current state wrong

[Sub-Routine]

It is interesting you bring up the extended messages. Was this something introduced sometime between v2.6.7 and 2.7? If there is a potential relationship between extended messages and robustness of communication, perhaps the recent ISY software upgrades had an indirect affect on my reliability (or, more accurately, revealed deficiencies in my electrical system).

 

Smarthome introduced i2 between 2.6.7 and 2.7. We are trying to catch up. Not all the older devices repeat i2 commands so that results in some issues.

 

Also, I understood that the "automatic" message configuration used standard message length for all but a few select devices such as the remote control. Perhaps I should choose only I1 messaging options for more robust communication if the extended messaging is less tolerant of noise or interference, and that there is no benefit in my application.

 

No, leave it on Automatic. We hope to remove this option. It's a testing function.

 

Regardless, for now, I am still hopefull that tightening up a few wall plug and switch wires and wirenuts improved communication. So far, so good. Everything went off last night and came on this evening. It has been a while since that happened.

 

Sounds good to me! I think I have an InlineLinc that needs the twister. Outdoor box, I might cut and strip the wires.

 

Rand

[oberkc]

I have had a chance, now, to continue to troubleshoot. Tightening the physical connections to a couple of suspect switches and plugs did not solve the problem.

 

I started the painful process of trying to identify devices in the house that may be contributing to communication problems. I unplugged all TVs, X-10 modules, wall power supplies, etc. I also unplugged the washer and dryer, as well as the X-10 bridge at the dryter 220V outlet.

 

I also moved one of the two primary access point to a plug physically closer to the panel. After confirming that the second access point (adjacent to the PLM) was on the opposite leg, I installed access points three and four at locations dictated by the insteon remotes without regard for which leg they were on.

 

All CFLs remained, but few were on.

 

At one point, I was able to achieve reliable communication based on the ISY scene test results. All scenes appeared to operate properly. Then a few stopped. Perhaps an appliance came on? Perhaps it was the furnace?

 

I started adding back a few devices. No single device appeared to create a problem, but when all were put back, scene tests were less than 100% passed. I understand that that is not necessarily a guarantee of failure, but it appeared to be evidence that the composite of electrical devices throughout the house contribute to some level of signal loss....sufficient, perhaps, to reduce insteon reliability to the level of minor frustration.

 

I have also tried the "compare" function on a few of the devices. I did notice some mis-matches on one device, and another that appeared to match up pretty well. Unfortunately, that function takes a lot of time on my system, and to perform that test on all would consume hours.

 

I added a few seconds pause between program commands. Perhaps there were some communication clashes. After all this, I will observe the system performance over the next few weeks and see if anything improves.

 

I sure wish there was a reasonable way to measure power signal noise and signal strength, and the effect of adding and removing devices. The trial-and-error method is not very efficient. I sure don't see myself buying on o-scope but perhaps I will find other options.

[IndyMike]

Hello oberkc,

 

Trying to track down general system noise/absorption can be very frustrating when there doesn't appear to be a single offender. At times the offender is overlooked since it can be as innocuous as a cell phone charger. At other times it can be the "sum" of various offenders causing a problem. Prior to getting into the manner of troubleshooting, a few more questions:

 

1) How large is your home/how many levels?

2) When was the home constructed and (if older) has it been rewired?

3) You mentioned an X10 signal bridge. Is this a passive signal bridge or an active repeater?

4) How reliable are your X10 communications?

5) Do you have a boosterlinc or any boosterlinc enabled X10 switches in the system?

 

If your X10 coupler is passive, it should help your Insteon signals cross the phase as well. If it's and active coupler, it may or may not help (many active couplers contain a tuned circuit for passive coupling as well).

 

I have also tried the "compare" function on a few of the devices. I did notice some mis-matches on one device, and another that appeared to match up pretty well. Unfortunately, that function takes a lot of time on my system, and to perform that test on all would consume hours.

Prior to troubleshooting, please revisit the compare function - if a device isn't programmed properly it can't respond properly.

 

For troubleshooting your system, I would recommend simplifying the configuration to get to a system that is repeatable. A system that isn't repeatable is extremely difficult to analyze. Assuming that your X10 coupler is passive:

1) If you haven't already, create a whole house scene that you can use for the scene test.

2) Remove all of your accesspoints (this is the simplification part).

3) Retry the scene test and try to isolate failures to specific circuits in your home. Note that Lamplincs may not respond if their load is disconnected or turned off.

 

The gist of the above is the isolation of problem circuits that repeatably cause errors for your devices. Once a circuit is identified, try to locate problem devices or bad connections. If you have "spare" Lamplincs, these can be used as plug in repeaters on problem circuits. Note that for this to be effective you really need to understand how the circuit is physically wired (plugging a repeater in "upstream" of a problem area can help, downstream may actually make the problem worse).

 

IM

[MikeB]

If you have "spare" Lamplincs, these can be used as plug in repeaters on problem circuits. Note that for this to be effective you really need to understand how the circuit is physically wired (plugging a repeater in "upstream" of a problem area can help, downstream may actually make the problem worse).

 

 

Hey Mike -

 

This comment really interests me. Could you explain in more detail why it matters? I assume "upstream" means (panel > device > repeater) while "downstream" would mean (panel > repeater > device)?

[IndyMike]

Mike,

 

The best way I can do this is with a sketch. In configuration 1, we have a receiver 100 feet from the panel with a noise source/absorber in the middle.

In this configuration, the distributed Inductance/Capacitance is reducing the signal available from the panel. It's possible that the receiver won't be able to hear the communication due to the noise/absorption.

 

1) Panel ---------50ft--------Noise/absorber--------50ft----------receiver

 

Adding a second receiver at the end of the line adds additional loading. If the first receiver can't hear the communication from the panel, chances are the second won't either (you've made matters worse).

 

 

2) Panel ---------50ft--------Noise/absorber--------50ft----------2xreceiver

 

Adding a receiver midstream can help by repeating the panel communication. Since the line length is reduced it can "hear" the panel communication.

 

3) Panel ------50ft--------receiver/Noise/absorber--------50ft----------receiver

 

Notes:

1)the above is a very simplistic example intended to show that it makes a difference where a noise source/absorber is on the circuit.

2) When looking at the circuit layout, you need to consider both communication directions.

3) My experience is that it takes more than just line length to sufficiently reduce the Insteon signal to the point where it can't be received. Different combinations of line length/noise/absorption/bad connections are required.

[MikeB]

Thanks for the details Mike, makes sense now. For some reason I had in my mind that your original post was using an AccessPoint as a repeater. It makes more sense now that I've re-read it and you suggested a LampLinc.

[oberkc]

1) How large is your home/how many levels?

2) When was the home constructed and (if older) has it been rewired?

3) You mentioned an X10 signal bridge. Is this a passive signal bridge or an active repeater?

4) How reliable are your X10 communications?

5) Do you have a boosterlinc or any boosterlinc enabled X10 switches in the system?

1. About 2700 sq feet, plus basement....Story and a half

2. about 1992

3. Active Repeater

4. X10 has been problematic over the few years I have been fooling around with this sort of stuff. Some days were better than others.

5. No boosterlinc that I know of

Prior to troubleshooting, please revisit the compare function - if a device isn't programmed properly it can't respond properly.

Will revisit.

1) If you haven't already, create a whole house scene that you can use for the scene test.

I am not sure that I understand a "whole house" scene. Is this a scene that contains all the devices that I own? Once done, I assume I am looking for consistently bad actors via the scene test, which would in turn point to a bad circuits?

 

Right now, the evening program ran without fault. Also everything turned off last night. Two-in-a-row! I am trying to balance the amount of effort I want to put into this with tolerance towards a few missed commands. An interesting thing happened the other night, though, when a light which was previously off at night was on in the morning. Yet, there are all commands overnight are to turn things off and I have a backup program which turns the whole "network" off. Missed commands are one thing. Wrong responses (or random occurances) are another.

 

I will keep trying, but weather is warming and the yard work is backing up.

[IndyMike]

1. About 2700 sq feet, plus basement....Story and a half

2. about 1992

3. Active Repeater

4. X10 has been problematic over the few years I have been fooling around with this sort of stuff. Some days were better than others.

5. No boosterlinc that I know of

I'd call 1992 recent construction for electrical. You don't have arc-fault interrupters (that's probably a good thing) but other than that, you're close to current code. Our homes are similar in both size and layout. I'd imagine 200A service with the panel in the basement (possibly a tag on panel).

 

1) If you haven't already, create a whole house scene that you can use for the scene test.

I am not sure that I understand a "whole house" scene. Is this a scene that contains all the devices that I own? Once done, I assume I am looking for consistently bad actors via the scene test, which would in turn point to a bad circuits?

 

Correct - Include everything except Remotlincs, Motion sensors, Controlincs (these can't be responders in a scene). Since the Scene test turns devices OFF, you're not risking waking the family in the early morning (when I tend to play with the system).

 

Right now, the evening program ran without fault. Also everything turned off last night. Two-in-a-row! I am trying to balance the amount of effort I want to put into this with tolerance towards a few missed commands. An interesting thing happened the other night, though, when a light which was previously off at night was on in the morning. Yet, there are all commands overnight are to turn things off and I have a backup program which turns the whole "network" off. Missed commands are one thing. Wrong responses (or random occurances) are another.

 

I will keep trying, but weather is warming and the yard work is backing up.

 

What type of load do you have on your problem light? I've recently been testing noise injected by CFL's. I'm using both Neptune dimmable and Sylvania non-dimmable. The dimmable version appear significantly worse in terms of noise (not causing problems as yet). Does this light respond properly to the Scene test when ON?

 

I understand completely about the yard work. I'm trying to finish my taxes this weekend so I can play catch-up outside.

 

IM

[oberkc]

I'd imagine 200A service with the panel in the basement (possibly a tag on panel).

Yes, 200 amp service with two spare slot for breakers.

Correct - Include everything except Remotlincs, Motion sensors, Controlincs (these can't be responders in a scene).

Of course, if I am able to add all devices to a given scene (test or otherwise), that alone is some indication that things are working. One of my indications of communication problems is the inability to add devices to scenes.

What type of load do you have on your problem light?

The two devices giving me the most consistent problems are incadescent. I have not been satisfied with dimmable florescent. The problems with these two modules have been the inability to add to scenes, failure to go on, failure to go off, going on when they should be going off, and scene test failures. Of course, not all these problems are 100% consistent. Sometimes they work.

I understand completely about the yard work. I'm trying to finish my taxes this weekend so I can play catch-up outside.

I did my taxes a month ago and recieved a refund in a couple weeks. One can now do taxes and e-file for free, regardless of income. What a concept....our government tries to encourage e-file, but up to now, charged for the privelege.

 

Enjoy!

[NewTech]

And I guess this turned into Insteon Communication Issues, but...

 

It does seem odd the X10 works well and the Insteon does not. My experience has been the opposite.

 

Rand

 

Ditto on X-10 working better than Insteon. I too have experienced this. I'm still using X-10 in parts of our home as I fade over to Insteon. My X-10 modules RARELY fail to respond but Insteon modules are really giving me headaches especially when controlled directly from the ISY's GUI. (Note: My X-10 modules are not included in any Insteon programs because I'm still using another software package to control them.) My Insteon devices will respond about 98% of the time when truned on individually with a mouse click in the GUI but that drops down to about 40-50% if I try to activate a scene from the GUI by mouse clicking the scene's ON button. And, the real issue is that it is RARELY the same modules that refuse to turn on or off. About 90% of the time at least one module will NOT respond to the mouse click and it usually requires several mouse clicks to get it to turn on or off.

 

This has become a very frustrating issue for me. Tonight I plan to move the PLM closer to the circuit breaker panel but if this fixes the problem I don't know how I'll get the PLM's data cable to the PLM's new location because we're on a slab and and there is another condo above us!

 

Wireless PLM?!?!?!

[MikeB]

My X-10 modules RARELY fail to respond but Insteon modules are really giving me headaches especially when controlled directly from the ISY's GUI. (Note: My X-10 modules are not included in any Insteon programs because I'm still using another software package to control them.)

 

Do you have any X10 BoosterLincs or other X10-type amplifiers (perhaps an active phase coupler)?

[NewTech]

My X-10 modules RARELY fail to respond but Insteon modules are really giving me headaches especially when controlled directly from the ISY's GUI. (Note: My X-10 modules are not included in any Insteon programs because I'm still using another software package to control them.)

 

Do you have any X10 BoosterLincs or other X10-type amplifiers (perhaps an active phase coupler)?

 

I did have a phase coupler on our dryer before switching over to Insteon but removed it since all of my remaining X-10 modules are in our bedroom areas which is where the TW-523 interface is located. So no signal problems now or before.

 

Mike R.

[MikeB]

I can say that in a typical install, Insteon is far more reliable than X10 in my experience. The exception I've seen is if there are specific types of X10 devices still installed that can interfere with Insteon, which is why I asked.

 

Unfortunately, I've also seen bad Insteon devices affect the reliability of devices around them. Not a fun thing to troubleshoot.

[oberkc]

While I started this post asking about ISY states, it has morphed to a general troubleshooting discussion and more about the insteon communication problems, rather than problems with the ISY.

 

I have not spent a lot of time on my system over the last few months until tonight, when I started some upgrades, adding a few more switches and modules. I continued to experience communication problems adding devices to scenes, but was ultimately successful by moving access points around to be closer to the affected devices during the scene setup. While I continue to consider this a patch, I have not been able to identify or eliminate any single device which causes problems.

 

I have come to suspect my case of communication problems may be a composite of many devices. I had A LOT of flourescent lights on early, and could never complete a scene. Turning them all off helped. Having only one or two on does not seem to cause a problem.

 

I was also hoping that the removal of some lutron electronic dimmers and replacing them with insteon would improve communications. I had earlier noticed that the lutron dimmers would sometimes react (blink, flash) to x-10 or insteon commands, so I thought it was possible that they generated or absorbed signals. So far, I have seen no improvement after removing two. I have two more to go. Perhaps removing those last two will help.

 

For now, I will continue to live with less than 99% reliability. It is still better than flipping switches.

[NewTech]

 

For now, I will continue to live with less than 99% reliability. It is still better than flipping switches.

 

I, too, had a good deal of time tonight to try some things with the ISY while trying to correct some communications issues. I discovered that moving my PLM away from my desktop computer greatly improved communication. Also, moving the access points around also helped. I plan to leave the PLM in its new (but temporary) location to be sure it continues to work. I'd say that my reliability has improved from 60% to about 90% - 95%. I don't want to settle for even 99% reliability so I plan to add additional access points in the near future. I also have the leftover X-10 TW-523 interface in my system but only to control some master bedroom lights while I await more Insteon modules. I'm wondering if this is causing problems because sometimes the lamp(s) in the bedroom turn on after an ISY command? It's getting late now but I plan to try unplugging it tomorrow.

 

Mike

[oberkc]

I have yet to try the trick of moving the PLM away from the computer. Unfortunately, that is not practical and will require some re-wiring. Perhaps someday. Maybe I should try a long extension cord to test it out. All my computer stuff are on one of those noise filters, but it may not be enough. I have a lot of things near the computer, including many power supplies (but no UPS).

 

I have also moved around the access points and confirmed all are the same version (1.0). I cannot find any combination that improves performance.

 

I also have some residual X-10 stuff. I have a dryer coupler and an RF interface for some motion sensors. Experiments have lead me to believe this is not a problem.

 

Like you, Mike, I have near perfect reliability when toggling scenes from insteon switches. Also, none of my devices fail all the time, leading me to the conclusion that the programming is there correctly, but they are just having communication troubles.

 

Tonight, I removed the last of my lutron electronic dimmers and replaced them with insteon. That went without problem, including programming and insertion into scenes. Unfortunately, I did not notice an improvement in communication, as evidence by the ISY-99 scene test.

 

I also added a few additional plug-in modules, hoping that the continued addition of devices improved overall communication. While this hasn't been enough in the past to solve my communication problems, I think (after just a half-hour or so of experimenting) that these latest modules may be helping.

 

What continues to puzzle me is 1) communication between insteon modules appears good, 2) insteon modules are supposed to repeat commands, yet 3) the ISY cannot reach some modules, even though it can reach an adjacent one, which should be repeating the commands. Clearly, there is a level of understanding that I don't pocess.

 

I also wish I knew how to interpret the flashing LEDs on insteon keypads. I know this is some type of error and assume it is related to communication, but I wish I could isolate the exact communication problem. This would sure help with troubleshooting.

 

Speaking of troubleshooting, that, in the end, is the part of insteon that I consider most frustrating. I can find no way to positively identify problems. Instead, troubleshooting is trial-and-error, and often not conclusive.

 

Still, it is fun and useful to folks like me who don't mind tinkering a bit. I am not sure that I could recommend it to those who aren't willing to play around a bit. Even with the problems, I consider it a benefit to my life. I cannot always say that about technology.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello oberkc,

 

I am very much aware of all the trials and tribulations that sometimes one has to go just to get the system working. But, when the system starts working then it will continue to work.

 

I can tell you three reasons why signals may get to one switch and not the adjacent one:

1. They are on two different phases in which case signals are not going to be repeated

2. Loose neutral wire ... this I've seen a lot

3. The device itself

 

I would start by switching the devices' locations and see if the problem moves to the other one. If the problem moves with the switch, then it's the switch itself. If they both start working, then it's the wiring (neutral wire). Otherwise, I would think they are on multiple phases.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[MikeB]

A couple more notes:

 

What continues to puzzle me is 1) communication between insteon modules appears good, 2) insteon modules are supposed to repeat commands, yet 3) the ISY cannot reach some modules, even though it can reach an adjacent one, which should be repeating the commands. Clearly, there is a level of understanding that I don't pocess.

 

Keep in mind that signals don't repeat forever. Signals are repeated up to 3 times, each time reducing the remaining "hop" counts. Once the hop counts have expired, there are no more repeats. If a signal is not reaching a particular device, it means the 3 hop counts are not enough.

 

I also wish I knew how to interpret the flashing LEDs on insteon keypads. I know this is some type of error and assume it is related to communication, but I wish I could isolate the exact communication problem. This would sure help with troubleshooting.

 

After a button is pressed, it sends a group command (say, turn lights on). Any device that is a member of that scene that hears the command acts upon that command. THEN, the originating device sends out individual commands to each of the members of that scene to ensure they heard the 1st command. The members that hear that indivdiual command respond confirming the command. If one of those members doesn't respond for some reason, the KPL will flash.

 

So, if you're getting flashing, it means 1 of 2 things:

- you have a communication issue between your KPL and one of the responding devices

- you have a link to a device that is no longer there (unplugged) or otherwise not responding

[NewTech]

I have yet to try the trick of moving the PLM away from the computer. Unfortunately, that is not practical and will require some re-wiring. Perhaps someday. Maybe I should try a long extension cord to test it out. All my computer stuff are on one of those noise filters, but it may not be enough. I have a lot of things near the computer, including many power supplies (but no UPS)..

I will say that moving my PLM was the single most improvement I made to my system. Although I still have it plugged into a fifty-foot extension cord that runs down the hall out to the great room I am in a better position to move my PLM to that location because our computer is on the other side of the wall. All I will need to do is run the data cable through the wall through a hole that is already there for speaker wires. Right now my PLM is actually sitting on top of my desktop computer with an access point plugged into the pass through outlet. Be careful if/when you move your PLM if you have your access point plugged into it because you could wind up having both access points on the same phase.

 

I have also moved around the access points and confirmed all are the same version (1.0). I cannot find any combination that improves performance.

 

I also have some residual X-10 stuff. I have a dryer coupler and an RF interface for some motion sensors. Experiments have lead me to believe this is not a problem.

I have removed my dryer coupler, tested my system and noticed somewhat lowered response issues so I plugged it back in and I'll probably just leave it there "just because"!

 

Like you, Mike, I have near perfect reliability when toggling scenes from insteon switches. Also, none of my devices fail all the time, leading me to the conclusion that the programming is there correctly, but they are just having communication troubles.

This is EXACTLY what I have been experiencing. It never seems to be the same devices that do not respond from the ISY. This is really what prompted me to move the PLM, which greatly improved communications

 

What continues to puzzle me is 1) communication between insteon modules appears good, 2) insteon modules are supposed to repeat commands, yet 3) the ISY cannot reach some modules, even though it can reach an adjacent one, which should be repeating the commands. Clearly, there is a level of understanding that I don't pocess.

You and me both. I am by no means a computer whiz but usually don't have a problem understanding this stuff. I am the lighting director at our church and our system is 10 times more complicated than Insteon and I seemed to pick it up right from the get-go! If the folks at Universal Devices and SmartHome weren't so helpful I'd surely be returning all of my devices. If it wasn't for their dedication to assisting me on an individual basis I would probably be going to my large box of retired X-10 equipment and begin using that system again. I have gained a much better understanding of the whole Insteon process and the ISY and I can now safely say that I feel my system, although small, is beginning to meet my expectations.

 

Speaking of troubleshooting, that, in the end, is the part of insteon that I consider most frustrating. I can find no way to positively identify problems. Instead, troubleshooting is trial-and-error, and often not conclusive.

 

Still, it is fun and useful to folks like me who don't mind tinkering a bit. I am not sure that I could recommend it to those who aren't willing to play around a bit. Even with the problems, I consider it a benefit to my life. I cannot always say that about technology.

It is fun and useful to folks like us. I just wish my wife was more tolerant of my hobby. She is tired of me complaining all the time about this not working today but yesterday it worked fine!

 

This is a very interesting forum topic and I hve gained a lot from it! Thanks to all who have contributed!

 

Mike R.

[oberkc]

Thanks to all for the continued response.

 

I can tell you three reasons why signals may get to one switch and not the adjacent one:

1. They are on two different phases in which case signals are not going to be repeated

2. Loose neutral wire ... this I've seen a lot

3. The device itself

 

Regarding phase, I have maintained access points on both phases. I don't know what else to do. Access point indications (LED) is as expected per instructions.

 

Regarding loose neutral, I have tightened a few without improvement. But this gets back to the lack of troubleshooting....there is no way that I can think of to identify such a problem. I suppose one could simply remove every device in the house and check/tighten, but that does not sound reasonable to me. I must admit to being a little concerned about the types of plugs I am finding....those kind with the back-stabbed connections. I wonder if that is a problem. No way to know, I guess.

 

Regarding the device itself, I originally moved the offending devices to the same circuit (plug, even) as the PLM and all appear to work normally at that point. One consistently-troublesome device, however, is wired in. I may try moving an access point close by. Given that all devices appear to work at least some of the time, I have been assuming that the devices themselves have not failed. Perhaps this is not a good assumption?

 

Keep in mind that signals don't repeat forever. Signals are repeated up to 3 times, each time reducing the remaining "hop" counts. Once the hop counts have expired, there are no more repeats. If a signal is not reaching a particular device, it means the 3 hop counts are not enough.

 

Yes, I think I understand to that level. Perhaps my point was not clear. In my example, I have a switchlink that works near perfectly. It responds to ISY, and controls a module. I conclude that communication to this device must be good, and communication between this device and the module must be good. However, when ISY attempts to turn on this same module, it is not always successful, even though (based on my earlier conclusions) that communication to the switch is good, that communication between the switch and module is good (with the switch repeating the commands), and that communication between the switch and module is good. Perhaps it is hop counts or something. This was just not what I was expecting, especially in light of the claim that additional devices improves communication.

 

After a button is pressed, it sends a group command (say, turn lights on). Any device that is a member of that scene that hears the command acts upon that command. THEN, the originating device sends out individual commands to each of the members of that scene to ensure they heard the 1st command. The members that hear that indivdiual command respond confirming the command. If one of those members doesn't respond for some reason, the KPL will flash.

Thanks for the explanation. Is the ISY considered part of the scene? I assume not, but sometimes I am not so sure. I still don't have the ability to identify which of the members is not responding. All I know is that something somewhere is not responding or coummunicating. I find it difficult to reach any conclusions from this. Especially when all the devices (not counting the ISY) in the scene appear to respond.

 

Per the suggestions of many, I have tried running the computer from an extension cord in an attempt to get it away (electrically speaking) from the ISY. I see no improvement.

 

Oh well...I will keep fooling around with things. Thanks to all who are offering suggestions and responses. I apologize for not being sufficiently clear on some of these things.

 

Ken

[IndyMike]

Regarding loose neutral, I have tightened a few without improvement. But this gets back to the lack of troubleshooting....there is no way that I can think of to identify such a problem. I suppose one could simply remove every device in the house and check/tighten, but that does not sound reasonable to me. I must admit to being a little concerned about the types of plugs I am finding....those kind with the back-stabbed connections. I wonder if that is a problem. No way to know, I guess.

 

This is probably OK as long as the hot and neutral are wire nutted in the box. If the circuit is "daisy chained" (4 push in connections at the back of the outlet) I would suggest rewiring. I don't believe this is code - the outlet is designed to provide current to it's output terminals, not be a current "link" in a circuit.

 

Yes, I think I understand to that level. Perhaps my point was not clear. In my example, I have a switchlink that works near perfectly. It responds to ISY, and controls a module. I conclude that communication to this device must be good, and communication between this device and the module must be good. However, when ISY attempts to turn on this same module, it is not always successful, even though (based on my earlier conclusions) that communication to the switch is good, that communication between the switch and module is good (with the switch repeating the commands), and that communication between the switch and module is good. Perhaps it is hop counts or something. This was just not what I was expecting, especially in light of the claim that additional devices improves communication.

 

Unfortunately, just because device A can talk with device B it doesn't mean that the reverse is true. The reason is that noise sources propagate differently depending on their frequency. A noise source close to device B might prevent it from hearing device A. Device A can hear device B because the noise is attenuated by the length of the powerline and the other devices connected.

 

Thanks for the explanation. Is the ISY considered part of the scene? I assume not, but sometimes I am not so sure. I still don't have the ability to identify which of the members is not responding. All I know is that something somewhere is not responding or coummunicating. I find it difficult to reach any conclusions from this. Especially when all the devices (not counting the ISY) in the scene appear to respond.

 

Assuming that you linked the device using the ISY, the ISY is part of the scene. If you press a button on a KPL or SWL and it can communicate with the ISY, the lamp with flash an error.

 

Per the suggestions of many, I have tried running the computer from an extension cord in an attempt to get it away (electrically speaking) from the ISY. I see no improvement.

 

That's a good start. Try reversing the connection and run the PLM on the extension cord. You may have something else on the circuit that is preventing the signal from making it back to your load panel.

 

From one of your earlier posts - You tried plugging a Accesspoint into the PLM and had mixed results.

 

Assuming that you had a noise source/absorber between the PLM and your load panel, here's the scenario.

1) The noise/absorber prevents the PLM from reliably communicating back to the panel. Let's call this Phase A.

2) Plugging the accesspoint into the PLM establishes communication to the second accesspoint on the opposite phase (Phase .

3) Phase A still has marginal signal at the panel since the noise/absorber is still between the PLM and the panel.

 

For the above to work properly you would require a third accesspoint to "jump" over the noise/absorber and re-establish levels on phase A. Personally, I would much rather kill that problem device (I use only 1 Access point in a 4500 sq foot house).

 

You also mentioned that your X10 system appears to be functioning reliably. I have a feeling that your X10 transmitter is in a different location than your PLM. If you were to move the PLM to the same location you may find communications are stellar.

 

Hang in there, you are making progress. Keep in mind these things tend to make complete sense after you've found the problem.

 

IM

[MikeB]

Yes, I think I understand to that level. Perhaps my point was not clear. In my example, I have a switchlink that works near perfectly. It responds to ISY, and controls a module. I conclude that communication to this device must be good, and communication between this device and the module must be good. However, when ISY attempts to turn on this same module, it is not always successful, even though (based on my earlier conclusions) that communication to the switch is good, that communication between the switch and module is good (with the switch repeating the commands), and that communication between the switch and module is good. Perhaps it is hop counts or something. This was just not what I was expecting, especially in light of the claim that additional devices improves communication.

 

All that might be true, but it doesn't prove that a signal will make it from the PLM to your module within 3 hop counts. If it's taking all 3 hop counts to get to your switch, that leaves no hop counts left for the switch to repeat it to your module.

 

 

Is the ISY considered part of the scene? I assume not, but sometimes I am not so sure.

 

The PLM would be a responder of the scene.

 

 

Please keep in mind that all the above is based on my understanding of the Insteon protocol, which we have no control over. I agree that troubleshooting tools are limited, and most of it is trial and error. HOWEVER, there are systematic ways to troubleshoot these things - you don't have to necessarily do it blind.

 

Consider taking some time to turn off breakers one at a time and map out which plugs and switches are on which circuit - sometimes that can help narrow down issues, and it's certainly something that has helped me in the past.

[Brian H]

Mike; That is what I finally did in my home.

Took the time to map every electrical outlet; switch and light. To each breaker.

Well 99% anyway. There was one outlet that is never used; behind a china closet. Since I moved in and is never used.

[NewTech]

Per the suggestions of many, I have tried running the computer from an extension cord in an attempt to get it away (electrically speaking) from the ISY. I see no improvement.

 

Oh well...I will keep fooling around with things. Thanks to all who are offering suggestions and responses. I apologize for not being sufficiently clear on some of these things.

 

Ken

 

oberkc,

 

PLEASE NOTE that plugging in my computer and the other devices on that surge protector into a X-cord plugged into a different room DID NOT solve ANY of my communication problems. It wasn't until I plugged in the PLM/access point into the X-cord and the other end of the cord plugged into an outlet in our great room did my communication issues GREATLY improved.

 

Just thought I'd pass this along. My computer is now plugged back into the outlet where it was originally plugged into.

 

Good luck!

 

Mike R.

[oberkc]

What quick responses. I cannot keep up.

 

Assuming that you linked the device using the ISY

Yes, all links are created by ISY. That would mean that the ISY is part of each scene. Failure to communicate with ISY would thus cause the flashing light, then. Thanks.

 

That's a good start. Try reversing the connection and run the PLM on the extension cord.

Will do. Thanks. I thought the primary purpose of this experiment was to separate the ISY from all the devices associated with the computer. There is not much left on that circuit, but I will try, just in case I am missing something.

 

From one of your earlier posts - You tried plugging a Accesspoint into the PLM and had mixed results.

I had no conclusive results. No better. No worse. I still have an access point in the PLM. I have a total of four access points. I know that the one on the PLM is one phase and that another is the second phase. I have not checked the phases of the third and fourth.

For the above to work properly you would require a third accesspoint to "jump" over the noise/absorber and re-establish levels on phase A.

I will further identify phases for the third and fourth access points and ensure at least one is on the same phase as the PLM's access point.

You also mentioned that your X10 system appears to be functioning reliably. I have a feeling that your X10 transmitter is in a different location than your PLM.

Actually, I no don't use an X-10 transmitter. I use the ISY to trigger all X-10 timers. Some of the keypad links have X-10 addresses, but these are getting fewer and fewer. Mostly now, it is just seasonal holiday lights and a fountain. For the record, even in my case, with the troubles I am having, insteon is better than X-10. I am trying to do far more with insteon than I ever dreamed possible with X-10.

Please keep in mind that all the above is based on my understanding of the Insteon protocol, which we have no control over.

Indeed, I understand. This is an insteon (and possiblly any powerline control) issue and not ISY-99. I remain thrilled with the ISY and the support.

Consider taking some time to turn off breakers one at a time and map out which plugs and switches are on which circuit

That is a trick that I used successfully with X-10 but did not reveal anything when tried with insteon. I am starting to suspect that part of my problems are the culmination of many devices, not all being on at any given point of time. Lots of flourescent lights, for example, but not any single flourescent light. Furnace or AC. Well pumps. LED bulbs. Power supplies. I probably have more than my fair share of things many claim to be problems. Computer controlled washers/dryers. At one point, I tried unplugging almost devices. Things seemed to improve. I started plugging things back in and things stayed good for a while. Then they got worse.

 

I will try the circuit trick again someday when I get ambitous. Unfortunately, I am getting to the point of having enough insteon devices that it is hard to turn off a circuit without turning off at least one device. Some I can move, but many are hard wired, and mvoing some would mean that I have changed two variables, so the results may not be conclusive.

 

There are still some things to try, it is just that those things are seriously time-consuming, and I am not yet willing to dedicate a whole day or weekend. I was hoping that I would not have to.

 

Thanks to all.