would happily give up on the one wire if a device other than webcontrols was available that could send data to the ISY and had six analog 4-20 ma inputs. After purchasing three WC8s I am reluctant to purchase a WC32, given my experiences with them.

[larryllix]

They are short of RAM memory and Ethernet has to be spaced out to not interfere with 1wire processing and RAM usage from my take on it.

[mwester]

Actually I have a Dwyer RHP-2O11 analog 4 to 20Ma temperature and humidity sensor on the outside of my cabin. This uses two of the three analog inputs, the third is for a water pressure transmitter. I use the WC8 to bring these into the ISY. It is the most reliable I/O of the system except for the ISY and the zwave thermostat. Far better than one wire. The accuracy of the analog is also good and repeatable. However one wire being digital is probably more accurate, but again less reliable, with the WC8 that is. I would happily give up on the one wire if a device other than webcontrols was available that could send data to the ISY and had six analog 4-20 ma inputs. After purchasing three WC8s I am reluctant to purchase a WC32, given my experiences with them.

So, leave the analog I/O to the existing WC8 unit, and move the one-wire stuff to a Raspberry Pi with a one-wire USB adaptor.  That's probably not only the cheapest solution, but it's also the easiest solution.

 

I've had several different layouts for one-wire support over the past 5 years -- but they've all been on small Linux-based computers (the most recent one being a Raspberry Pi).  Rock-solid, they just work.  Unlike my WC8, which is now in my hobby toybox, having proven itself to be completely unworthy and unable to manage anything that's really important for my HA!

[Grizzy]

An Arduino with a network shield is capable of sending data to the ISY. I've built a sprinkler controller that does bidirectional communications with the ISY by using the network module to send something to the Arduino and in response, the Arduino uses the REST interface of the ISY to set a variable. The Arduino MEGA that I'm using has 54 digital I/O pins and 16 analog inputs

 

Very good. Would you share your program? I too have many Arduino here waiting for something useful to interface with my ISY. Especially my sprinkler system. I would very much appreciate any help you could provide. Thanks

[Xathros]

Flex, if all you want is onewire, check out OWLink and a Pi.

What hardware are you recommending to sit between the Pi and the onewire sensors?  Sheepwalk?

 

-Xathros

[io_guy]

I've been using the sheepwalk for a few years now with zero issues.

[larryllix]

What hardware are you recommending to sit between the Pi and the onewire sensors?  Sheepwalk?

 

-Xathros

Sheepwalk. Used it to try it. Haven't since.

 

Doesn't fit into any Pi boxes.

 

[Xathros]

Sheepwalk. Used it to try it. Haven't since.

 

Doesn't fit into any Pi boxes.

 

SheepWalk.jpg

Wanna sell it?

 

-Xathros

[larryllix]

Nope. Cost too much to get here and you couldn't afford it.

 

Sent from my SGH-I257M using Tapatalk

[Xathros]

I've been using the sheepwalk for a few years now with zero issues.

Thanks.  I'll have to grab one.  Are you planning on integrating OWLink into Nodelink or should I plan on running both?

 

-Xathros

[io_guy]

Right now you need both, I'm dying to move it to NodeLink but currently V5 does not allow you to compare two node values.

So you'd have to move the one-wire value to a variable to compare it to a thermostat temp for example.

Kind of useless.

 

Once V5 can compare nodes I'll move it over.