raptor Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 Which Insteon device would be best to control my electric fireplace true my ISY. This is the fireplace I have http://www.dimplex.com/en/electric_fireplaces/fireboxes_inserts/products/bf45dxp/45_deluxe_builtin_electric_firebox
stusviews Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 Which voltage and amperage is your fireplace? what do you use to control it now? Better yet, which specific model do you have?
raptor Posted January 4, 2017 Author Posted January 4, 2017 BF45DXP is the model I have. From the manual it appears 240 volts 11.25 amps. Currently it's only wired on 120 volts with no heat option and I control it with a switchlinc. Since I have a back up generator now I want to have it re wired to 240 volts so that I can use it for back up heat if power goes out. My only other source of heat is my heat pump and the generator won't run it.
stusviews Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 There are currently only two Insteon compatible devices that are designed to control a 220V load, the Elk relay and the Insteon relay. The Insteon relay can be installed outdoors.
raptor Posted January 4, 2017 Author Posted January 4, 2017 the insteon relay is the one I was looking at. Just wanted to make sure it would work with my fireplace and be controllable via the ISY. I don't want to add to my box off things I bought without researching and ended up not doing what I wanted
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 There are currently only two Insteon compatible devices that are designed to control a 220V load, the Elk relay and the Insteon relay. The Insteon relay can be installed outdoors. I see that the Insteon relay has either normally open or normally closed option. What is the difference. Does this mean that with the normally closed relay the fireplace could still run if the relay ever fails?
stusviews Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 Yes, that's correct. Normally closed is usually used for devices that are normally on, such as a hot water heater. For a fireplace, normally open is the correct choice.
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 Yes, that's correct. Normally closed is usually used for devices that are normally on, such as a hot water heater. For a fireplace, normally open is the correct choice. You say for fireplace normally open would be the way to go. If there is power outages and need the fireplace and the relay fails that means I can't use it. With a normally closed if it fails and I still want to turn it of there is a switch on the fireplace itself or the breaker. So wouldn't normally closed be better option for my application?
Teken Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 You say for fireplace normally open would be the way to go. If there is power outages and need the fireplace and the relay fails that means I can't use it. With a normally closed if it fails and I still want to turn it of there is a switch on the fireplace itself or the breaker. So wouldn't normally closed be better option for my application? Since you mentioned the electric fire place will be placed on the back up generator you would have power anyways. Is the furnace in your home electric, gas, propane, oil, other? Regardless, the N.O. relay should be installed as this ensures a measure of built in safety.
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 Since you mentioned the electric fire place will be placed on the back up generator you would have power anyways. Is the furnace in your home electric, gas, propane, oil, other? Regardless, the N.O. relay should be installed as this ensures a measure of built in safety. I don't have a furnace I have a heat pump and the generator won't run it. I don't understand what you mean that I would have power anyway because it's connected to the generator. Regardless of were the power comes into the house(whether the power pole or generator) it flow true my generator transfer switch, then true the insteon relay. If the relay fails and it's normally open I assume it fails at the open position and thus it would not work. Unless I'm understanding this wrong.
Teken Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 I don't have a furnace I have a heat pump and the generator won't run it. I don't understand what you mean that I would have power anyway because it's connected to the generator. Regardless of were the power comes into the house(whether the power pole or generator) it flow true my generator transfer switch, then true the insteon relay. If the relay fails and it's normally open I assume it fails at the open position and thus it would not work. Unless I'm understanding this wrong. Since you don't have a furnace then this high lights the importance of quality components in use. There is a higher likely hood that an Insteon piece of hardware will fail before a high quality relay. If you are truly concerned about a failure you can purchase an extra as back up. But as stated by Stu the correct relay for this application would be a N.O. relay. Keep in mind you can also rewire the Insteon Load Controller from N.O. to N.C. just be changing the pins. Having said this I would opt to using the ELK Relay solution over the Insteon one. If you look closely at the ELK there is no magic here you can find the same contactor relay from any HVAC store.
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 I appreciate and respect everyone's opinion and not arguing that your wrong I would just like to understand the why NC is so bad, as I don't get it. If I was to use a normally closed and it fails and just stays close why does this mater. If failed in the closed position wouldn't that be the same as if it was connected directly to the breaker panel. And from what I see in the manual that's an installation option. Again not arguing just trying to understand. As for the ELK i'm not familiar with this. From what I read my understanding is I would just need to plug into and Insteon plug to open and close the relay.
stusviews Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 Being connected to the breaker is not the concern. If you lose control of the Insteon NC load controller, then the electric fireplace would be stuck on. The only way to turn it off (or on again) is to remove (or restore) power at the electric panel. Yes, the ELK relay is plugged into any HA outlet, such as an Insteon On/Off Module or On/Off Outlet and then controlling the Insteon device.
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 The fireplace has an on off button directly on it. If the relay fails on the closed position I just turn it on or of manually just like I would if connected directly to the panel. This way here I would never be stuck without backup heat.
DennisC Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 If that is what you would like, the correct way to accomplish it would be to utilize the normally open contacts and install a manual bypass switch. Using normally open contacts is the only way this device should be wired. Safety is paramount.
raptor Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 Again I'm not trying to argue (even if it may seem like it). I don't see how NC is unsafe. The manufacture shows connected directly to panel a viable way to wire it so I assume it is safe. I fail to see the difference between a relay that is stuck on the close position or the fireplace connected directly to the panel. Either way their is constant power going to the fireplace. Sorry if I'm just not seeing the obvious.
DennisC Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 The "obvious" that you are missing is that you are adding automation to the system. In the event of some type of failure or malfunction, you don't want the possibility of your unit to be left on when it shouldn't be. Things can happen, someone could forget to manually turn it off, or something that no one thinks of happens. This is why things are wired in a "fail safe" mode.
Teken Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 Again I'm not trying to argue (even if it may seem like it). I don't see how NC is unsafe. The manufacture shows connected directly to panel a viable way to wire it so I assume it is safe. I fail to see the difference between a relay that is stuck on the close position or the fireplace connected directly to the panel. Either way their is constant power going to the fireplace. Sorry if I'm just not seeing the obvious. Nobody here I believe thinks you're arguing and such discussions are valuable for all. As noted by others anytime you interface something that has the potential to activate unintended. This places the home and the occupants at risk . . . In case you're not aware a very small percentage of Insteon users have been impacted to what is called the ALL ON / ALL OFF syndrome. Meaning with out notice, intent, or want almost every device in your home can automagically turn on with out your wish. If we simply ignore the energy costs for a moment can you imagine what could happen if you automated something from HVAC, Windows, Doors, Appliances. Imagine a sump pump, fridge, freezer, all turning off when they are supposed to be on.
raptor Posted January 6, 2017 Author Posted January 6, 2017 OK I see what you mean, however the unit has temperature cutout switch that shuts off the unit if it overheats. I guess the cutout switch and the relay could both fail at the same time and cause it to overheat. Maybe I'm over-complicating things. Since it's only for back-up and we don't have that many power outages, plus I have infloor heat so for short outages the warm floor will continue to heat for a bit. Maybe I should just leave the fireplace as is and buy a space heater. Although I've heard those can also be unsafe at times.
Teken Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 OK I see what you mean, however the unit has temperature cutout switch that shuts off the unit if it overheats. I guess the cutout switch and the relay could both fail at the same time and cause it to overheat. Maybe I'm over-complicating things. Since it's only for back-up and we don't have that many power outages, plus I have infloor heat so for short outages the warm floor will continue to heat for a bit. Maybe I should just leave the fireplace as is and buy a space heater. Although I've heard those can also be unsafe at times. I believe you are well armed with the pros vs cons of going what ever route. Its up to you and like I said the Insteon Load Controller can in fact be changed internally from N.O. to N.C. if you wish. Won't hurt you at all to change it to what ever meets your needs even if its N.C. If later you decide for what ever reason to change it back to N.O. that's fine too! NOTE: Most *current* selling heating appliances have over heat, tilt, high limit detection. Having said this one only needs to do a Google search to see even these safeties have failed.
raptor Posted January 6, 2017 Author Posted January 6, 2017 If the overheat safety in the fireplace is not reliable then I totally see and agree that a N.O. relay would be better. However even with a N.O. relay if I was to experiences the ALL ON syndrome as mentioned above or for any other reason my automation system send on to the relay without me noticing I'm in the same danger of the fireplace being on too long. I think the safest way to wire it is as it is now. 120 volts and only power the lights inside and continue to use for decoration only.
paulbates Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 If the overheat safety in the fireplace is not reliable then I totally see and agree that a N.O. relay would be better. However even with a N.O. relay if I was to experiences the ALL ON syndrome as mentioned above or for any other reason my automation system send on to the relay without me noticing I'm in the same danger of the fireplace being on too long. I think the safest way to wire it is as it is now. 120 volts and only power the lights inside and continue to use for decoration only. If you are buying a new IOlinc, Smarthome has been manufacturing new devices to ignore the all-on, which is something that can be tested and confirmed. I agree on your other concerns, however.., for instance, counting on an ISY program to turn the fireplace off... but the PLM dies. Paul
larryllix Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 What I would do it wire the ioLinc N.O. contacts to the fireplace millivolt control system as recommended. Then I would also parallel connect a switch, or better yet, a cheap ($5-15) mechanical thermostat, across the same control input contacts. If the power fails or you have no Insteon control, the ioLinc fails for whatever reason, now you cna bypass the whole thing with (preferably) the thermostat to get heat in the event of a failure or power grid failure and your generator won't run it. Normally you would just keep the thermostat turned down to the coldest setting, or switched off, but it would be there years from now in any of those conditions. You may have to bypass the predictor resitive elemnt in series with the contacts, if one is installed inside, especially for a millivolt themopile system.
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