Advice on thermostats

[MarkJames]

So my home  has always had proprietary thermostats that I couldn't control from a HA system (Fujitsu Halcyon and NuHeat).  As of tomorrow, though, that will change in the main living areas.  I'm having a new heat pump installed (Lennox) and that means I can go to a HA controllable thermostat!

 

There are a lot of choices out there - does anyone have any advice as to which way to go?  My stuff is pretty much all insteon and Elk (M1XSP and serial thermostats are lower on my list) but I'm not averse to picking up a Zwave dongle for my 994.  I know nothing about Zigbee

 

Any input is much appreciated.

 

mark

 

[stusviews]

You don't want Zigbee for HAVC control. The Zigbee module for the ISY is primarily for energy management. That leaves Insteon and Z-Wave. I have been happy with Insteon for all my zones, but some posters have been dissatisfied. I recently switched to Ecobee for ease of additional features, for example, occupancy mode sensors.

[MarkJames]

Can you set temperature from within ISY?  Not having one to add I can't see the functionality.

 

Thanks,

 

mark

[stusviews]

I've come to base HA more on our lifestyle and less than the ability to use one interface (which, BTW, was the original goal of my foray into HA more than two decades ago. Actually, my original foray was 60 some years ago, but it came to fruition only within the last few decades.).

 

IMHO, HA is primarily for convenience and secondarily, as an energy saver, in any case, the less effort and the more energy saved the better the system (=a group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole.). Decor matters, too.

 

I do have a portal and a bunch of Echos/Dots and a couple of Smartphones (parts of the system), as well as three HVAC zones (zones include more than one room) The Insteon thermostats have several abilities that the Ecobees don't, in particular, being able to turn a zone on or off or to change the mode on any zone (Yes, on rare occasions we have had heating in one zone and cooling in another. Temperature swings on those few days/hours made Auto mode irreconcilable).

 

We are about equally often in only one or two of the three zones during the day or out dining and/or cavorting at night, so the most used property of our HVAC is the ability to automatically turn zones on and/or off. That's where the Ecobee shines.

 

We have Ecobee sensors scattered that are linked to the thermostat that control those rooms. They are more than just an occupancy/motion sensor. Each is also temperature sensor whose reading is averaged in with other sensors linked to that thermostat. Each sensor can also be included/excluded based on any of the schedules you set up.

 

We use Life360 and a ready made IFTTT recipe to automatically turn off the zones after we leave and the two main zones before we arrive--automatically. (Actually, the recipe turns of the zones when the last one leaves and on as the first one returns.)

 

Caveat #1. If you use voice (Ecobee skill for Echo) to change the temperature, then it will not resume the schedule at all. I spoke and wrote to Ecobee support and all they did was confirm my finding. A search revealed an Ecobee created IFTTT recipe that resumes programming at a specific time (e.g., bedtime).

 

Caveat #2. Life360 allows you to track the location of anyone in your circle. We have no difficulty with that--at all

[Bumbershoot]

If you're not averse to running Alpha firmware on your ISY (version > 5.0.4), then there are more options with Nodelink and Polyglot node servers.  Running Polyglot, you can directly control Nest thermostats (which I'm using), and with Nodelink you have the ability to control at least three options: Venstar, Ecobee or Honeywell TCC.  The Nest (see screenshot of Nest as a Polyglot node) operates just fine for me, and it plays well with Alexa.  Were I to replace the Nest, I would likely go with Ecobee (I like the remote sensors) and control it using my ISY and Nodelink.

 

I also installed two Insteon thermostats at a relatives house, and they've been entirely issue free (they've been installed about a year).

 

All that said, I've had no problems at all with my Z-Wave devices, once I established a sufficient Z-Wave mesh.  There are loads of Z-Wave thermostats (at least on Amazon), if you're willing to build the network.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[MarkJames]

Thanks guys,

 

When this heatpump goes in (today, I hope) I will have 3 different heating systems in the house and only one that I can deal with remotely.  

 

I have in floor electric heating in my kitchen and living room that are wifi controllable with Nuheat but their system is not accessible to IFTTT or any HA controllers (yet anyways).  I don't care too much about this - the reaction time on floor heat is so very slow that it doesn't lend itself to any kind of occupancy control - more like a set and forget or disable while you're away.

 

My kids rooms (they've moved away now), master bedroom, and media room are all on a Fujitsu DC motor heat pump system with individual room thermostats.  These do some sort of proprietary communication with the Fujitsu master controller so they are not able to be controlled with my HA system either.

 

That leaves the main living areas which will have the new heat pump that I can control however I want.  

 

Occupancy isn't really a big deal for me and the heatpump is a single zone so the Ecobee might not be right. For occupancy I've set up my system to watch for the wifi signal and bluetooth signals on both my phone and my wife's.  Using that and Tasker, I set flags based on whether we're coming home or leaving based.  All I really need to be able to do is turn the system on/off, *maybe* adjust setpoints, and possibly adjust the schedule if we're travelling.

 

I've heard good things about zwave but if I got a zwave thermostat it would be the only zwave device I have.  What kind of functionality do the insteon ones have?

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

You might want to look here for some information on Insteon thermostat compatibility with your heat pump.  The Insteon thermostats that I installed are not on an ISY, but an Insteon Hub.  The screenshot shows how a thermostat appears in the iOS Insteon app.  Note however that this screenshot is from a thermostat that is in a home with a furnace and air conditioning, not a heat pump.

 

I don't recall if the Insteon thermostat will control a whole home humidifier, though it certainly reports humidity.

 

EDIT: The Insteon thermostat is an RF only device IIRC, so you may need a dual-band Insteon device somewhere in the vicinity.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[MarkJames]

It looks like I'm compatible - I just don't know what the functionality is from a HA controller without going through a cloud service.  Setpoint?  Schedule change?  heat/cool mode?  System on/off?  setback?

 

How much fuss is polyglot and nodelink?  Nest are pretty cool - I'm just not sure how much more effort I want to put into this.

 

mark

Edited April 11, 2017 by MarkJames

[Bumbershoot]

The Nest is nice, and it has a high WAF, so I'm happy. Polyglot isn't bad to set up, but you'll need another device to run it on. Currently, I'm running it on an Rpi, but it runs well on my Mac mini. I recommend firmware version 5.0.9 if you're interested in that route. I have no real issues with the Nest at all.

[PurdueGuy]

I'll voice my support for the Ecobee3.  I've deployed 4 remote sensors around the house.

 

However, there is no local API for the Ecobee.  It requires a cloud connection.  Ugh. 

[MarkJames]

I'll voice my support for the Ecobee3.  I've deployed 4 remote sensors around the house.

 

However, there is no local API for the Ecobee.  It requires a cloud connection.  Ugh. 

Do you have 4 zones?  Or are you using them to control fewer zones?

 

mark

[PurdueGuy]

I have a 2-story home but all one zone.   Don't ask me why!

 

So depending on the schedule, I have certain sensors in the calculation.

 

Home:

  - Builtin sensor and living room

Nighttime:

  - master bedroom only OR
  - master bedroom and guest bedroom

Morning:

  - master bedroom only OR
  - master bedroom and guest bedroom

Away:

  - all sensors

 

Then I have a "run blower" program is the upstairs and downstairs temps are too far apart (and I am home).

[MarkJames]

Oh ok - that makes sense.  My home used to do that too - 2 stories - all one zone on hot water baseboard.  I broke it up into 3 zones using zone valves but then found that the original owner had run the pipes for the hot water up and down and back and forth so some zones had a room upstairs and a room downstairs on one zone.  It was a bit of a mess.  We've since changed to a mini split system after that one failed.

 

I wish manufacturers would get away from this cloud thing and give us all APIs.  

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

I'll voice my support for the Ecobee3.  I've deployed 4 remote sensors around the house.

 

However, there is no local API for the Ecobee.  It requires a cloud connection.  Ugh. 

PurdueGuy,

 

I apologize if I'm intruding or suggesting the obvious, but I notice in your signature that you're using running DSCLink on a Rpi.  If/when you run ISY firmware > 5.0.4, you would be able to run io_guys Nodelink on your Rpi, allowing local data for both DSC and your Ecobee with one node server.  The benefit may be that there's no more reliance on the cloud.  I have neither DSC nor Ecobee, so I can't speak as to how well they work, but Nodelink seems rock solid in my Rpi.

 

Edit: added screenshot showing Nodelink supported devices.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[PurdueGuy]

PurdueGuy,

 

I apologize if I'm intruding or suggesting the obvious, but I notice in your signature that you're using running DSCLink on a Rpi.  If/when you run ISY firmware > 5.0.4, you would be able to run io_guys Nodelink on your Rpi, allowing local data for both DSC and your Ecobee with one node server.  The benefit may be that there's no more reliance on the cloud.  I have neither DSC nor Ecobee, so I can't speak as to how well they work, but Nodelink seems rock solid in my Rpi.

 

Edit: added screenshot showing Nodelink supported devices.

 

Oh I have been running Nodelink ever since 5.0.2 or earlier.  I almost never update my signature!  (Edit: I just did!)

 

However, Ecobee has no local API (aside from HomeKit), so it MUST be accessed via the cloud.

Edited April 12, 2017 by PurdueGuy

[Bumbershoot]

Thanks, I'd never poked around in the Ecobee developer site before.  I see that all API calls use:

https://api.ecobee.com

That's too bad, though it might make their firmware easier to maintain and update.

 

I appreciate the info...

[MarkJames]

Can I ask a dumb question that I should probably spend some time researching but I'm up to my elbows in alligators and it's easier to just ask?

 

What's nodelink do and why might I want to use it?

 

Thanks!

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

Can I ask a dumb question that I should probably spend some time researching but I'm up to my elbows in alligators and it's easier to just ask?

 

What's nodelink do and why might I want to use it?

 

Thanks!

 

mark

 

Nodelink provides devices, with properties, to the ISY that you can use in programs, scenes, etc.  It is similar to Polyglot in usage on the ISY, though Polyglot requires Python and Nodelink requires the mono libraries (on an Rpi).  The Nodelink binary is a Windows executable (Nodelink.exe), and the mono libraries provide a Windows run-time environment on Unix variant hosts. 

 

IMHO both Polyglot and Nodelink provide similar functionality to the ISY by working with the new Node Server functionality built into the 5.x.x firmware series -- they extend your ISY to interact with devices that the ISY wouldn't otherwise support.  You are no longer limited to Insteon devices, Z-Wave devices, ELK devices or devices that you can interact with using network resources.  I think it's huge for the ISY to have this, and I also think the work of the Nodelink and Polyglot developers is equally huge in keeping this platform relevant in the HA marketplace.

 

I've attached a screenshot of the node server directory on my ISY.  Polyglot provides: Hue, Nest, Sonos, IP Camera and LIFX control.  Nodelink provides: RainMachine and ISY Data.

 

Simply having better and precise control of my irrigation (RainMachine) has saved enough money (water's expensive where I live) to pay for at least pieces of my HA habit.  The developers of Nodelink and Polyglot are unpaid, as far as I know, other then through voluntary PayPal donations.

 

I hope this helps...

Edited April 12, 2017 by Bumbershoot

[MarkJames]

That looks very interesting.  You can control your Sonos from your HA system?  That'd be worth it for me alone!

 

How do I go about getting the upgraded firmware?  I only see the 4.5 line of firmware in the relevant thread?  

 

mark

[PurdueGuy]

That looks very interesting.  You can control your Sonos from your HA system?  That'd be worth it for me alone!

 

How do I go about getting the upgraded firmware?  I only see the 4.5 line of firmware in the relevant thread?  

 

mark

 

Remember it's Alpha firmware.  http://forum.universal-devices.com/forum/108-50/

 

However, I've been running it for some time, and no real issues.

[MarkJames]

Thanks - I'll order another Raspi and give it a whirl.  Gotta get to it before the spring weather arrives up here in the great white North and I can get outside finally!

 

I ended up ordering the 3 sensor ecobee bundle.  It supported my heatpump with auxiliary heat and - surprisingly - it's made here in Canada!

 

mark

[Bumbershoot]

That looks very interesting.  You can control your Sonos from your HA system?  That'd be worth it for me alone!

 

How do I go about getting the upgraded firmware?  I only see the 4.5 line of firmware in the relevant thread?  

 

mark

 

You can also control Sonos using network resources.  I find that using the node server to do the ordinary stuff is quite a bit easier to set up than network resources, though the possibilities are more limited.  The screenshot shows your options when using the Sonos node server.

[larryllix]

The Venstar was the only stat that gives out it's API for local (no cloud required) access.

 

I like the Venstar T7800 for access via NodeLink but it seems to have a much more amateurish style than the Nest and Ecobee3. Greener grass?

 

It's good that you chose a unit wth WiFi as then you are independent no matter what happens to your HA choices, down the road. You are dependent on a cloud interface but reading io_guy's comments, the ecobee3 is cleaner and more desirable that the Venstar. Not sure what aspects are making this opinion but he is the one that interfaced to them for us ISY users.

 

Reading and watching reports about stats, they all have one problem or the other. Two of my son's have Nests and based on their praises of them I am glad I didn't go near them. Ecobee has contact burn out problems with A/C that has too heavy of a contactor. Venstar has a wandering sensor that I have to recalibrate about twice per year. I am very sensitive to 0.5C changes, though.

 

I will be interested in hearing how you like the stat and may quiz you donw the road. I found the information on stats very bad and boxes contain nothing but "dreamware", where you imagine all the cools things but will never know until using one for three seasons.

 

Even when contacting tech support I found the tech didn't know the difference between calibration stability and deadband hysteresis. Tech toy company gone HVAC?

[MarkJames]

I'll let you know how they work out.  While I'd rather control them from my HA system I suppose the sensors in the different areas provide an 'out of the box' solution that is probably as elegant as anything I'd write after bumbling through it for a while.   

 

I have my hands full with other HA issues right now so I'm not inclined to pile even more on  

 

As it is my floor heat thermostats from Nuheat allow me to control them over the web but only through the mfr website.  At least it fulfills my needs when it comes to travel/warming up the house before we get home.

 

As of 5 minutes ago my new heat pump has just been powered up for the first time - it's wonderful!

 

mark

[stusviews]

The Ecobee3 does not require the cloud. All of its features, except remote control, are available locally.