Inverter Noise?

[zerop]

I am thinking about getting a 12V 4Kw inverter with 120V/240V output and a small battery bank to power all the circuits on my sub-panel during a power outage.

 

The inverter has a built in charger and the 240V AC input to the inverter/charger would come from a breaker on my main panel.  The output of the inverter/charger would go to a manual transfer switch on the sub-panel.

 

I have a concern of the inverter/charger creating noise on my system and then having Insteon communication issues.  I’m not worried about comm issues when the power is out and I’m running everything on the sub-panel on the inverter/batteries as this would be a short period of time and very rare.  If my Insteon system didn’t work during this time, fine.  My concern is the 99.9% of all the other time when the inverter is connected to the main panel in standby or when it is using the utility power from the main panel to charge the batteries.  Could this configuration cause noise in my system?  If so, is there a way to filter it?  I read another post where someone used several XP Pro XPF 20A inline filters in series and parallel to get a 40A filter on each 120V leg of a 240V system (the inverter requires 240V input to charge the batteries).

 

Anyone have any thoughts or input on this?

[Teken]

The questions you really need answers to are is the inverter / charger a pure sine wave unit vs a modified sine wave. Even if it states its a *Pure Sine Wave* inverter lots of the cheaper brands have a much larger variance which is outside of the POCO allowances of +/- 5%.

 

You also need to find out what the T.H.D (Total Harmonic Distortion) this unit will emit when operating in line vs battery.

 

Last but not least if the unit uses power line Ethernet to communicate like the Enphase micro inverters do. Some have invested the money for what seems to be a very cheap and simple *choke* filtering using ferrite magnets.

[jtara92101]

Review the multitude of posts here about "noise makers and signal suckers" and see if you can make some sense of it!

 

My take is that Insteon power-line is flawed technology which they finally have realized since going dual-band. The problem is that one person's signal is another's noise!

 

You'll need to block noise from the inverter from entering the system, while at the same time, prevent the filter from sucking the Insteon "signal" (e.g. noise...) Good luck with that!

 

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Please don't do what my business partner did more than a decade ago when I was involved in high-frequency trading. (I wrote the software, my partner had the unfortunate task of dealing with any failed trades manually... Imagine a job where the only thing you do is dealing with failure!)

 

Anyway, for obvious reasons, we both had backup power. We went about it in different ways. I still have my Minuteman E2300 with external battery pack. It can let me work at software development for maybe 8 hours (perhaps with Internet, perhaps without...). I ran my refrigerator off of it for a day during a big blackout in San Diego a few years back! BTW, this is a reliable workhorse you can probably get on eBay for a song. (A lot less than their newer models!) I've replaced the gel cells a few times. (I realize this doesn't address your whole-house problem, but might still do in a pinch if you are willing to bust-out a couple of long orange cords!)

 

My partner got a much smaller UPS, good for maybe 15 minutes. And a Honda Generator. The one time he used it was for a scheduled outage in the new housing development he moved into. The power company was completing the wiring, and required shutting off the power to the whole complex for a day. He worked happily for a couple of hours on his Honda generator. Then a contractor working on the house across the street knocked on his door, saying he was painting, and hadn't known about the outage. He had heard the noise from the generator, and wondered if he could plug-in for a few minutes to mix some paint with an electric drill with a mixer attachment.

 

No paint was mixed. And no trading was done for the rest of that day! Fortunately, Home Depot has a liberal returns policy. Generator promptly died, and for good, upon applying power to the drill.

 

Lesson: if you will be running motors on your backup equipment, make sure it is designed to run motors! (Can deal with the power factor and surge). My refrigerator complained a bit (but worked), but not the UPS. It's a sine-wave UPS BTW.

 

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BTW, I (at least try) to keep the noise from my UPS and all my computer equipment with a big-*** multi-stage FilterTec filter. They make some nice filters.(Hmmm, can't find them! I'm thinking maybe they were acquired by API Technologies? That's where searches lead me...

[stusviews]

My take is that Insteon power-line is flawed technology which they finally have realized since going dual-band. The problem is that one person's signal is another's noise!

 

The Insteon protocol was dual-band from the onset. The original products, based on proven power line reliability did not include RF capability. RF was added to products over time. There are still some devices without that capability, but the standard has been there from the beginning.

[Teken]

It should also be noted most power line noise can be filtered out using line filters. RF noise issues are near impossible to filter out and the choices are quite limited which are:

 

1. Remove RF device.

2. Replace RF device.

3. Turn off RF device.

4. Move RF device.

 

Its fair to say all four options are rarely done either out of need of the product - its no longer being made - the device can't be moved due to use case and local access - and last it cost too much to replace only to find out a replacement offers the same RF issues.

 

I know lots of folks who get into the whole home automation believe Z-Wave / ZigBee is the super hero hardware of choice. But anyone who has used any of the two can tell you they require 2-3 times more investment just to make the network operate consistently and reliably.

 

For Z-Wave with the advent of generation 5 plus hardware this has improved lots of the consistency & reliability issues seen with previous generation products. Having said this - RF based hardware like Z-Wave / ZigBee still require massive amounts of repeaters to operate in a home.

 

Insteon's dual band technology makes sense and newer products have increased their RF output to better its performance and reliability. 

[jtara92101]

Yes, I suppose you can say Insteon was dual-band from the start. But only the access point and battery-powered buttons were available in RF. The access-point was a nice hack to bridge the phases without having to wire something into your panel. (They did also have a bridge you could plug-in to a 220 outlet...)

 

But wired switches and buttons used only power-line technology. The reliability is great now with the latest dual-band switches and buttons. I suspect there is really no need for the power-line transmission any more.

 

Power-line control operates by injecting "signal" (e.g. NOISE) into the line. Devices are tuned to isolate Insteon's noise and extract the signal from it. As far as your other electronics equipment, this "signal" is NOISE, which is (in many cases) to be eliminated!

[Brian H]

The first RF Insteon device was the 2442 Signlinc RF phase bridge and did not use the present RF frequency of 915 MHz. It was 904 MHz. There where no battery devices in the beginning of Insteon sales.

[lilyoyo1]

Insteon as with any company has improved its product over time. Whether its due to advances in technology or time, its signalling capability has improved tremendously over time. 

 

As Teken has stated, RF is not the end all to everything. There are cases where Zwave works better than insteon and there are cases where Insteon works much better than zwave. For example, Ive seen a 4 story stone house with concrete (patios out back) all over along with very thick and dense walls. Zwae could not communicate at all to devices a floor above/below. Even within the same level, the signal was hit or miss. The homeowner switched over to Insteon and everything worked without issues (lighting is on its own separate panel).

 

Even in smaller installations with RF issues, the insteon powerline signal can overcome potential distance issues or RF issues. Due to powerline issues, RF can help but due to how Insteon works, Zwave may be a better fit. There is no single perfect protocol.

[larryllix]

I hope you realise that 4kW off a 12 volt battery is almost impossible!

 

At 80% efficiency you would be drawing 420 amperes off a 12 volt battery bank. If you have any impedance or a battery that isn't rated at way over 400-500 amperehours your impedance in just the battery will probably never  afford it.

 

You will need huge wiring and do NOT solder connections as solder is a poor conductor and recommended against by any power connection industries. It can vaporise and explode on heavy currents.

[MWareman]

Here is one... Has a 500A fuse kit as an option...

 

It has 10% thd though...

 

http://www.theinverterstore.com/4000-watt-low-frequency-pure-sine-inverter-charger-230v-50hz.html

[Concetta Parsons]

Now i understand why my inverter is not working properly.. Thanks for sharing this information