pyrorobert Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Hello All, I am quite frustrated at this point with my Insteon devices and the amount of communication losses that I encounter on a daily basis. It seems to be with more that I add to my home, the more seems to go bad. I only have 33 devices in my system and it seem to have more issues with I/O Lincs than anything else. I have 3 motion sensors 6 I/OLincs 4 Micro on/off modules 2 Din Relays 4 8 button Switches 5 Switches 3 Thermostats 2 Hidden Door Sensors 1 Water Leak Sensor 1 Outlet Linc 2 LampLincs 1 Range Extender This is all controlled and programmed with my ISY-994i at the latest revision and connected with a PLM About 2 months ago, I had a major PLM fail on me and Smarthome replaced it under warranty. This was my 4th one in the last 4 years. After the last PLM was replaced, it affected quite a few of my programs that would no longer run. So I deleted them and rewrote any that would not work. At that point they would start to function. I also found my IOLinc that controls my garage door to lose communications, but was only about 20 feet away from the PLM. It turns out that it was dead and I ended up replacing it. Now that the new one was in place, I would still receive communication losses, so I added a Range Extender to it. I assuming it helped, but I still receive comm losses every so often (maybe once a week). I also use 2 of my IOLincs for activating my sprinklers that I recently added and seem to lose communications every time they run. It happened once after it started but I noticed it did not turn off with the timed program. I had to go in and query it and then shut it off. I also have one other IOLinc monitoring the Doorbell sensor, but now it seems to have died as it loses communication as soon as it receives a signal. With that said, I have a Motion sensor that is about 15 feet from my Range Extender that constantly loses communications, but when you walk in front of it, it turns on all of the lights that it is supposed to. I have it programmed through the programs and not directly linked to the switches so if it loses communication to the PLM, how does it turn on the appropriate lights? All of my light switches, Micros, and Lamplincs work with no issues. My thermostats (2 Venstars with adapters and 1 Insteon Wireless) seem to work properly with communications to the PLM. I did attempt a Show PLM Table Link and it only gave me a count of 77. From searching through the forum, this seems low. I am not sure if noise filters would help, most of the furthest switches work with no problem. My home is not huge (around 2800 sq ft) so to say if it is a distance issue. My background is on electrical and fire alarm systems, so most of this is not difficult for me to understand. I may not know that much coding but understand a lot of the programs that are utilized. Thank you for taking the time to read my rant and I appreciate your assistance. Regards, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Hello Robert, Please review this related thread and the possible steps to help guide you: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/21248-4-tap-test-in-large-house/page-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 When the problem seems widespread, I tend to think of the PLM location. Besides a failed PLM, I would make sure it is on a clean circuit...no other electronic equipment allowed (unless filtered). No computers. No power supplies. No UPS. Yes, confirm phase coupling. Yes, link records could be broken, but if symptoms are inconsistent, I would tend to discount this possibility. I expect broken links to cause consistent failures to communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveL Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Robert, I just sent you an email asking if I can call you regarding this. If it is noise on the powerline then here is a post that may help.\ http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15276-insteon-signal-noise-troubleshooting/ Regards, Steve L UDI Support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Hi Steve, Not a problem. I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Teken Thanks I will dig into this further. Oberkc, I was assuming this too but all of my light switches are dual band and seem to work fine. I have more issues with IOLincs than anything else. For the most part, I have a dual band device nearby, or on the same circuit with them. The only one that didn't, was the one that I added the Range Extender. I will confirm phase coupling today. Steve, Have not seen your email yet. Thank you, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Oberkc, I was assuming this too but all of my light switches are dual band and seem to work fine. I have more issues with IOLincs than anything else. For the most part, I have a dual band device nearby, or on the same circuit with them. The only one that didn't, was the one that I added the Range Extender. I will confirm phase coupling today. pyrorobert, my experience is such that I do not count on dual-band technology to eliminate communication problems, even those limited to powerline. I still find it good to ensure your PLM is on a clean circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teken Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 my experience is such that I do not count on dual-band technology to eliminate communication problems, even those limited to powerline. I still find it good to ensure your PLM is on a clean circuit. Can't stress the above enough - No amount of coupling / bridging or dual band devices in a home will ever supersede the need to identify those noise makers / signal suckers in the home. The only true method is to filter those you can or remove & replace hardware that can't be properly filtered. Given a large majority of the Insteon hardware is now dual band this technology has offered a little more leeway in terms of low noise issues. But at the end of the day a band aid is a band aid - There's a time to rip that band aid off and move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Welcome to hell. Well, not quite - more like a special fringe zone of hell, specially-designated to ensure very specific unending misery for Insteon users. My home is littered (quite literally - Insteon filterlincs are ugly) with Insteon noise filters all over. Everything that has a switching power supply has one now -- even the phone chargers. Since the filterlincs are so ugly and so expensive, I've tried to minimize them - using extension cords and power strips even when there's a perfectly-serviceable outlet in the wall near the appliance in question. I also have an Insteon phase coupler (insert comment here from stusviews regarding the correct use of the term "phase", sigh). And a couple of the large wired-in 20A X10 filters. Despite all this, my Insteon network is barely acceptable. By that I mean that automation operations all succeed, but some may have retries. Admin operations (such as rewriting the link tables on a KPL) usually fail more often than they work, but with persistence I can get the job done. ---- The suggestion from Teken is spot-on -- find those noise-makers, and be prepared to accept that there's many, many of them -- and they may well be very very small (I'm not kidding about the cell phone chargers -- I've banned the cheapo chinese ones from the home entirely, but even so the name-brand Samsung, Apple, and Asus ones I have now render the kitchen KPLs unreliable when plugged in). ---- Finally, let me note that many of the members of this forum, along with myself, have noted that the RF features of the Insteon devices only work if the power-line is relatively clean. In other words, the RF feature is really most useful for bridging the phases (insert another comment from stusviews here) -- if the Insteon power-line signal can't get through due to noise on the power-line, then the Insteon RF signal may well not be detected either. ---- I wish I had a solution. This isn't a noisy environment out where I live (I'm the only customer on this power-company transformer, and it's only 5 years old). The house wiring is all new -- the house is new (5 years old). The appliances are all modern, and name brand (no junk). Yet, I cannot get a reliable Insteon signal! (I'm moving to z-wave at this point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Pepper Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 ---- I wish I had a solution. This isn't a noisy environment out where I live (I'm the only customer on this power-company transformer, and it's only 5 years old). The house wiring is all new -- the house is new (5 years old). The appliances are all modern, and name brand (no junk). Yet, I cannot get a reliable Insteon signal! (I'm moving to z-wave at this point). And this is why 5.X is so important to UDI and other companies. Insteon has issues and any company putting all of their eggs in one basket is not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I also have an Insteon phase coupler (insert comment here from stusviews regarding the correct use of the term "phase", sigh). And a couple of the large wired-in 20A X10 filters. Phase coupler is a correct term. A phase coupler bridges the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply. What is incorrect is referring to phases (pl). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 Ok so I tried out the 4 tap test and I have found that half of the devices worked with my PLM. I then relocated the spare Lamplinc on a different area that was not communicating with the PLM. I then applied the 4 Tap test from there and noticed the other half is responding, although they never responded together. I was reading through the link Teken sent me about the 4 Tap test and I was reading Dalter2's response about his POE switch and then it all dawned on me! This all began when I added my POE cameras around the house! They are all 48V cameras and I am assuming this is affecting my signals. I will disconnect them tomorrow and see if this improves my signal. Holy Crap Batman!! Regards, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Welcome to hell. Well, not quite - more like a special fringe zone of hell, specially-designated to ensure very specific unending misery for Insteon users. My home is littered (quite literally - Insteon filterlincs are ugly) with Insteon noise filters all over. Everything that has a switching power supply has one now -- even the phone chargers. Since the filterlincs are so ugly and so expensive, I've tried to minimize them - using extension cords and power strips even when there's a perfectly-serviceable outlet in the wall near the appliance in question. I also have an Insteon phase coupler (insert comment here from stusviews regarding the correct use of the term "phase", sigh). And a couple of the large wired-in 20A X10 filters. Despite all this, my Insteon network is barely acceptable. By that I mean that automation operations all succeed, but some may have retries. Admin operations (such as rewriting the link tables on a KPL) usually fail more often than they work, but with persistence I can get the job done. ---- The suggestion from Teken is spot-on -- find those noise-makers, and be prepared to accept that there's many, many of them -- and they may well be very very small (I'm not kidding about the cell phone chargers -- I've banned the cheapo chinese ones from the home entirely, but even so the name-brand Samsung, Apple, and Asus ones I have now render the kitchen KPLs unreliable when plugged in). ---- Finally, let me note that many of the members of this forum, along with myself, have noted that the RF features of the Insteon devices only work if the power-line is relatively clean. In other words, the RF feature is really most useful for bridging the phases (insert another comment from stusviews here) -- if the Insteon power-line signal can't get through due to noise on the power-line, then the Insteon RF signal may well not be detected either. ---- I wish I had a solution. This isn't a noisy environment out where I live (I'm the only customer on this power-company transformer, and it's only 5 years old). The house wiring is all new -- the house is new (5 years old). The appliances are all modern, and name brand (no junk). Yet, I cannot get a reliable Insteon signal! (I'm moving to z-wave at this point). Interesting! Do you have other electrical problem symptoms, like lights flickering, dips, or bright flashes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (I'm moving to z-wave at this point). Interestingly, it is with the zwave devices in my house that I get the "cannot communicate" errors when I log on. Perhaps it would be better if I had greater number of devices. Still, i hope that does not turn out to be a bad decision on your part. I suggest moving there slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 How old are the I/O Linc's? I have done some investigating of them. They used the same switching power supply IC as the 2413 series controllers and V2 Access Points. I suspect they will also be subject to the power supply degrading over time. I know one capacitor was changed between V1.0, V1.6 and V2.3 revisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveL Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 pyrorobert, I haven't followed the whole post but if you still want to speak with support you can contact us at: Support@universal-devices.com Provide your phone number and I can call you back. Steve L UDI Support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 Three of my IOLincs are probably about 3 years old. The rest are were purchased within the last year. One failed earlier this year and was replaced. I will have to check the versions once I am home. Steve, Yes, please, although I won't be home until later this afternoon. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 Robert, Please call our support @ 818-631-0333 or submit a ticket (links below). With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeviNH Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 ... I was reading Dalter2's response about his POE switch and then it all dawned on me! This all began when I added my POE cameras around the house! They are all 48V cameras and I am assuming this is affecting my signals. I will disconnect them tomorrow and see if this improves my signal. How are your PoE cameras connected and powered? Are you using PoE injectors or do you have a PoE switch that they all home run into? Any results from disconnecting them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 This isn't a noisy environment out where I live (I'm the only customer on this power-company transformer, and it's only 5 years old). The house wiring is all new -- the house is new (5 years old). The appliances are all modern, and name brand (no junk). Yet, I cannot get a reliable Insteon signal! (I'm moving to z-wave at this point). The "newness" of the home and wiring is inconsequential. Even the oldest homes with knob and tube wiring can get a clean signal. Wires are wires. What really matters is what is connected to those wires. Adding filters is useless unless the filtered device is known to cause problems. The only way to be sure is to disconnect the suspected device. If the signal improves, then a filter is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrorobert Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 My switch is only a 24 port switch without POE. I am using POE injectors that power all my cameras at the switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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