Has there been any interest in getting rid of the Java app?

[oberkc]

Teken is a little rough around the edges but we keep him around because he is our token mascot snowman.

Another description of Teken is that he simply says what the rest of us are thinking.

 

My impressions thus far also is that another indicator of doing something wrong is when you elicit a strong reaction from the normally-gentle-and-kind Michel (see post 24).

 

Count me among those without much sympathy here. You want stable? Stay with 4.X. That was the version it came with. It did the job for which you purchased it, so why upgrade?

[travlynman]

Sorry you had to be sarcastic regarding keyboards.  I actually started out finger loading computers and then feeding in programs with paper tape.

 

Yes there are learning curves to all things with power and change.  However, one usually doesn't have to start over to gain access to the device every time something changes.

 

A good solid, stable access program is not really to much to ask for.  Alpha and Beta changes may come and go and I whole heartedly agree they are needed.  However, I want to work on the changes not the basics each time.

[travlynman]

 

 

Site Admin

 

Administrators

 

4,839 posts

 

 

Posted Today, 12:05 PM

 

Hi travlynman,

 

 

travlynman, on 22 Dec 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

 

 

Yep! I've had it! Upgraded to Firmware 5.0.7

 

Although we are currently working on Java replacement I have a nagging question: why would you even fathom trying an Alpha firmware/software?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

************

My need for alphas is due to the nagging problems caused to X10 devices brought about by the new hydro meters causing stray signals etc.

 

Before I moved ahead with my UDI device I posted a question as to the best route to proceed for the future. The answer was "ZWAVE".

Now I have a drawer full of Zwave devices that aren't workable presently with UDI. Yes the switches work, the repeaters work, and the door lock works somewhat. None of the minimote controllers work and the same for other similar multichannel devices.

To date the alpha firmware has gotten me over the X10 issues and has worked fair well. The main problem keeps going back to the Java front end that seems to constantly find new and better ways to find another way to block ones access to admin and dashboard.

 

On closing the UDI device is great. Access software is (respectfully) A PAIN.

 

Art Jones

[oberkc]

The Universal Devices device was purchased to do a specific job.

 I posted a question as to the best route to proceed for the future

Yes, we would all like a device that grew as did our desires, as fast as our desires.  For me, I guess I see these two goals quoted as contradictory.  A "specific job" to me is the here-and-now.  The future is change, growth, different, unpredictable.

 

If your priority is more tool and less toy, then I would stick with the here and now (v4.X).  V5.X is more the hobby side of things. 

 

Now....if you had stayed with v4.x and stated instead that you wish some of the new capabilities get here sooner, I'll bet you would have gotten a lot less flack. 

 

Me, I continue to be amazed that, whether talking cell phones or home automation, that we expect and receive not just what we purchase, but continued updates and improvements.  I sure wish cars were this way.  (Hats off to Tesla.)

 

[Teken]

There isn't anyone here that would argue Java needs to go, and might quick. But this in no way addresses the fact there are basic pitfalls in using Alpha / Beta firmware.

 

Java in some form is loaded and used in tens of billions of devices around the world. For its time it was one of the greatest methods to obtain real time status and operations from remote devices. Fast forward to 2016 Java is one of the worst exploited pieces of software besides Windows OS's.

 

Because people with more skill then morals, values, and common decency have opted to use its deficiency to make profit. UDI doesn't make or sell Oracles Java in what ever flavor you use or have. But they do have to work around the weekly changes from Oracle as do the countless millions using a Windows based PC.

 

I expect multi channel support will be more finalized in the New Year as you correctly note this has been long in coming. Regardless, one needs to set realistic expectations on what Alpha / Beta firmware will offer and how this impacts the end users experience.  

[MWareman]

 

 

My need for alphas is due to the nagging problems caused to X10 devices brought about by the new hydro meters causing stray signals etc.

 

Not sure why you think the alpha software, with its lack of stability, missing features and STRONG recommendation against non-developer use will address any X10 issues you may be experiencing.

 

X10 issues encountered after adding a noisy device cannot be solved by software. Trying Alpha software will only add to your pain, adding issues to your setup unrelated to the issue you are trying to solve. Your options are likely limited to removing the problematic device(s), filters, or moving away from X10. Either way, to save your sanity put back the latest 4.x stable release and restore the backup you took when you upgraded.

[larryllix]

As much as I dont like Java stuff either what makes people think another language base will be any better?

 

Wouldn't we be better to stay with a well polished engine instead of something a newcomer, like google, tries to sell everybody? Just the attempts to force me to load in their browsers using so many lies makes me not trust them very far.

I notice google doesn't load in maps completely, flash them on the monitor, and then grey them out with a warning box that IE is not capable of displaying them anymore. Kind of installs trust there.

 

OTOH: we are using a new java engine every week for the last few years maybe should be labelled "beta" software also, if they were honest enough to come up to UDI standards and admit there is many bugs.

 

Java running in vehicles and other components, is not the versions we are dealing with.

[Scottmichaelj]

How did this thread get off topic that Art was talking about lack of documentation and moving away from Java to firmware and picking on him? SMH

[IndyMike]

Wow,

What I read from travlynman's first post in this thread was a request for help.  Teken kicked him in the teeth and inserted his own version of reality (didn't read the posts) and everyone else piled on.  Not at all what I expected from this forum.  Particularly saddened by post #24 - I expected someone to lead and attempt to understand rather than follow forum comments. 

 

I have my own reasons for being upset with the Zwave, V5.X, and the general ISY firmware development progress.  Based on the responses I see in this thread, this forum is not currently capable of accepting critical questions. 

 

Apparently, 2016 was a bad year to try to re-engage with this forum.  I’m hoping 2017 will find you all a bit more tolerant.

 

Happy Holliday’s to you all 

[Michel Kohanim]

Art,

 

I appreciate the feedback alas 5.0.x is still alpha so how do we know the issue is Java and not 5.0.8 and, specifically, how can we debug/HELP you based on "square one", "can't access anything" + complaints about Java, documentation, big picture, etc.? What exactly can't you access? ISY, devices, Admin Console? What error are you getting or are you getting any errors?

 

Also, and as you can find numerous references in the forum, we are working on replacing Java but it will not be today, neither will it be 6 months from now. Admin Console is the culmination of over 9 years of development and cannot just be replaced. Also, you are always welcome to submit a ticket to address your immediate issue but, again, Java will not be replaced overnight.

 

IM,

 

I am quite saddened that out of all the feedback/bug reports/fixes and improvements in 5.0.x forum, you pick one post and conclude with your conclusion. Replacing Java has been discussed very many times and shouting about it neither resurrects it nor does it make it a "critical question".

 

Happy Holidays.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[IndyMike]

IM,

 

I am quite saddened that out of all the feedback/bug reports/fixes and improvements in 5.0.x forum, you pick one post and conclude with your conclusion. Replacing Java has been discussed very many times and shouting about it neither resurrects it nor does it make it a "critical question".

 

Happy Holidays.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hello Michel,

 

You are assuming far too much.  My comments had very little to do with the 5.0.x forum, nothing to do with JAVA, and everything to do with missed commitments, broken applications, and the general intolerance of anything not UDI centric.  That is something that I have chosen not to air on the general forum. 

 

Shouting?? I have never shouted, and have not posted in six months.  I can't remember the last time I made a critical post (2008??).  Yep, I have issues with your applications, and you priorities, but I'm dealing with that.  I have chosen not to minimize your product by nit picking its various issues.  Again - this has NOTHING to do with JAVA!

 

I did not "pick out a post".  I regularly follow this forum.  I do object when I believe that a member is being treated unfairly.  Case in point - my post above.  This person was asking for help.

 

What upsets me most is that the stone trowing is coming from people that I have grown to respect.  This is not the way this forum had operated in the past.  In the past, forum members didn't simply follow the loudest (or most verbose) member.  They attempted to understand the perspective of the person posting.

 

I really do not care to this thread farther off its track.  If you wish to discuss further, you know how to contact me.

 

Regards,

IM.

 

 

 

[Teken]

Wow,

What I read from travlynman's first post in this thread was a request for help.  Teken kicked him in the teeth and inserted his own version of reality (didn't read the posts) and everyone else piled on.  Not at all what I expected from this forum.  Particularly saddened by post #24 - I expected someone to lead and attempt to understand rather than follow forum comments. 

 

I have my own reasons for being upset with the Zwave, V5.X, and the general ISY firmware development progress.  Based on the responses I see in this thread, this forum is not currently capable of accepting critical questions. 

 

Apparently, 2016 was a bad year to try to re-engage with this forum.  I’m hoping 2017 will find you all a bit more tolerant.

 

Happy Holliday’s to you all 

 

I'm sorry but you will be hard pressed to cite anything I wrote in reply to the OP that wasn't factual or offered insight. The original author of this thread posed a question about when Java could be deprecated and in turn see something new.

 

Such as HTML5 . . .

 

If you had taken the time to read my replies it would have been quite clear as it was to the hundreds of people reading the very same. You have been here long enough to know if I ever intended to *Kick someone in the teeth* that would be extremely clear as there would be no doubt as to the amount of teeth and blood laying on the virtual floor.

 

Your next statement that I (didn't read the posts) is absurd in the most extreme . . .

 

I would suggest you take a few moments to actually read what I stated in writing in the open forum. It not only addresses what is to come, on the road map, but has been discussed at length in 99999999999999999999 threads! Once again, you have been here long enough to know I am one of the most vocal members in and around this and other forums.

 

It is no great shock to anyone that I have been known to throw most anyone under the virtual bus when warranted. But what I never do is enter a thread half cocked replying to threads with out ACTUALLY READING EVERY REPLY FROM EVERY MEMBER . . .

 

EVER . . .

 

That is the difference between me and probably a large percentage of people in the Interwebs. It doesn't matter what I think because to me everyone has a right to express their thoughts in a factual and respective tone. Until such time as someone decides its a good time to drop the gloves and start talking about matters not based on reality or facts.

 

Anyone can cite any forum posts I have ever made here or home automation site. I will stand by my remarks, writing, and thoughts because you know what? Because I took the freaking time to actually think, consider, and research what the h^ll I'm talking about before I even lay ink to paper . . .

 

In this thread alone I offered facts to both of the OP's which doesn't change the fact nothing will speed up development given UDI receives more wants, needs, what if, on a daily basis then they could ever full fill.

 

Again, you have been here more than long enough to know I have given UDI and Michel more shots in the chin because many of the points you have made are indeed valid and true. Regardless of those facts - Once again lets be clear so anyone who can't understand my red neck English will in a few seconds . . .

 

He is using Alpha / Beta software . . .

 

What are the bullet points for those with an attention span of a squirrel?!?!

 

- Alpha / Beta software is intended for developers and those wishing to participate in the process.

 

- It is not intended to offer stability, reliability, or be used in a production environment.

 

- Java is on the road map to be replaced TBA

 

- There are dozens of bugs already captured and listed in the 5.07 branch. That doesn't make a person think there is much more to do like really that's a real WTF?!?

 

- Suggestions were offered to roll back to a official release or stable 4.XX RC. Which the OP hasn't done for what ever reason, why? Yet that's supposed to be UDI's fault and some how relates to Java / X10 / Admin Access?

 

- Its quite obvious there is more talking then reading . . . The very fact people can reply back and boldly say others haven't read the content when its clear a small minority TRULY HAVEN'T READ A BLOODY THING.

 

ITS ONLY IN WRITING FOR ALL TO SEE FOR CRIPES SAKES . . .

 

I would encourage you and everyone else who reads my replies. Look at my signature, if your blood is boiling, and I make you mad. This simply means I was clear, concise, you understood what I wrote, used paragraphs, and punctuations!

[Guitartexan01]

Hey Art! I will buy your unused Zwave devices. Let me know what you have and I will offer you a fair price. BTW, I don't use any Insteon or x10 - I'm Zwave only. My system with isy is rock solid for over two years now, and I'm integrated through portal to Alexa. It all works great.

As for IM, it is odd to lurk like Nosferatu. Come out of the shadows and engage with an open mind. To attempt to address almost daily changes in software and tech using preconceived bias and upset over past events obviously doesn't work. If you don't like Michels applications and priorities, start your own controller company and set your own.

He offered to help in any way he can, just give him information on what the problem is.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

 

As much as I love to read and appreciate SO SO very much all the posts that try to protect UDI from those who may criticize UDI, I have this uneasy feeling that this forum is increasingly becoming a polarization and ad hominem tool rather than what its original intent was: to be another venue for support, for feedback/suggestions, and exchange of ideas in the realm of ISY/automation/IoT/Energy Management. At the moment, it seems that ISY/UDI is becoming a subject like Apple vs. X or Windows vs. Y, etc. with the detrimental effect of killing free exchange of ideas: you are either with X or you are a traitor and what you say is treasonous. Again, as much as I think ISY/UDI is the best thing in the world, and as much as I love to hear nothing but accolades but I am not willing to give up liberty, freedom and free exchange of ideas for a few feel good moments. As long as posts follow the non-political, non-religious, non-ad-hominem, non-profanity rules and hopefully posit relevant topics, everyone should be free to post any type of criticism, vent frustrations, and shout as loud as one wishes without worrying about recrimination.

 

Thank you all.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[fasttimes]

 

BTW, I figured out how to get the admin module displaying properly on a high DPI.

 

1. Uninstall Java 8
2. Install Java 9 JRE from https://jdk9.java.net/download/ (make sure you download the correct version for your OS)
3. Download the admin.jnlp from http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/19444-whats-with-the-java-2-required/?p=182606
4. Run the admin.jnlp

 

Michel,

 

Can you please make this a sticky?  Everytime I have to install a new machine I run into this issue, and I have to end up finding my own post.  I'm sure I'm not the only one with this problem (high dpi)

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi fasttimes,

 

I did. Thanks so very much.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[proj964]

Firefox has dropped support for Java.

Doesn't that just leave Internet Explorer with Java Support?

Soon no one will be able to sign on to their ISY-994i device at all?

Or am I missing something?

Jon

[jtara92101]

 

Or am I missing something?

 

 

You are missing something.

 

Run the admin applet from a desktop shortcut, like most everybody does now. You do not need to run it in a browser, and really running in a browser is a rather bad way to run it anyway.

 

Go back through the comments here for instructions.

[proj964]

You are missing something.

 

Run the admin applet from a desktop shortcut, like most everybody does now. You do not need to run it in a browser, and really running in a browser is a rather bad way to run it anyway.

 

Go back through the comments here for instructions.

Ok, clearly you think I am both uninformed and wrong.

I have had the device for some time and if I knew about the "applet", had long since forgotten about it because I didn't need it.

One of the things I like about devices with embedded web servers is that you can open up their user interface from anywhere with just a browser.

Now I have to have one more piece of clutter on each system to open an interface to the isy device. This simply isn't progress to me NOR the

right direction in which to take the product. I have tens of devices, printers, firewalls, ethernet switches, etc that you simple point the browser to

and your on your way. Nothing else to install, setup, maintain...

If you think every devices needs a "application" then you just don't understand the real world. And, more and more, I see devices with embedded

web servers for just this reason.

If I have offended in way, I apologize up front.

[apostolakisl]

You can add me to the list that does not at all like the java console.   

 

1) You have to keep that app installed

2) You have to re-install and clear the java cash every time you change the firmware

3) It constantly loses its connection to ISY

4) Changes on the java console are not propagated to ISY until you hit the often times not intuitive "save", sometimes multiple saves in multiple locations (network resources), then you go through a delay of sending and reloading.  Very tedious in the network resource section.

5) You can't have two ISY's open at the same time (at least as far as I can tell.  I did have two open at once when they were on different firmware versions, though).

6) You have to keep re-installing Java since they seem to have an update every couple weeks and telling them not to install that blasted Yahoo junk.

[larryllix]

..and yet more and more products are turning to java.

Ooma VOIP service app just converted to java.

 

These cheap browsers find more and more webpage they just can't display properly without it.

 

More and more programmers like java and are learning it. Java is just in it's infancy.

 

I don't like it either but I am in the minority, apparently.

 

yeah, trying to sneak in some "we own you" software really turns my gut. I think that is one of the main reasons I would not turn to a chrome browser again...dirty tactics.

[giesen]

..and yet more and more products are turning to java.

Ooma VOIP service app just converted to java.

 

These cheap browsers find more and more webpage they just can't display properly without it.

 

More and more programmers like java and are learning it. Java is just in it's infancy.

 

I don't like it either but I am in the minority, apparently.

 

yeah, trying to sneak in some "we own you" software really turns my gut. I think that is one of the main reasons I would not turn to a chrome browser again...dirty tactics.

Larry I think you are conflating Java with JavaScript (they are not at all the same thing despite the similarity in name) Java in the browser is all but dead, although Java apps on the desktop are still doing well and Java in the enterprise is still going gangbusters.

 

UDI has acknowledged that the Java app is a bit painful and unwieldy, and intend to eventually replace it, but quite frankly they have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

 

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

[larryllix]

Larry I think you are conflating Java with JavaScript (they are not at all the same thing despite the similarity in name) Java in the browser is all but dead, although Java apps on the desktop are still doing well and Java in the enterprise is still going gangbusters.

UDI has acknowledged that the Java app is a bit painful and unwieldy, and intend to eventually replace it, but quite frankly they have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

Gary.

I think you are confusing me with somebody that knew that.

 

I only know one think about java. Anything that is written using it takes sometimes ten minutes to load a page on a smaller CPU. I can't even use ebay anymore, since they went to java, as it tries to load hundreds of pictures for each search result. My admin console takes just about 6-7 minutes to load the programs. I have aborted it many times recently due to thinking it hung.

 

Thanks

[jtara92101]

I only know one think about java. Anything that is written using it takes sometimes ten minutes to load a page on a smaller CPU. I can't even use ebay anymore, since they went to java, as it tries to load hundreds of pictures for each search result. My admin console takes just about 6-7 minutes to load the programs. I have aborted it many times recently due to thinking it hung.

 

 

 

Exactly the opposite about eBay. I hadn't heard about this, so  I looked it up. A couple years ago, they moved from Java to Javascript (nodejs/Express) for their server code. It's all the rage right now. Google V8 (don't say it, don't say it... I could have had a...) running NodeJS. It's popular because now you can use the same language for in-browser UI code and server code. Does it perform well? I think the jury is out. You need tricks to make it perform, I think. Load balancers and multiple instances solve all problems, right? 

 

Loading "hundred of pictures for each search result" is a bad design decision, not a bad language decision, though.

 

For many sites, what language is used on server is determined by who has you by the .....

 

Oracle, IBM: Java

Google: Javascript

Microsoft: C#

 

The rest of us use whatever is appropriate for the task. Except for cut/paste artists, who use PHP, pretty-much the worst programming language ever. Unfortunately, it is neck-and-neck with Java, the second worst language ever - for #1.

 

Naming history, in case there is anyone who didn't know: Sun Microsystems released Java, and a Mozilla browser plugin to go-with. Mozilla released Javascript on their coattails, and it has NOTHING to do with Java. 30 years later, they are still confused. It's particularly confusing, because Java is a general-purpose (but horrible, did you get that part?) language that got it's first buzz as a browser plugin. Javascript is a language first released as an in-browser language, that has morphed into a general-purpose language.

 

Confused yet?

 

Anyway, anyone who asserts that Java stinks is preaching to the choir, and the choir seems to include UDI. But they have an Admim interface (in Java) that works - if awkwardly - and more important things to do right now.

 

There is UDAjax. Which uses JavaSCRIPT in a browser, and whatever ISY uses internally (presume, C, C++). But it is incomplete, and will probably remain so until the Holy Grail of 5.0 is reached.

[Michel Kohanim]

Save button is not a Java issue. You will have dropped subscriptions regardless of Java.

 

I understand the need to vent frustrations. Just to manage expectations: please note that Admin Console is a configuration tool and not a day to day command, control, or monitoring tool. Its non-Java replacement will NOT be either.

 

With kind regards,

Michel