luminance/brightness detectino

[MarkJames]

Is anybody using any form of luminance/brightness detection in their HA system?  

 

I'd like to determine how bright a room is to decide if lights need to be turned on or off  based on motion.  Rather than deal with sunrise/sunset/time of day it would be ideal if I could just determine how bright the room is with the lights off and use that to decide if the lights should come on.

 

The HSM200 looks like a reasonable fit for this job but it's Zwave which I don't have.  I suppose for under $50 I could add it to my ISY....

 

There doesn't seem to be any environmental sensors for Insteon other than leak/motion/contact.  I was hoping there would be something that might report luminance in lux as a dim level (0-255) or similar.

 

Thanks!

 

mark

Edited March 26, 2017 by MarkJames

[larryllix]

CAO TAGs have introduced a new unit that sends luminance.

 

People are really impressed with their operation, so far. I have four but no luminence ones yet.

 

They are easy to interface with ISY via it's REST interface. The basic features are temperature, humidity, motion, battery voltage, and no luminance, al in the same tag.

 

Range is good, usually up to a few 1000 feet.

 

Charting is native on their website for all parameters.

[Scottmichaelj]

I'm sure you know this but the Insteon Motions can detect both motion and brightness. I use several around my home to see if two rooms are dark then turn on my sunset scene. #JustSayin

Edited March 26, 2017 by Scottmichaelj

[mwester]

I use the Aeon Labs multisensors (z-wave) for this purpose.

[MarkJames]

CAO TAGs have introduced a new unit that sends luminance.

 

People are really impressed with their operation, so far. I have four but no luminence ones yet.

 

They are easy to interface with ISY via it's REST interface. The basic features are temperature, humidity, motion, battery voltage, and no luminance, al in the same tag.

 

Range is good, usually up to a few 1000 feet.

 

Charting is native on their website for all parameters.

Those look really interesting.  Small, good battery life and excellent range.  

 

So when you say via the REST interface - do they report to a website that I then scrape?  Or can I get the data locally?  What's involved in getting the info from them?

 

Thanks!

Edited March 26, 2017 by MarkJames

[larryllix]

The REST interface is passive and programs, and even a browser, can operate programs, scenes, devices and variables directly by ISY's 'catchers mitt'

 

Sent from a tiny keyboard. Response may be brief.

Edited March 31, 2017 by larryllix

[MarkJames]

I'm sure you know this but the Insteon Motions can detect both motion and brightness. I use several around my home to see if two rooms are dark then turn on my sunset scene. #JustSayin

 

Yeah - I had nothing but trouble with those.  I have 3 brand new ones in a drawer that I'm gonna but on eBay.  I didn't like the battery life - and depending on where you mounted them they were awkward to change the batteries in.  Plus I didn't find them attractive (though the new ones look better).

 

They also only reported light/dark.  I want something that can tell me HOW light or dark.  I'm trying for 'so bright that lights that get turned on get shut off again' or 'bright - but maybe you want the lights on anyways so I'll leave the alone for half an hour' vs 'dark - lights get left alone'

 

mark

The REST interfsce us passive and programs, anf even a browser, csn opetate programs, scenes, devices and variables directly by it's 'catchers mitt'

 

Sent from a tiny keyboard. Response may be brief.

 

I'm familiar with the REST interface - I use it a lot - I'm just not sure how these tags send info to it?  Do they have wifi built into them or what?

 

mark

Edited March 26, 2017 by MarkJames

[Bumbershoot]

Those look really interesting.  Small, good battery life and excellent range.  

 

So when you say via the REST interface - do they report to a website that I then scrape?  Or can I get the data locally?  What's involved in getting the info from them?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

What units do they report?  lux?  percentage?  How accurate and reproducible do you find them?

 

mark

I've read mixed reviews on those.  Are you happy with them?

 

What units do they report?  lux?  percentage?  How accurate and reproducible do you find them?

 

mark

 

These use the REST interface, and there are two ways to get data to your ISY.  One way is to create a Kump App, and you can see one here written by larryllix.  A second method is "Custom URL Calling", and you can see an example of that here.  Here are a couple of recent forum topics that discuss these tags:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/8818-cao-sensors-support/

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/21076-postal-notification/

[MarkJames]

I use the Aeon Labs multisensors (z-wave) for this purpose.

Do you like them?  I've read mixed reviews from people on these.  How do they report light?  lux?  percentage?  something else?

 

I've been tempted to put the zwave dongle into my  994i but I'm not sure what else I'd do with it other than perhaps door locks.  

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

Do you like them?  I've read mixed reviews from people on these.  How do they report light?  lux?  percentage?  something else?

 

I've been tempted to put the zwave dongle into my  994i but I'm not sure what else I'd do with it other than perhaps door locks.  

 

mark

 

I have two of them, powered by USB, that I bought primarily to use as secure repeaters for my locks.  They've been very good for the nine months I've had them.  There have quite a bit of functionality.  My ISY firmware version is 5.0.8, which may make a difference.

 

I cant speak to the Glass Break Alarm, Tamper Alarm, Intrusion Alarm functionality, and I don't run any programs that use the "Luminance" value, so I can't help you there.  You have the ability to calibrate this device, and set a variety of parameters, so they're highly configurable.

 

For my 2¢, they're quite useful.

[MarkJames]

I have two of them, powered by USB, that I bought primarily to use as secure repeaters for my locks.  They've been very good for the nine months I've had them.  There have quite a bit of functionality.  My ISY firmware version is 5.0.8, which may make a difference.

 

I cant speak to the Glass Break Alarm, Tamper Alarm, Intrusion Alarm functionality, and I don't run any programs that use the "Luminance" value, so I can't help you there.  You have the ability to calibrate this device, and set a variety of parameters, so they're highly configurable.

 

For my 2¢, they're quite useful.

 

Those look very useful!   I'm gonna check on those.   

 

Out of curiousity - how do you use your z-wave locks?  I've pondered pulling the trigger on those a few times now but can't quite wrap my head around how I would benefit from them.

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

Those look very useful!   I'm gonna check on those.   

 

Out of curiousity - how do you use your z-wave locks?  I've pondered pulling the trigger on those a few times now but can't quite wrap my head around how I would benefit from them.

 

mark

 

I had a large house remodel over the summer, so I used the locks to allow access (and keep track of) the various contractors who were coming and going (they all had unique codes, and I got notified every time they came and went).  I didn't want to give out keys...  Since then, the locks have been useful for house guests and family.  I'm very pleased.

 

Plus, I can take to dog for a walk without having to locate my keychain, and the dog appreciates spontaneity...

Edited March 26, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[MarkJames]

So how would you say they compare to a basic keypad lock.  That's what I have on the doors that I generally come and go through.  Do you use the zwave functionality in some way for that?

[Bumbershoot]

I've been able to remotely open the door a few times for unexpected guests, so I haven't made extensive use of the Z-Wave features, other than the notification abilities through the ISY. That is big when you need it, but I don't need it daily.

[stusviews]

Although I take advantage of several features of Z-Wave locks (Schlage), what we like best is using programs to ensure that all the locks are secure at bedtime. We also have a candle-light in the bedroom that's dimly illuminated if any lock is unlocked. And, yes, we can use our voice to lock the doors

[builderb]

I'm a diy type, so I use a Pi and a $7 Lux sensor from Adafruit to measure light levels. I also use ~$1 resistive sensors for a verification of light on/off in a few places.

[MarkJames]

I'm a diy type, so I use a Pi and a $7 Lux sensor from Adafruit to measure light levels. I also use ~$1 resistive sensors for a verification of light on/off in a few places.

I've built quite a few things with arduinos and pis - love those little things.  I host my web page on a pi and have another one that polls my weather.  Quite a few people are using them as HTPC's nowadays running plex, too. I can't help but think that in this case either of those would actually be more expensive than a premade product.  

 

Heck, a pi3 is somewhere around $40.  Add a power supply and any light sensors you might want, tack on some shipping and you'll probably want an enclosure and you're easily upwards of $60.  A CAO tag can be had for $25 and you don't have to code it or build it.

[larryllix]

I've built quite a few things with arduinos and pis - love those little things. I host my web page on a pi and have another one that polls my weather. Quite a few people are using them as HTPC's nowadays running plex, too. I can't help but think that in this case either of those would actually be more expensive than a premade product.

 

Heck, a pi3 is somewhere around $40. Add a power supply and any light sensors you might want, tack on some shipping and you'll probably want an enclosure and you're easily upwards of $60. A CAO tag can be had for $25 and you don't have to code it or build it.

$60? Heck my last RPi 3 came at about $120 canuck buck. My first RPi came a few hundred dollars as it only supports HDMI and I didn't have a monitor that was less than a few years old with HDMI, a keyboard and mouse, since RPi would take those mini round connectors that all my dozen keyboar and mice have.

 

OTOH the Tags that started out as $15 now run $30-50 and Tag manager is another...what? $50

 

...but then us Canucks have to pay our part for the Obama wall to protect against our slingshots that sting so badly on our "bare arms".

 

Things has changed man.

Edited April 6, 2017 by larryllix

[MarkJames]

$60? Heck my last RPi 3 came at about $120 canuck buck. My first RPi came a few hundred dollars as it only supports HDMI and I didn't have a monitor that was less than a few years old with HDMI, a keyboard and mouse.

 

OTOH the Tags that started out as $15 now run $30-50 and Tag manager is another...what? $50

 

...but then us Canucks have to pay our part for the Obama wall to protect against our slingshots that sting so badly on our "bare arms".

lol - you're preaching to the choir.  I live on Vancouver Island in BC.  When my tag manager and tags showed up yesterday I had to pay the GST/PST and a $10 CanadaPost handling fee.  That's a world better than the way UPS or FedEX rapes us, mind you.

 

With the tag thing, though, you only buy the one tag manager.  After that - yeah - maybe $30-50 CAD for a tag delivered.  I guess time will tell.  The other benefit to the tags (if you call it a benefit) is that they're battery powered so easier to put them in inconspicuous places.  I built a beautiful Nixie tube clock a couple of years back and I can't find a place in the house to put it where I don't have a damned power cord running across a counter top.  Drives me nuts!

 

mark

[jgcharlotte]

Is anybody using any form of luminance/brightness detection in their HA system?  

 

I'd like to determine how bright a room is to decide if lights need to be turned on or off  based on motion.  Rather than deal with sunrise/sunset/time of day it would be ideal if I could just determine how bright the room is with the lights off and use that to decide if the lights should come on.

 

The HSM200 looks like a reasonable fit for this job but it's Zwave which I don't have.  I suppose for under $50 I could add it to my ISY....

 

There doesn't seem to be any environmental sensors for Insteon other than leak/motion/contact.  I was hoping there would be something that might report luminance in lux as a dim level (0-255) or similar.

 

Thanks!

 

mark

 

I've been using the Aeonics Multi-Sensor 6 for a while, have several around, but mostly motion and temperature.

Recently I installed one to do exactly what you are doing.  It is USB powered and works quite well.  I query it every 15 minutes.  Deadband I'm using is 15 lux between ON and OFF and I only have it active during the day so it doesn't try and defeat manual control of the lighting at night.

Edited April 8, 2017 by jgcharlotte

[stusviews]

I'm personally opposed to anything that requires periodic queries to achieve a task. In addition to taking up processing time, however brief, there's the (very) remote possibility of a signal collision.

[MarkJames]

I'm not sure why you polling the device would be any more prone to collisions than the device sending data to you.

 

If anything you polling a device would give you a better chance of scheduling data retrieval when nothing else is going on hence avoiding collisions.

 

When the device sends data to you you have no control over - and it knows nothing of - the current state of your network traffic.  This seemed to be the problem with Insteon motion sensors - flooding your network with signals.

 

 

Regardless - so long as there is some form of queuing going on I don't think it matters one way or the other.

Edited April 6, 2017 by MarkJames

[larryllix]

I prefer a combination of techniques.

 

The best I have seen, is intiated at the remote by only sending exception reports (violates change % rules etc.) with a periodic heartbeat, usually containing a different parameter each time so that all points are absolutely updated once per every N data points x heartbeat period.

 

Next in line, is a system that uses receiver end querying, but the remote does the same thing, sends the exception reports (data changes that violate rule limits) with one additional parameter (in a round robin fashion) each answer. In a more primitive system the additional parameter didn't happen, and the query end had to issue an all data points poll every X time. Then a flood would happen whereas every data absolute in the system was sent.

 

With today's modern networking techniques, collisions are not usually a problem with lower protocol level, check techniques. Our LAN Ethernets live on that technique. Insteon does that fairly well. Insteon has poor checks at the higher levels.

 

eg. ISY send a lamp On, and receives a status confirmation of On. Then what? Maybe the lamp isn't even plughed in or the triac blew last week. This could not be tolerated in an industrial control system.

[MarkJames]

 

eg. ISY send a lamp On, and receives a status confirmation of On. Then what? Maybe the lamp isn't even plughed in or the triac blew last week. This could not be tolerated in an industrial control system.

 

That's why mission critical devices like smoke detectors in monitored security installs have backup checks like relays on the line that indicate failure before the failure wipes you out.  

[builderb]

I've built quite a few things with arduinos and pis - love those little things. I host my web page on a pi and have another one that polls my weather. Quite a few people are using them as HTPC's nowadays running plex, too. I can't help but think that in this case either of those would actually be more expensive than a premade product.

 

Heck, a pi3 is somewhere around $40. Add a power supply and any light sensors you might want, tack on some shipping and you'll probably want an enclosure and you're easily upwards of $60. A CAO tag can be had for $25 and you don't have to code it or build it.

True enough, but a tag manager is $40, so that tag actually costs $65. Toss in the fact that I had a Pi, power supply, case and SD card laying around, and it's not a bad deal.

 

Also, you could get a Pi Zero W for $10. Plenty of horsepower for a sensor reading.

 

Plus there's the whole 'I'm a DIY type'. Telling me I don't have to code it or build it isn't a selling point.