Using spare load line on a 2477S

[pilotgeek]

Hello,

 

I have a pair of 2477S units (written about elsewhere) that are in a scene.  One of them controls a load.  The other is just a remote, and has the load line capped.  It would be great if I could take advantage of that load time for a scheduled task (night lighting), but in order to do so, the following would need to be possible:

 

• Turn on the load with no indication on the switch LEDs
• Still have the correct indication for the scene
• Not have activation of the scene trigger the local load

In other words, I want to know if it is possible to separate the user interface (the switch paddle and LEDs) from the relay that controls the load.  Seems like this might be a useful thing in general.

 

If this even possible? 

 

Cheers,

Neal

[stusviews]

Not possible.

[pilotgeek]

Bummer.  Such a waste.  Thanks Stu. 

 

I guess the micro will probably be the best bet.

[stusviews]

You may as well consider every Insteon device that includes a load wire, including the Micro Module, a waste because none allow separating the load from all the other functions. Not just Insteon devices, but Lutron, Z-Wave, X10, ZigBee and a host of others

[apostolakisl]

I've never understood why they don't make the switchlincs without the load circuitry.  The load circuitry has to add significant cost to the manufacturing and probably half of all devices (or maybe more) don't use the load portion.  They could sell them for less money and still make the same profit, pleasing both customer and manufacturer.

[stusviews]

Way back, Insteon did have a SwitchLinc without load capability at a lower price. Apparently, they didn't sell well or the cost was too low for profitability, otherwise they'd still be available. In any case, the vast majority of devices in our home that have a load wire are connected to a load. Of those with an unused load wire, most are in Tabletop enclosures, a few are part of a 3-way configuration.

 

But, the OP's request is a device that does have a load wire in which the load can be separated from other switch functions. Seems to me that that would actually be more costly.

[apostolakisl]

Way back, Insteon did have a SwitchLinc without load capability at a lower price. Apparently, they didn't sell well or the cost was too low for profitability, otherwise they'd still be available. In any case, the vast majority of devices in our home that have a load wire are connected to a load. Of those with an unused load wire, most are in Tabletop enclosures, a few are part of a 3-way configuration.

 

But, the OP's request is a device that does have a load wire in which the load can be separated from other switch functions. Seems to me that that would actually be more costly.

 

Yes, I understand his request.  However, the logic was that he is "wasting" that load capable device by not having a load attached.  You can solve the "waste" by a) figureing a way to use the load capacity, or b ) substituting a non-load capable device.  Since option a is not possible and super unlikely to ever be, I was pondering why a option b isn't addressed.  I don't recall ever seeing SH sell the switch you refer to.  It must have been quite a long time ago.

 

I do find it surprising that you don't have any 3 way applications in your home, aside from perhaps your table top units.  Most switches in my home are 3 way (or 4) resulting quite a few unused load capable devices.

 

It may just be that the marginal cost of adding load capacity is so small that it isn't worth it for them.  But somehow, it seems like the load circuitry would be the most expensive part of the switch. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by apostolakisl

[pilotgeek]

You may as well consider every Insteon device that includes a load wire, including the Micro Module, a waste because none allow separating the load from all the other functions. Not just Insteon devices, but Lutron, Z-Wave, X10, ZigBee and a host of others

Stu,

 

Kind of.  Only the one's where I wanted to use the load wire for another purpose are a waste

 

Also, to clarify, I meant that it is a waste because the hardware could certainly be made to do what I am referring to.  The firmware is just not setup that way.  Such is life.

 

Regards,

Neal

[lilyoyo1]

Yes, I understand his request. However, the logic was that he is "wasting" that load capable device by not having a load attached. You can solve the "waste" by a) figureing a way to use the load capacity, or b ) substituting a non-load capable device. Since option a is not possible and super unlikely to ever be, I was pondering why a option b isn't addressed. I don't recall ever seeing SH sell the switch you refer to. It must have been quite a long time ago.

 

I do find it surprising that you don't have any 3 way applications in your home, aside from perhaps your table top units. Most switches in my home are 3 way (or 4) resulting quite a few unused load capable devices.

 

It may just be that the marginal cost of adding load capacity is so small that it isn't worth it for them. But somehow, it seems like the load circuitry would be the most expensive part of the switch.

There are multiple reasons for this.

 

1st is cost. To carry a device that has limited use didn't seem worthwhile.

 

2nd is simplicity. People mess up more often than what shows on these forums. As an oem/retailer, youbrun The risk of people not reading (happens far to often) and simply buying the wrong product because they see the same part cheaper. This in turns leads to more phone calls and questions for cst.

 

3rd is options. By having all devices standardized, switches can be used in multiple places. Maybe your needs change or you move. If half your switches are remotes, then you're purchasing more devices when you could've simply swapped for another one

 

There were a couple of more reasons but I don't remember them all

[larryllix]

I also prefer one less device to understand and keeping the style list down to one device. I use three way systems in my house but all Switchlincs have their own loads. I use programs that can selectively act as three-way switches or not.

 

Typically it works like this. Tap on only gets it own load. Double tap On, gets both loads on. Same with Off logic. This allows me to remotely turn a light on at the other end of the house (wrap around deck and porch lighting) and then turn the local one off. Useful occasionally.

 

Alexa has made much of this program logic redundant now. In the end the total and independent control of as many finer lighting components works better.  Dimming can be done by ISY and is never wanted during 3-way operations.

 

eg.

Alexa, Turn On outside lights

Alexa. Turn On side deck lights

Alexa. Turn On porch lights

Alexa. Turn on runway lights (under side deck)

...and the Off reciprocals

[stusviews]

I do find it surprising that you don't have any 3 way applications in your home, aside from perhaps your table top units.  Most switches in my home are 3 way (or 4) resulting quite a few unused load capable devices.

 

Reread my post. I did indicate that,

 

 

Of those with an unused load wire, most are in Tabletop enclosures, a few are part of a 3-way configuration.

 

 

Actually, nearly every KPL button is part of a multiway configuration, but only a few SwitchLincs have a "wasted" load wire

[apostolakisl]

There are multiple reasons for this.

 

1st is cost. To carry a device that has limited use didn't seem worthwhile.

 

2nd is simplicity. People mess up more often than what shows on these forums. As an oem/retailer, youbrun The risk of people not reading (happens far to often) and simply buying the wrong product because they see the same part cheaper. This in turns leads to more phone calls and questions for cst.

 

3rd is options. By having all devices standardized, switches can be used in multiple places. Maybe your needs change or you move. If half your switches are remotes, then you're purchasing more devices when you could've simply swapped for another one

 

There were a couple of more reasons but I don't remember them all

 

I don't think it is any of these.  I think it is simple profit motive.  They figured it wouldn't change their profit.  Cause

 

1) I think there are lots of people who like me have lots of 3 and 4 ways.  I would probably have 40% non-load bearing if it saved me money.  You'll notice zwave does have a 3-way non-load switch in their setup.  So demand seems to exist.

2) Insteon sells a "non-load" thermostat and a real thermostat that look exactly the same.   The non-load is cheaper.  Do they have troubles?  I don't know, but if they did I would expect a little more warning in the description.  Plus, there are already 4 Insteon switchlincs that look identical, so if you're just looking at pictures, you'll get that wrong 75% of the time.

3) Don't buy this one either.  Once you install a switchlinc, odds are you remove only because of failure of the switch or simply giving up on Insteon.  I don't envision a whole lot of people rearranging their switches just cause.  

[apostolakisl]

Reread my post. I did indicate that,

 

 

Actually, nearly every KPL button is part of a multiway configuration, but only a few SwitchLincs have a "wasted" load wire

Not following you.

 

You said

 

In any case, the vast majority of devices in our home that have a load wire are connected to a load. 

 

 

I find it surprising that "the vast majority" have a load attached.  You must have very few 3/4 way's or simply don't care to automate the ones you have.

[stusviews]

Our home is very automated, laziness rules. In particular, we don't need to ambulate to control lights, both interior and exterior, gates, window coverings, sound systems, video, etc. We do have to relocate our body in order to cook, load the dishwasher, do laundry and/or go out to eat or fetch a beer or glass of wine. Even our wine bottle opener is automated

[apostolakisl]

Our home is very automated, laziness rules. In particular, we don't need to ambulate to control lights, both interior and exterior, gates, window coverings, sound systems, video, etc. We do have to relocate our body in order to cook, load the dishwasher, do laundry and/or go out to eat or fetch a beer or glass of wine. Even our wine bottle opener is automated

 

So, did you build your house with just one switch for each load or have you capped off the additional locations in your 3 ways?  Personally, I haven't yet learned how to teleport from room to room, so I do still walk through the doors and nothing says convenience like having a switch right there.

[lilyoyo1]

I don't think it is any of these. I think it is simple profit motive. They figured it wouldn't change their profit. Cause

 

1) I think there are lots of people who like me have lots of 3 and 4 ways. I would probably have 40% non-load bearing if it saved me money. You'll notice zwave does have a 3-way non-load switch in their setup. So demand seems to exist.

2) Insteon sells a "non-load" thermostat and a real thermostat that look exactly the same. The non-load is cheaper. Do they have troubles? I don't know, but if they did I would expect a little more warning in the description. Plus, there are already 4 Insteon switchlincs that look identical, so if you're just looking at pictures, you'll get that wrong 75% of the time.

3) Don't buy this one either. Once you install a switchlinc, odds are you remove only because of failure of the switch or simply giving up on Insteon. I don't envision a whole lot of people rearranging their switches just cause.

Being that my info comes straight from the horses mouth means it is their reasons cited.

 

Yes zwave and X10 both have/had remote only devices....along with a high return date from smarthome customers who purchased the wrong thing when they carried a larger selection of those items.

 

Maybe for your install having remote capabilities works. But for many others, having full capabilities has an even greater benefit. Either way, insteon determined having one extra device that did nothing simply wasn't worth the cost

[apostolakisl]

Being that my info comes straight from the horses mouth means it is their reasons cited.

 

Yes zwave and X10 both have/had remote only devices....along with a high return date from smarthome customers who purchased the wrong thing when they carried a larger selection of those items.

 

Maybe for your install having remote capabilities works. But for many others, having full capabilities has an even greater benefit. Either way, insteon determined having one extra device that did nothing simply wasn't worth the cost

 

Did SH publish this information?  If someone on the phone told you this, well we all have had curious conversations with people on the phone at SH where plenty of information that was incorrect either because of ignorance or just to shut you up.  The tact switch issue comes to mind until finally the owned up to it. And the excuses on the failing PLM's seemed to have been company policy until just the past few months.

 

Of course having full capabiity on a switch where the load is capped does not benefit anyone.

 

If indeed SH had a high return rate, I place the blame squarely on the item description.  It would be easy to make it clear what it did not do.  SH sells a "slave" thermostat right now.  Frankly, the description on it could be better and I wouldn't be surprised if they get returns on it because of that.

[stusviews]

Our home is very automated, laziness rules. In particular, we don't need to ambulate to control lights, both interior and exterior, gates, window coverings, sound systems, video, etc. We do have to relocate our body in order to cook, load the dishwasher, do laundry and/or go out to eat or fetch a beer or glass of wine. Even our wine bottle opener is automated

 

So, did you build your house with just one switch for each load or have you capped off the additional locations in your 3 ways?  Personally, I haven't yet learned how to teleport from room to room, so I do still walk through the doors and nothing says convenience like having a switch right there.

 

Our home, built nearly 100 years ago, did not have electric at all. Although we have all the plans and permits, we don't know when the 2^nd owner added electric power. We bought the house just over two decades ago. Surprisingly, we're only the 3^rd owners in all this time. The second owner expanded the house and we added to that.

 

In any case, there were no 3-way configurations at all when we purchased. For convenience, as I automated (originally X10, then Insteon), I added bunches of TableTop enclosures with KPLs. There's no place to sit (or lie) in this house without a TableTop or phone within reach. In-wall Keypads are ubiquitous. So are Motion Sensors.

 

And with the advent of the Portal and ten in use Echo devices, we rarely touch a switch. Even our sound and video systems are primarily voice controlled. It's been fun all the way. Not bad for someone closing in on eight decades

[apostolakisl]

Our home, built nearly 100 years ago, did not have electric at all. Although we have all the plans and permits, we don't know when the 2^nd owner added electric power. We bought the house just over two decades ago. Surprisingly, we're only the 3^rd owners in all this time. The second owner expanded the house and we added to that.

 

In any case, there were no 3-way configurations at all when we purchased. For convenience, as I automated (originally X10, then Insteon), I added bunches of TableTop enclosures with KPLs. There's no place to sit (or lie) in this house without a TableTop or phone within reach. In-wall Keypads are ubiquitous. So are Motion Sensors.

 

And with the advent of the Portal and ten in use Echo devices, we rarely touch a switch. Even our sound and video systems are primarily voice controlled. It's been fun all the way. Not bad for someone closing in on eight decades

Yes, well it makes perfect sense that a house retrofitted for electric would be lacking in 3 ways.  In your situation, Insteon is quite a game changer.  I would say, however, that this sort of home is the exception, not the rule.

 

Seems like these would be good for you   http://www.smarthome.com/mini-remote-switch-4-pack.html  

 

I'm not sure just how they work, I assume you can still push and hold for dimming scenes.  More or less, these switches are the load free switch I've talking about at the lower price.  Just I wouldn't want to deal with charging them, so I'm not doing these until they come out with an AC powered one.

[lilyoyo1]

Did SH publish this information? If someone on the phone told you this, well we all have had curious conversations with people on the phone at SH where plenty of information that was incorrect either because of ignorance or just to shut you up. The tact switch issue comes to mind until finally the owned up to it. And the excuses on the failing PLM's seemed to have been company policy until just the past few months.

 

Of course having full capabiity on a switch where the load is capped does not benefit anyone.

 

If indeed SH had a high return rate, I place the blame squarely on the item description. It would be easy to make it clear what it did not do. SH sells a "slave" thermostat right now. Frankly, the description on it could be better and I wouldn't be surprised if they get returns on it because of that.

Unlike you, I don't need to deal with people on the phone or go off second hand information. As I stated, my information came from the source, not cst.

 

In regards to better information, unfortunately many people simply fail to read the information at hand. They will see 2 like things and purchase the cheaper of the 2. This is shown all over other companies webpages. Go to Amazon's, Lowe's or home Depot's website and you'll see questions asked and the information they are asking for will be in the first line.

 

Unfortunately people are lazy. You can't count on people to read let alone research before they buy.

[Teken]

Unlike you, I don't need to deal with people on the phone or go off second hand information. As I stated, my information came from the source, not cst.

 

In regards to better information, unfortunately many people simply fail to read the information at hand. They will see 2 like things and purchase the cheaper of the 2. This is shown all over other companies webpages. Go to Amazon's, Lowe's or home Depot's website and you'll see questions asked and the information they are asking for will be in the first line.

 

Unfortunately people are lazy. You can't count on people to read let alone research before they buy.

 

 

LOL . . .

 

Or ~ Reading follow up reviews where the product met all the users needs and desires. Yet, these stupid fools still provided a 1~3 star rating on the product instead of a 5?!?!?

 

I can't imagine being a upstanding vendor who makes a solid product, offers service after the sale, and still gets hammered on reviews in the public!!!

 

As an aside there's one Amazon review which I believe has been going on for five years. Its quite the doozy and for the life of me can't recall what its about. All I know is the guy bought something that had nothing to do with what he needed. Even after asking tons of people who told him to purchase the correct hardware. He ignored everyone and purchased the incorrect hardware and then has the balls to come back to Amazon saying the product didn't suite the use case?

 

That was a real WTF . . .

[lilyoyo1]

LOL . . .

 

Or ~ Reading follow up reviews where the product met all the users needs and desires. Yet, these stupid fools still provided a 1~3 star rating on the product instead of a 5?!?!?

 

I can't imagine being a upstanding vendor who makes a solid product, offers service after the sale, and still gets hammered on reviews in the public!!!

 

As an aside there's one Amazon review which I believe has been going on for five years. Its quite the doozy and for the life of me can't recall what its about. All I know is the guy bought something that had nothing to do with what he needed. Even after asking tons of people who told him to purchase the correct hardware. He ignored everyone and purchased the incorrect hardware and then has the balls to come back to Amazon saying the product didn't suite the use case?

 

That was a real WTF . . .

I didnt see that particular review but I've seen plenty like it. Many times its because its the cheaper item than what was recommended. A friend of mine said it best; "Make something dummy proof and someone will come along and prove you wrong".

Edited August 24, 2017 by lilyoyo1

[Teken]

I didnt see that particular review but I've seen plenty like it. Many times its because its the cheaper item than what was recommended. A friend of mine said it best. Make something dummy proof and someone will come along and prove you wrong

 

Sorry to the OP ~ Another review that had milk pouring out my nose.

[lilyoyo1]

Sorry to the OP ~ Another review that had milk pouring out my nose.

That one is priceless.   

[stusviews]

Yes, well it makes perfect sense that a house retrofitted for electric would be lacking in 3 ways.  In your situation, Insteon is quite a game changer.  I would say, however, that this sort of home is the exception, not the rule.

 

Seems like these would be good for you   http://www.smarthome.com/mini-remote-switch-4-pack.html

 

I'm not sure just how they work, I assume you can still push and hold for dimming scenes.  More or less, these switches are the load free switch I've talking about at the lower price.  Just I wouldn't want to deal with charging them, so I'm not doing these until they come out with an AC powered one.

 

Nearly every switch has been replaced with a KPL (each and every switch has been replaced with an Insteon or other HA device). We also use 4 and 8-button Mini Remotes as well as several original Insteon remotes (2440). I replaced most single-gang boxes with 2-gang boxes.

 

There's no room entry that doesn't offer control for, not just everything in that room, but adjacent rooms as well.

 

One device for both lighting and windows

 

Left device=lighting; right device=window coverings

 

4-gang added where 4-gang didn't fit (between window and door)

 

Oops, images are rotated.

Edited August 25, 2017 by stusviews